I got on for one quick game as a study break and it happened to be David Kim. It was only my second match after being placed in a platinum division (for those who don't know what this means: it was my second game that didn't involve me bashing some newb and learning nothing)
Map: Lost Temple. It was strikingly similar to a BW game. He was Z and FE'd and I did some quick Zealot harrass from 1 gate, then he tried some Roach/Ling harrass a little later that I fend off with a few Zealots, then I got obs to see what he's doing.
I saw that he was still just on Roach/Ling so I went Zealot/Colossus (no idea if this works at all) and sent my obs around map to check for hidden expansions. When I'm ready to attack, Mutas fly in to my base. I attack his base, destroy his army, kill all (both) his hatcheries, all his drones. He saves his base with the mutas after killing most of my probes. I build stalkers while the mutas are away but turns out they are horrible against mutas.
I haven't watched the rep but I think he put Spire down right after my obs left his base. I definitely should have kept my obs looking around as long as possible and delegated map scouting to a probe.
I don't know how many phoenix/cannon (or whatever the most defense is) I would've needed to survive his mutas. Might be that I was doomed no matter what or it might be I could've tweaked my build to prevent mutas from doing any damage (though I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to go on offense with Zealot/Colossi).
Super fun to play a game and have so much to learn. Can't wait to start figuring things out. Gotta wait about a week before I can put that kinda time into it though TSL 10k nom nom nom
On February 20 2010 09:11 Boblion wrote: Can someone make a youtube video for those who don't have the beta ? :p
Gj Nony.
Agreed. I dont wanna try downloading that "replay crack", just incase.
Nony is just about my favorite foreign SC player right now, so I cant wait to see some more SC2 games. I just hope he practices enough BW to win this TSL first -_-
Mutalisks seem really really good against Protoss to me Phoenixes don't seem to be a very strong counter, especially since they get swatted by corrupters.
On February 20 2010 09:15 N3rV[Green] wrote: Pretty soon I see David Kim going down to the TLers. People are getting better reallllly fast.
Even psyonic is pretty good xD
Yeah, he has 5 losses last time I checked. But I think he's not trying his hardest to win every game but rather doing a variety of things. I think my mechanics in SC2 are pretty good (I really need my F keys argghhh) but I have nooooo idea how to do anything "properly" strategy-wise. There are tons of people who are better than me right now but I'll catch up super fast, especially when I have genius Artosis to tell me what greatest stuff currently is :D
On February 20 2010 09:22 Pufftrees wrote: Thanks for sharing, watching it now. How long were you 1st place in Gold before they placed you in Platinum Nony?
I got put straight into Platinum after going 10-0 in placement matches. The placement matches were really easy for me. They involved me building a bunch of probes and building any unit I wanted and attacking.
Lol I watched your placement matches in class cause I was bored. It was like, hey 5 minutes another win for nony. I hope mine are just as easy when wave 2 comes around =D
I think you really need archons to fight mutas. It's like going reaver/zealot in sc1 from the sound of things. I've done that and it makes all zerg ground splat, especially with good reaver micro. The problem is that you have no useful tech for fighting mutas, so really it's allin. I wonder if zealot/collosus is the same way.
Have you tried opening 2 stargate pheonix/voidray? I wanna see that =D
I have slow upload curse my American Internet the vid's probably will be up in the next 2 hours but probably wont be done for 4 hours turning into HD on youtube. 720p :D i don't have a monitor to my computer that goes to 1080p or my tv. dual 1680x1050 for me
Just got on for a quickie and figured that by the time most people tuned in, I'd be turning the stream off again. But I should've done it anyway to get it in my video on demand archive.
Outstanding BW players will rape so much in Stacraft 2, that's gonna be painful.
Once people like Nony, Morrow, Idra, any kind of good mechanical players will have a clear idea of how the game works, they will be invincible for a lonnnng time.
I expect SC2 scene to be very similar to BW's. And David Kim reign will be very very very very short.
(God I got banned six hours before the beta came out, that's just the two most painful days on TL since I am there. Never overflame Idra ever again.)
On February 20 2010 09:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Outstanding BW players will rape so much in Stacraft 2, that's gonna be painful.
Once people like Nony, Morrow, Idra, any kind of good mechanical players will have a clear idea of how the game works, they will be invincible for a lonnnng time.
I expect SC2 scene to be very similar to BW's. And David Kim reign will be very very very very short.
(God I got banned six hours before the beta came out, that's just the two most painful days on TL since I am there. Never overflame Idra ever again.)
Lol. Yeah I saw u get temp-banned, I was chatting to you at the time. I'm glad you've taken it so well though. Good attitude
In order for Blizzard to balance the game right I think David Kim should be the best player at the moment. This doesn't mean he will be the best player at the end, but in order for the game to be right when it is released David should know which BO's are good against different races and use them to his advantage. GL Nony, I know you gonna need it in SC1 and SCII.
I think someone asked about Protoss counters to Mutas and I know that Archons are absolutely sick they just melt mutas so fast. Im not certain on the timings but Im pretty sure you can have at least 2 archons by the time 6 or more mutas would be arriving at your base. The build would be something like 2 gate opening into the Citadel (not sure what its called now)
On February 20 2010 10:02 Tomer wrote: Nony Goodluck going for TSL Championship!!
I think someone asked about Protoss counters to Mutas and I know that Archons are absolutely sick they just melt mutas so fast. Im not certain on the timings but Im pretty sure you can have at least 2 archons by the time 6 or more mutas would be arriving at your base. The build would be something like 2 gate opening into the Citadel (not sure what its called now)
This would be the build I'd want to try next but it'll hinge on how well archon/zealot can survive against non-muta builds. If I'm gonna stand no chance against a lot of hydra/roach with archon/zealot then it'll start to get tricky. But, for example, in BW, I can go zealot/archon and they can go straight mass hydra and it obviously isn't the best situation for Protoss but Protoss can definitely get a few cannons up and wait for storm and be fine.
I don't know if I should be posting this but there has been a crack that allows anyone to install sc2 beta and view replay on it but that's the only thing you can do so far.
right now mutalisks are totally imbalanced vs protoss. they literally have no really strong counter. archons suck, their splash radius is tiny. phoenix is not strong enough, only single target dmg and they also die fast to corruptors. stalkers get raped. psistorm is ok but much easier to avoid dmg since the dmg is lower than sc1. im sure itll get patched eventually. but right now w/o mutalisks zerg would probably be at a disadvantage vs protoss
On February 20 2010 09:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Outstanding BW players will rape so much in Stacraft 2, that's gonna be painful.
Once people like Nony, Morrow, Idra, any kind of good mechanical players will have a clear idea of how the game works, they will be invincible for a lonnnng time.
I expect SC2 scene to be very similar to BW's. And David Kim reign will be very very very very short.
(God I got banned six hours before the beta came out, that's just the two most painful days on TL since I am there. Never overflame Idra ever again.)
Lol. Yeah I saw u get temp-banned, I was chatting to you at the time. I'm glad you've taken it so well though. Good attitude
Believe me I suffered a lot. That was like... the worst day in history of starcraft to get temp banned. Being a dick has a cost sometimes, hehehe.
Mutalisk are extremely expensive in relation to roaches and hydralisk and I find it difficult to even start a spire (200/200) without falling behind in army size and risk getting run over by the protoss ball.
I can see them being used to combat a colossus build but I don't really see any reason to tech a spire whereas you can just make roaches that have more health and damage or a nydus canal if you have the extra min/gas.
Here's a game I had against David Kim (TvT). It was one of my first games after being placed in Gold so I had almost no clue what I was doing. I did learn from this replay how to do the factory/starport reactor trick so it wasn't such a bad game in the end.
On February 20 2010 11:41 Liquid`NonY wrote: NonY for the rest of TSL2, then Tyler. I will only be using Tyler for SC2
Doing the Korean thing and just going by your name, eh? I still think all of us Americans will still call you NonY though, I don't think using "normal" names are gonna catch on outside of Korea, lol. Anyway, stay away from SC2 man, we need you to win the TSL!! Btw, great job taking down Idra, I'm glad you guys provided a fun series. I know I still wish you were in Korea so we could see you on TV, but I hope everything goes well with you and your family. Take Care.
On February 20 2010 13:01 MaD.pYrO wrote: Was david kim being polite towards you? Since he didn't use queen... Seems stupid..
yeah i was wondering the same thing... I would have thought building a queen for larva infusion asap is the best way to boost economy (seems better than an fe to me)
Why can't you do both! zerg mine slower then toss anyways the expo is needed imo just to keep up. The queen allows you to pop more drones and zerglings at the same time but doesn't open a new mineral patch to mine.
On February 20 2010 13:01 MaD.pYrO wrote: Was david kim being polite towards you? Since he didn't use queen... Seems stupid..
I watched the replay, he did build a single queen and had it going between the hatcheries infusing.
yeah we know that, but normally you build your quuen like right when the pool finishes (or like 3 supply after). David Kim played a friggin long ass time w/o a queen.
On February 20 2010 13:01 MaD.pYrO wrote: Was david kim being polite towards you? Since he didn't use queen... Seems stupid..
I watched the replay, he did build a single queen and had it going between the hatcheries infusing.
yeah we know that, but normally you build your quuen like right when the pool finishes (or like 3 supply after). David Kim played a friggin long ass time w/o a queen.
Queen gives you 4 extra larva if you're not making the money to do anyhing with it why get it?
Very impressive performance considering the experience difference. David kim has been playing forever, and Nony for what, 2 days? By next week you will destroy him.
On February 20 2010 13:01 MaD.pYrO wrote: Was david kim being polite towards you? Since he didn't use queen... Seems stupid..
I watched the replay, he did build a single queen and had it going between the hatcheries infusing.
yeah we know that, but normally you build your quuen like right when the pool finishes (or like 3 supply after). David Kim played a friggin long ass time w/o a queen.
Kim does seem to mess around a lot. In the "LOL baneling" game from Day1 against psyonic I think he 3 hatched pretty quickly off the start, which as far as I can tell would be pretty suicidal against any sort of zealot aggression :s
I could easily be wrong though. Obviously Kim knows more
I checked up SC2 Armory, and unless their info is wrong, these units are good against Mutas and Corrupters:
Phoenix, Archon.
Phoenix does + damage to light armor, which Mutas are. Mutas and Corrupters deal normal damage back to it, since it's light armor. Corrupters don't get the + bonus damage.
Archons do + damage to biological units, which Mutas and Corrupters both are. Mutas deal normal damage back to it, and Corrupters can't target it. It also has an AOE.
Of course, this doesn't take into account health and damage per resource spent, so maybe Mutas are still good because they're more resource efficient than Archons and Phoenixes.
Also, Nony's build didn't incorporate Templar tech, or Starports, so neither were an option for him in that game .
Oh, and here are the SC2 Armory profiles for all the related units:
EDIT: Was digging around some more, and apparently sentries deal bonus damage to biological units, and they can target air units. They might be a good counter for Mutas in a Zealot+Colossus build. Then again, they do only have 40 HP and 40 shields............
On February 20 2010 15:20 FrozenArbiter wrote: They would also give a 2+ armor boost vs the mutas attacks... However, 100 gas is quite a lot if you are already going colossii :S
Zealot + Sentries then? What counters those? Are Zealots with Charge backed up by the Sentry's armor buff still bad against Roaches with speed upgrade?
On February 20 2010 15:45 heroyi wrote: omg way too close of a call lmao.fucking mutas.
i was wondering how the HT are. i hear they reduced the dmg of the storm and reduced the range the ht can cast them.
i really wanna play toss, but if protoss is still weak then terran i go.
HT may be weaker, but Colossi seem way, way more powerful than Reavers.
They're faster, have similar dps, similar range when Colossi range is upgraded, can walk up walls, and rape worker lines much better than Reavers did, since one sweep of their lasers melts numerous drones and probes, while SCVs require 2 sweeps to kill. Their lasers also don't bug out the way Scarabs do.
Colossi are also at a similar place on the tech tree that HT are in SC2 and SC1.
Add to this the fact that HT and DT now require separate tech buildings, and Colossi seem to be a much stronger option for Protoss anti-ground than HT were in SC1.
Zealot + Colossi are comparable to SC1's Zealot + Dragoon + HT, in that both unit compositions have melee damage soakers, ranged damage dealers, and AOE. The difference is, Colossi don't require energy to do ranged AOE damage, but they cost a lot.
Add in 2 or 3 Sentries for their damage-reducing shield, and it doesn't seem like Zerg has a ground unit composition that can beat Zealot + Sentry + Colossus. Old Ultraling would have lings get melted by Colossus, and then Ultras would be left alone vs. the Protoss army. Hydralisks suck vs. Zealots. Roaches suck vs. Colossus.
On February 20 2010 15:20 FrozenArbiter wrote: They would also give a 2+ armor boost vs the mutas attacks... However, 100 gas is quite a lot if you are already going colossii :S
Zealot + Sentries then? What counters those? Are Zealots with Charge backed up by the Sentry's armor buff still bad against Roaches with speed upgrade?
I'm not sure you could kill them if they have burrow? + If he mixed in banelings he'd basically rape your entire army I think.
But I haven't tested this, so it's worth trying :O It's an interesting mix for sure.
On February 20 2010 15:45 heroyi wrote: omg way too close of a call lmao.fucking mutas.
i was wondering how the HT are. i hear they reduced the dmg of the storm and reduced the range the ht can cast them.
i really wanna play toss, but if protoss is still weak then terran i go.
HT may be weaker, but Colossi seem way, way more powerful than Reavers.
They're faster, have similar dps, similar range when Colossi range is upgraded, can walk up walls, and rape worker lines much better than Reavers did, since one sweep of their lasers melts numerous drones and probes, while SCVs require 2 sweeps to kill. Their lasers also don't bug out the way Scarabs do.
Colossi are also at a similar place on the tech tree that HT are in SC2 and SC1.
Add to this the fact that HT and DT now require separate tech buildings, and Colossi seem to be a much stronger option for Protoss anti-ground than HT were in SC1.
Zealot + Colossi are comparable to SC1's Zealot + Dragoon + HT, in that both unit compositions have melee damage soakers, ranged damage dealers, and AOE. The difference is, Colossi don't require energy to do ranged AOE damage, but they cost a lot.
Add in 2 or 3 Sentries for their damage-reducing shield, and it doesn't seem like Zerg has a ground unit composition that can beat Zealot + Sentry + Colossus. Old Ultraling would have lings get melted by Colossus, and then Ultras would be left alone vs. the Protoss army. Hydralisks suck vs. Zealots. Roaches suck vs. Colossus.
well i mean the colossi is one of the reasons why i wanna try toss now but how does toss counter mutas which poses so much problem for toss...
idk once everyone gets their hand on the copy im sure my questions will be answered and new questions will arise.
lol wow. Nony lost because of literally 1 cm, david kim the bonjwa was LUCKY as hell. if his observer was just 1 cm lower, he would have spotted the spire, but he didn't, and so lost to mutas... close game!
On February 20 2010 15:45 heroyi wrote: omg way too close of a call lmao.fucking mutas.
i was wondering how the HT are. i hear they reduced the dmg of the storm and reduced the range the ht can cast them.
i really wanna play toss, but if protoss is still weak then terran i go.
HT may be weaker, but Colossi seem way, way more powerful than Reavers.
They're faster, have similar dps, similar range when Colossi range is upgraded, can walk up walls, and rape worker lines much better than Reavers did, since one sweep of their lasers melts numerous drones and probes, while SCVs require 2 sweeps to kill. Their lasers also don't bug out the way Scarabs do.
Colossi are also at a similar place on the tech tree that HT are in SC2 and SC1.
Add to this the fact that HT and DT now require separate tech buildings, and Colossi seem to be a much stronger option for Protoss anti-ground than HT were in SC1.
Zealot + Colossi are comparable to SC1's Zealot + Dragoon + HT, in that both unit compositions have melee damage soakers, ranged damage dealers, and AOE. The difference is, Colossi don't require energy to do ranged AOE damage, but they cost a lot.
Add in 2 or 3 Sentries for their damage-reducing shield, and it doesn't seem like Zerg has a ground unit composition that can beat Zealot + Sentry + Colossus. Old Ultraling would have lings get melted by Colossus, and then Ultras would be left alone vs. the Protoss army. Hydralisks suck vs. Zealots. Roaches suck vs. Colossus.
Zerg rolls over this with Corruptor/Baneling. Cheaper min/gas cost than zealot/colossus (keep in mind, sentries are 100 gas) and gives you room to add in things like roaches, hydras, or some extra lings/expos. Banelings do a massive amount of damage to zealot based armies, and the zerglings sweep up whatever is left.
i watched the game on youtube now and it was a pretty unlucky game for you tyler... your obs was still in his base when he started the spire but it was slightly to far in the top of it.
anyways, nice game definitly one of the best i've seen so far.
Was David Kim aware of who he was playing? I i'm guessing so, but going by Nony's stream he is usuing just Tyler, so its possible someone might miss the connection.
On February 20 2010 15:45 heroyi wrote: omg way too close of a call lmao.fucking mutas.
i was wondering how the HT are. i hear they reduced the dmg of the storm and reduced the range the ht can cast them.
i really wanna play toss, but if protoss is still weak then terran i go.
HT may be weaker, but Colossi seem way, way more powerful than Reavers.
They're faster, have similar dps, similar range when Colossi range is upgraded, can walk up walls, and rape worker lines much better than Reavers did, since one sweep of their lasers melts numerous drones and probes, while SCVs require 2 sweeps to kill. Their lasers also don't bug out the way Scarabs do.
Colossi are also at a similar place on the tech tree that HT are in SC2 and SC1.
Add to this the fact that HT and DT now require separate tech buildings, and Colossi seem to be a much stronger option for Protoss anti-ground than HT were in SC1.
Zealot + Colossi are comparable to SC1's Zealot + Dragoon + HT, in that both unit compositions have melee damage soakers, ranged damage dealers, and AOE. The difference is, Colossi don't require energy to do ranged AOE damage, but they cost a lot.
Add in 2 or 3 Sentries for their damage-reducing shield, and it doesn't seem like Zerg has a ground unit composition that can beat Zealot + Sentry + Colossus. Old Ultraling would have lings get melted by Colossus, and then Ultras would be left alone vs. the Protoss army. Hydralisks suck vs. Zealots. Roaches suck vs. Colossus.
Zerg rolls over this with Corruptor/Baneling. Cheaper min/gas cost than zealot/colossus (keep in mind, sentries are 100 gas) and gives you room to add in things like roaches, hydras, or some extra lings/expos. Banelings do a massive amount of damage to zealot based armies, and the zerglings sweep up whatever is left.
Are Corrupters able to cast spells while burrowed? If not, wouldn't the huge range of Colossi kill them before they got a good sized ensnare off?
And, even if they can cast while burrowed, a simply observer reveals them, and Colossi focus-fire would kill them.
Sentries could use their wall to block off incoming Banelings.
EDIT: Just checked SC2 Armory. Banelings have 30 HP. One sweep of a Colossus' lasers kills any caught in the AOE.
A decent-sized Colossus force could hold off dozens of Banelings, unless they get a very wide surround on them.
Also, lol I though you meant Infestors in your post. I forgot air units can hit the Colossus.
In that case, simply build anti-air, preferably Phoenixes that can't be killed by Banelings, or Stalkers that don't take bonus damage from Banelings. Place your anti-air in front of your Colossi, and mow down the Corrupters while the Colossi mow down the Banelings.
On February 20 2010 19:34 SD-Spirit wrote: after viewing this rep and few others i am starting to worry about the fact that protos has completely NO ANTI AIR. literely nothing
You're joking, right?
Stalkers rape Corrupters. Phoenixes should kill Mutas, Archons kill both, Sentries also kill both.
I noticed after you killed his main it revealed the map to you.. but he actually ended up wining with the mutas.. I can see this being a problem if you have a close game where the win comes down to units the left, or you perhaps need to hide a building to destroy you opponents base first.
Phonixes are very week. They do not kill mutas at all, maby when in overhelming number. If terran makes like 3-4 BC - its game. i saw a guy trying to counter this first with about 10 stalkers - they just wanished - one bc lost like 80%of helth - then he reinforce with like 6-8 phoenixes and they just died in seconds. one bc died thats all. And that suppose to be the best protoses anti-air counters ? Also i do not tink that archons are such a good counter against mutas now - mutas are no longer flying around stuck toghther, and building placement will always be a problem for archons to move around. Protoss needs some good ground to air counter - but there is none so far i guess.
On February 20 2010 19:39 otmar wrote: I noticed after you killed his main it revealed the map to you.. but he actually ended up wining with the mutas.. I can see this being a problem if you have a close game where the win comes down to units the left, or you perhaps need to hide a building to destroy you opponents base first.
I really like this feature in low end games to prevent hiding buildings and whatnot, but yeah when this game gets really competitive I hope its not going to be there. Competitive players will gg (or in certain cases, just leave) when its clear the games over, there would be no benefit in revealing buildings. There would be negatives though, particularly in tricky base-trading games.
edit: just thought of the perfect example. Savior vs TT on Neo Requiem. How anti-climactic would that game have been.
On February 20 2010 19:55 SD-Spirit wrote: Phonixes are very week. They do not kill mutas at all, maby when in overhelming number. If terran makes like 3-4 BC - its game. i saw a guy trying to counter this first with about 10 stalkers - they just wanished - one bc lost like 80%of helth - then he reinforce with like 6-8 phoenixes and they just died in seconds. one bc died thats all. And that suppose to be the best protoses anti-air counters ? Also i do not tink that archons are such a good counter against mutas now - mutas are no longer flying around stuck toghther, and building placement will always be a problem for archons to move around. Protoss needs some good ground to air counter - but there is none so far i guess.
You're not taking into account unit and attack type. Mutalisk is a light flyer and Pheonix does +5 to light units.
Pheonix 120hp 60 shield 5 (+5 to light) * 2 = 20 dmg to mutas Range 4 Muta 120hp 9 dmg to pheonix + extra hits. Range 3
So the pheonix should be strong against mutas (but awful against BCs like you guessed)
Getting a stargate and 3 or 4 Pheonix's seems to be super clumsy though, compared to the zerg just putting down a spire and being able to hatch as many muta as possible.
in SC1 muta are a staple unit for zerg and building a stargate plus corsairs has become standard, but right now don't zerg also have banelings and roaches as?
It seems like a simple tech switch would be really hard on toss, forcing him to spam cannons or pheonixes
*This is pure theory-crafting! I DO NOT have the beta.
edit: like, getting a stargate and then builidng multiple Pheonixes would take way longer than building a spire and hatching muta...i guess the toss could do it as part of his build preemptively..but that just seems super clumsy to me..
On February 20 2010 19:39 otmar wrote: I noticed after you killed his main it revealed the map to you.. but he actually ended up wining with the mutas.. I can see this being a problem if you have a close game where the win comes down to units the left, or you perhaps need to hide a building to destroy you opponents base first.
I really like this feature in low end games to prevent hiding buildings and whatnot, but yeah when this game gets really competitive I hope its not going to be there. Competitive players will gg (or in certain cases, just leave) when its clear the games over, there would be no benefit in revealing buildings. There would be negatives though, particularly in tricky base-trading games.
edit: just thought of the perfect example. Savior vs TT on Neo Requiem. How anti-climactic would that game have been.
I agree with you.. Hopefully someone forwards that on to blizz.
On February 20 2010 20:22 ShaperofDreams wrote: Getting a stargate and 3 or 4 Pheonix's seems to be super clumsy though, compared to the zerg just putting down a spire and being able to hatch as many muta as possible.
in SC1 muta are a staple unit for zerg and building a stargate plus corsairs has become standard, but right now don't zerg also have banelings and roaches as?
It seems like a simple tech switch would be really hard on toss, forcing him to spam cannons or pheonixes
*This is pure theory-crafting! I DO NOT have the beta.
edit: like, getting a stargate and then builidng multiple Pheonixes would take way longer than building a spire and hatching muta...i guess the toss could do it as part of his build preemptively..but that just seems super clumsy to me..
Well you can still use the pheonix to kill overlords, or you can lift the queen into the air and kill that to seriously hurt their macro. With Hydralisks not coming til after Lair Zerg is a bit low on AA too.
Considering how you have to upgrade overlords before they can detect I would imagine that a transistion into pheonix-dt would be a strong strategy.
On February 20 2010 19:39 otmar wrote: I noticed after you killed his main it revealed the map to you.. but he actually ended up wining with the mutas.. I can see this being a problem if you have a close game where the win comes down to units the left, or you perhaps need to hide a building to destroy you opponents base first.
I agree. The feature should be toggle-able at the very least so that competitive tournaments can be held without it.
On February 20 2010 15:45 heroyi wrote: omg way too close of a call lmao.fucking mutas.
i was wondering how the HT are. i hear they reduced the dmg of the storm and reduced the range the ht can cast them.
i really wanna play toss, but if protoss is still weak then terran i go.
HT may be weaker, but Colossi seem way, way more powerful than Reavers.
They're faster, have similar dps, similar range when Colossi range is upgraded, can walk up walls, and rape worker lines much better than Reavers did, since one sweep of their lasers melts numerous drones and probes, while SCVs require 2 sweeps to kill. Their lasers also don't bug out the way Scarabs do.
Colossi are also at a similar place on the tech tree that HT are in SC2 and SC1.
Add to this the fact that HT and DT now require separate tech buildings, and Colossi seem to be a much stronger option for Protoss anti-ground than HT were in SC1.
Zealot + Colossi are comparable to SC1's Zealot + Dragoon + HT, in that both unit compositions have melee damage soakers, ranged damage dealers, and AOE. The difference is, Colossi don't require energy to do ranged AOE damage, but they cost a lot.
Add in 2 or 3 Sentries for their damage-reducing shield, and it doesn't seem like Zerg has a ground unit composition that can beat Zealot + Sentry + Colossus. Old Ultraling would have lings get melted by Colossus, and then Ultras would be left alone vs. the Protoss army. Hydralisks suck vs. Zealots. Roaches suck vs. Colossus.
what? do hydras really suck vs zealots in sc2? I can't really imagine that as long as you have a decent amount of hydras.
On February 20 2010 20:59 KingHillBilly wrote: Hmm. I have a replay against davyie too.
On February 20 2010 19:34 SD-Spirit wrote: after viewing this rep and few others i am starting to worry about the fact that protos has completely NO ANTI AIR. literely nothing
On February 20 2010 19:34 SD-Spirit wrote: after viewing this rep and few others i am starting to worry about the fact that protos has completely NO ANTI AIR. literely nothing
No. Nony didnt see david went mutas, thus didnt have time to build or tech to anti air.
OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess phoenixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one phoenix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
On February 20 2010 22:25 7mk wrote: OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess pheonixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one pheonix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
On February 20 2010 22:25 7mk wrote: OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess pheonixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one pheonix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
Phoenix works just like building a corsair to scout in pvz in sc1. There was a time when it wasn't completely predictable what z would do and you were in a horrible position not knowing if he was going muta or hydra which is why people built a scouting corsair to fly over their base.
It can harass overlords around the map and in your opponents base since he will have extremely limited anti air. Likely only his queen. It should never die as your scout and get in tons of harass.
I don't know if the spell where it lifts something up is given to you or if you have to train it. But if you get it by default it makes it better than a corsair since you can disable something like the queen and get a surround on it with zealots or whatever.
Granted I haven't played the game but it seems like a very functional unit early game
On February 20 2010 23:16 floor exercise wrote: Phoenix works just like building a corsair to scout in pvz in sc1. There was a time when it wasn't completely predictable what z would do and you were in a horrible position not knowing if he was going muta or hydra which is why people built a scouting corsair to fly over their base.
It can harass overlords around the map and in your opponents base since he will have extremely limited anti air. Likely only his queen. It should never die as your scout and get in tons of harass.
I don't know if the spell where it lifts something up is given to you or if you have to train it. But if you get it by default it makes it better than a corsair since you can disable something like the queen and get a surround on it with zealots or whatever.
Granted I haven't played the game but it seems like a very functional unit early game
On February 20 2010 22:25 7mk wrote: OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess pheonixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one pheonix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
Banshees cannot hit air.
lol ok that explains that ^^ and phoenixes were anti air only right?
On February 20 2010 22:25 7mk wrote: OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess pheonixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one pheonix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
Banshees cannot hit air.
lol ok that explains that ^^ and phoenixes were anti air only right?
Yeah but they are fast light air so they suck against the big boys (BCs, Carriers, Motherships, Corrupters etc...) They can also lift non-massive ground units up into the air where they can attack them.
On February 20 2010 22:25 7mk wrote: OK I watched KBH's game, interesting, so thats 1/5 :p I guess pheonixes are REALLY good against banshees, David Kim was afraid to attack one pheonix when he had 4 banshees to do so. I hope that doesnt mean that mutalisks suck as soon as protoss has a pheonix
Banshees cannot hit air.
lol ok that explains that ^^ and phoenixes were anti air only right?
Yeah but they are fast light air so they suck against the big boys (BCs, Carriers, Motherships, Corrupters etc...) They can also lift non-massive ground units up into the air where they can attack them.
T goes mass maura? just go mass phoenix and lift them one by one :D I wonder if you can lift siege tanks in siege mode, any one knows?
On February 20 2010 19:34 SD-Spirit wrote: after viewing this rep and few others i am starting to worry about the fact that protos has completely NO ANTI AIR. literely nothing
From the game that was played yes it looks like that.
Sentries are great against mutalisks. Sentries have a fast attack that is both air and ground. Not to mention they have 2 base abilities and 1 trained ability.
Currently they are Force Field - 50 energy - creates artificial walls that occupy a 3v3 space on the field for 15 sec Guardian Shield - 75 energy - range 4 shield that protects all friendly units in the radius reducing all ranged damage by 2 for 15 sec Hallucination - 100 energy - not targetted and can create illusions of the protoss units in different amounts depending on unit type
Force field can be used at the start depending on initial choke to totally close it off or create a bottle neck of 1 unit so that 2-3 of your units can attack the bottleneck. Also you can use force field to push things out of the 3v3 area. If units are position correctly you can lock them down for 15 sec by squishing them into a wall or building (not sure if this is currently intended.
Guardian Shield is what helps it be great against mutalisk. Sentries take down mutas fast due to their attack speed as well as protect the rest of your troops with guardian shield.
Hallucination is the scout and diversion creator. Since you can pick all the units (even those you cant currently create) you can pick a phoenix for a quick scout. Or create a Warp Prism to fake out a drop. Or create 4 fake probes to help surround.
Your not going to want to spam these too much as they are not very durable but the utility they provide will help you support your protoss army
On February 20 2010 09:22 Pufftrees wrote: Thanks for sharing, watching it now. How long were you 1st place in Gold before they placed you in Platinum Nony?
I got put straight into Platinum after going 10-0 in placement matches. The placement matches were really easy for me. They involved me building a bunch of probes and building any unit I wanted and attacking.
So basically just like your bw games?
It's so great to have a game people can theory craft on and have it actually mean something. Wish I could play.
Thanks for the replays, I saw your 10 qualifier matches and they were highly entertaining Nony. As was this game. Its very fun seeing awesome gamers flex their skill in a new environment. Can't wait to see you roll nerds once you have had some practice learning what counters what and where. Good luck in TSL!
Thanks for the replays, I saw your 10 qualifier matches and they were highly entertaining Nony. As was this game. Its very fun seeing awesome gamers flex their skill in a new environment. Can't wait to see you roll nerds once you have had some practice learning what counters what and where. Good luck in TSL!
Any good source to a database of new incoming replays? Especially TL people, I would really like to see you upload some nice games please! This game was pretty good and I am tired of watching newbies!
On February 20 2010 09:15 N3rV[Green] wrote: Pretty soon I see David Kim going down to the TLers. People are getting better reallllly fast.
Even psyonic is pretty good xD
Yeah, he has 5 losses last time I checked. But I think he's not trying his hardest to win every game but rather doing a variety of things. I think my mechanics in SC2 are pretty good (I really need my F keys argghhh) but I have nooooo idea how to do anything "properly" strategy-wise. There are tons of people who are better than me right now but I'll catch up super fast, especially when I have genius Artosis to tell me what greatest stuff currently is :D
Those better people are only guessing their strats, there is no way that they have already figured out solid strats. As soon as the game develops a little more youll be on top again
This was my first real game that I've been able to commentate. It was epicly close and Nony seriously had it.
Note: My game sense is pretty bad as the beta has only been out for a little while, so a lot of the stuff I say is not very accurate (what else is new).
On February 20 2010 09:14 h8m wrote: Youtube vid please
Will do. Can't promise that it's gonna be ready today (1080p is taking pretty long to upload) but tomorrow you should be able to see it on my channel and in my playlist ( http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=783C148E164B6E0D ).
Mind you ... i'm commenting in German. Everything else is in English though
Got a fun experiment for you guys: I put the first-person camera views side-by-side in 1920x600 resolution. You can see what each player was doing simultaneously.
Every David Kim rep I see he does something different. I really think he isn't going out there to win and crush people he's just trying to show everyone different possibilities and sort of open people up to things that aren't roach rush into nydus for example
On February 22 2010 00:52 floor exercise wrote: Every David Kim rep I see he does something different. I really think he isn't going out there to win and crush people he's just trying to show everyone different possibilities and sort of open people up to things that aren't roach rush into nydus for example
His job is to test the game, not to win. He is just doing his job extremely well and even on weekends!
Edit: But it seems to me like he is the only one using a lot of units like roaches and such.
On February 21 2010 23:41 Azrael1111 wrote: I think opening separate youtube videos and playing them side by side in sync is more effective
Acutlly i believe it's just the downscaling issue can be fixed for a clean picture but the guy used the wrong resize filter Spline64Resize(960,540) would do best for the 2 vids then to splice them together. this can easily be done in megui with avssynth without an high end editor like vegas
On February 20 2010 19:03 rest_less wrote: who the hell is david kim??
Your kidding, right? HAVE YOU WATCHED ANY OF THE BATTLE REPORTS? If not then go to Starcraft2.com and watch them NOW. See his pwning abilities. He is the master of SC2 right now.
On February 21 2010 23:41 Azrael1111 wrote: I think opening separate youtube videos and playing them side by side in sync is more effective
Acutlly i believe it's just the downscaling issue can be fixed for a clean picture but the guy used the wrong resize filter Spline64Resize(960,540) would do best for the 2 vids then to splice them together. this can easily be done in megui with avssynth without an high end editor like vegas
something like that initial test seem to show the issue is lack of bitrate/complexity by youtube transcoder.
I actually didn't have to resize--I just set FRAPS to half-size recording and the game resolution to 1900x1200 (so half would actually be 960x600). I've since learned that 1920x1080 is actually better for SC2 at the moment, so any future vids I do will be in 1920x540 unless Blizzard makes 16:10 resolutions have more viewable area.
Thanks for the megui/avssynth tip. I was using Premiere but this option is much more appealing. Is there a way to join files in the same script? Part of the difficulty of this method is that there's going to be at least four files for any video over something like 3:30 in length since the FRAPS filesize limit is 4GB.
I think the difficulty in doing it is that it runs off battle.net and the time aren't perfect in sync even after editing there is some sort of timing issue i sync it in the begging but then the middle to end get de synced not sure if it's battle net or because my fps on my recording wasn't capped lower.
clip1=AVISource("D:\1.avi")+AVISource("D:\2.avi") Clip1 is the first pov consisting of the 2 files found at location D:\ named 1.avi and then 2.avi if you had a 3rd vid it would become AVISource("D:\1.avi")+AVISource("D:\2.avi")+AVISource("D:\3.avi") That is how you join files together in avsynth The use of clip1= is just for the stackinghorizontal command part of the script
I just rename my clips 1.avi 2.avi 3.avi etc. it easier to use the same scripts for everything that way.
You could also rewrite the script in many forms as avsynth is a kind of pesudo programming language you can do quite a bit editing with it.
Like this is just for combining files for 1 game AVISource("D:\1.avi")+AVISource("D:\2.avi")+AVISource("D:\3.avi")+AVISource("D:\4.avi") ConvertToYV12()
You could do that in 2 files and use something like this with 1.avs being the script for pov 1 and 2.avs being the script for pov 2 a=Import("D:\1.avs") b=Import("D:\2.avs") a=a.Spline64Resize(960,600) b=b.Spline64Resize(960,600) a=a.AddBorders(0, 240, 0, 240) b=b.AddBorders(0, 240, 0, 240) StackHorizontal(a, b)
On February 23 2010 01:16 Virtue wrote: I think the difficulty in doing it is that it runs off battle.net and the time aren't perfect in sync even after editing there is some sort of timing issue i sync it in the begging but then the middle to end get de synced not sure if it's battle net or because my fps on my recording wasn't capped lower.
umm... his spire was actually building when your obs sat at his base. i suppose it's just a little tricky to notice the zerg buildings until you get used to it
As i saw from the Arbiter - Nazgul training game, 5 phoenixes totally rape 10 mutas, with like 2.5 phoenixes left. As for the corruptors, they can be countered with stalkers i suppose (being armored). Besides, a corruptor-heavy zerg has nothing to counter a zealot/immortal attack (corruptors can still hit colossii, right?)
Wow. A game that didn't involve quick Queen larva and chrono boost/warp gates abuse actually resembled something close to a SC:BW game. Maybe there is some hope for this game.
On February 25 2010 09:52 Lost.Soul wrote: Wow. A game that didn't involve quick Queen larva and chrono boost/warp gates abuse actually resembled something close to a SC:BW game. Maybe there is some hope for this game.
You can't expect solid standard play from a game, much less a beta, when it's been out for what a week? When games are new and no-one fully understands the mechanics it's inevitable that rushing is the predominant gameplay.
he drew that post up in advance (he had one for every outcome) that isn't the real result. One of his premade posts just accidentally slipped into the thread
On March 01 2010 19:49 quinnyfizzle wrote: Now that Nony has claimed the TSL championship title he can start streaming sc2 :D yayyy
Thanks for the spoiler retard.
If you did not get to see the finals, you shouldn't be reading threads about Nony, since it's quite obvious that there's a big chance someone mentions something regarding that.
And also, he had the decency to spoiler his post. So now your quote is the actual spoiler. Somehow, you seem like the retard now.
I like the nydus trick, but I thought zvz was all about roaches. Why was d.k. massing lings? Is it because of the FE or what?
he is the game balancer he could just be trying builds i'm sure hes not too happy that zvz boilds down to mass roach builds i'm sure he'd like some variation on it.
On March 01 2010 19:49 quinnyfizzle wrote: Now that Nony has claimed the TSL championship title he can start streaming sc2 :D yayyy
Thanks for the spoiler retard.
If you did not get to see the finals, you shouldn't be reading threads about Nony, since it's quite obvious that there's a big chance someone mentions something regarding that.
And also, he had the decency to spoiler his post. So now your quote is the actual spoiler. Somehow, you seem like the retard now.
It was the morning after the damn finals, he did not write "TSL spoiler". I wanted to see a David Kim game. You see, because when there's an [originally] unlabelled spoiler in a thread, you'd THINK it'd be a spoiler directly RELATED to the thread i.e. this sc2 game but that was not the case.
EPT
TSL 10k nom nom nom
I have faith in your skill!
