I may be wrong but I haven't seen anything on spider mines in SC2. I know the reapers have some sort of time bomb mines but I haven't seen anything like the classic spider mine.
Starcraft wouldn't be the same without spider mines. They fit in so well with the Terran race and game plan. I would go so far as to say there one of the major elements which defines the whole race.
In Brood War mines have provided fantastic entertainment and so many classic moments. There also used extensively in all 3 match ups. As a Terran player I can't imagine playing any Starcraft game without them. What does everyone else think? If there not in the SC2 I think this is something which must be changed asap.
I can live without mines, although it might be nice to toy with some other mechanic that provides incentive for a slow push. If terran plays differently in the sequel I won't necessarily be disappointed.
With SC2 how it is now just throwing in mines still wouldn't be the same. Imagine what mines in TvP for BW would be like if goons had blink and zealots had charge >.<
On January 07 2010 04:23 GeneralStan wrote: A weapon that's just as capable of blowing your own forces to smithereens as your enemy, if you're not careful
Yeah but the unit laying the mines happens to be the fastest unit in the game so it's not too hard to get away. Oh and it only costs 75 minerals and builds in like 10 seconds, so if you don't win the game with your first one, you can just build another.
On January 07 2010 04:08 yarders wrote: I know the reapers have some sort of time bomb mines
They're called D-8 Charges, unless they have been removed that is. They're not remotely like spider mines. For one they can damage buildings and they also go off after a set period of time, once they have been dropped. I'm sure there are other differences if anyone cares to expand.
On January 07 2010 04:23 GeneralStan wrote: A weapon that's just as capable of blowing your own forces to smithereens as your enemy, if you're not careful
Yeah but the unit laying the mines happens to be the fastest unit in the game so it's not too hard to get away. Oh and it only costs 75 minerals and builds in like 10 seconds, so if you don't win the game with your first one, you can just build another.
I'm glad SC2 doesn't have spider mines.
Clearly prepared for the trashtalk aspect for his game vs. IdrA this weekend.
Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
As far as I'm concerned those units that don't trigger spider mines hover. Recognizing friends from foes is already used in homing missiles - to my knowledge radiowaves of some sort are used for this purpose.
Moreover making game units/abilities/mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It just has to make the game easy to understand, sophisticated and overall good no matter what.
On January 07 2010 04:08 yarders wrote: I may be wrong but I haven't seen anything on spider mines in SC2. I know the reapers have some sort of time bomb mines but I haven't seen anything like the classic spider mine.
Starcraft wouldn't be the same without spider mines. They fit in so well with the Terran race and game plan. I would go so far as to say there one of the major elements which defines the whole race.
In Brood War mines have provided fantastic entertainment and so many classic moments. There also used extensively in all 3 match ups. As a Terran player I can't imagine playing any Starcraft game without them. What does everyone else think? If there not in the SC2 I think this is something which must be changed asap.
Phew, luckily it is SC2 and as such should be different.
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
Yes, that's why they got rid of them - the graphics.
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game
Touché Chill, there aint enough people like you in the world. :D
On January 07 2010 05:46 LastWish wrote: Moreover making game units/abilities/mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It just has to make the game easy to understand, sophisticated and overall good no matter what.
On January 07 2010 05:46 LastWish wrote: Moreover making game units/abilities/mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with logic. It just has to make the game easy to understand, sophisticated and overall good no matter what.
You're a bit contradictory right there.
Not necessarily. Think about marines, lore wise their guns are magnetic gauss rifles. In game their guns act like standard powder based rifles. There is flames when they shoot and that classic assault rifle chatter is heard. It doesn't make sense logically when you think of the lore and the type of guns they use, but in the game we understand "oh that marine is shooting."
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
Yes, that's why they got rid of them - the graphics.
On January 07 2010 06:15 zergnewb wrote: Though aren't all the original units able to be put in for UMS?
We think so. They haven't actually confirmed that as far as I know. We know the scrapped units and at least some of the classic SC1 units will be in the editor. Like the medic and firebat were originally in SC2 but got scrapped, so they will be in the editor. I believe we've also seen things like wraiths and vultures in screen shots. As for every classic unit - I don't think that's been 100% confirmed. But it is safe to say most if not all will be in.
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
Yes, that's why they got rid of them - the graphics.
Since when has Blizzard strived for realism?
He's being a negative nancy (im one to talk) so he gave a sarcastic answer.
The reason mines don't work on those units is because they HOVER.
Its explained in the game, I don't know how you (TeWy) don't understand that.
Tasteless has requested to his legion of nerd fans that someone should remake the original sc1 as a UMS in sc2 so inevitably you'll get your mine fix mehn don't worry about it.
On January 07 2010 06:25 Tfact_rats wrote: Tasteless has requested to his legion of nerd fans that someone should remake the original sc1 as a UMS in sc2 so inevitably you'll get your mine fix mehn don't worry about it.
plans for this were already set right when SC2 was announced, don't worry you guys will get your Total Conversion.
In regard to the OP: I sincerely would not rest the entire flavor of the terran race on one tech. Blizzard is making SC2 fully aware that each race has it's own flavor. Clinging desperately to one aspect of the game is not going to make it SC1. If you like mines a lot, play SC1. In the meantime, trust that Blizzard is going to do their best to maintain, and in some new and exciting ways evolve the flavors of the races. Sorry that your fav. mechanic might not make it tho :/
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game.
It's definitely one of the best changes; not because I hate spider mines, but because they've given Terran interesting alternatives that don't make TvT stupid (maybe).
Spider mines is a mechanic in SC1--a skill that could be used in many ways. It is always sort of sad to see a mechanic go, but there are many new ones to be excited about in SC2 (creep drop, vikings air/ground mode, banelings, etc.).
Oh man, another thread that simply points out that SC2 will NOT be the same as BW! Seriously, I would be disappointed as hell if I were waiting this long only to buy a game that so closely resembles its predecessor.
On January 07 2010 06:25 Tfact_rats wrote: Tasteless has requested to his legion of nerd fans that someone should remake the original sc1 as a UMS in sc2 so inevitably you'll get your mine fix mehn don't worry about it.
Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of buying a brand new game???
My strongest reason for the arguing for the inclusion of mines in sc2 is in regard to e-sports. I feel their inclusion would add excitement for spectators. Most significantly mines are something that casual fans can easily participate in. As spectators we love it when we know something that the players are unaware of. Its those aspects which makes Starcraft so watchable. Mines are just one example of this in Starcraft but possibly the best one.
If SC2 is to export e-sports around the world it will have to be fantastically entertaining to watch. Mines may only be a very small thing in the grand scheme of things but if e-sports is to succeed it will need all the help it can get.
On January 07 2010 06:25 Tfact_rats wrote: Tasteless has requested to his legion of nerd fans that someone should remake the original sc1 as a UMS in sc2 so inevitably you'll get your mine fix mehn don't worry about it.
Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of buying a brand new game???
Adding a "classic" feature (official or not) to SC2 would only add to the game's value.
Also, you can use the edit button to update your previous post instead of posting twice in a row.
In regards to excitement: Yes, mines are definitely great to watch in SC:BW, but that hardly means they're necessary for SC2 to be exciting. If Blizzard is 10% as competent as their past games suggest, they've had more than enough time to implement new features that make the game sensational in its own way. Throwing in an exciting feature won't necessarily make SC2 more exciting.
For the success of e-sports it is important that suspense finds it's place in SC2, because it evokes an intense emotional engagement with the audience. And I will concede that spider mines are extremely effective at this, but ideally there will be plenty of analogous mechanics to fill it's shoes.
To be fair to you yarders, I had not explicitly considered the effect suspense has on observing SC. Spider mines are generally expected in most matchups, but watching a player forget to detect in front of him/herself, and stride precariously into a mine field is very exciting. It is difficult to predict the behavior of mines and that makes them an exciting unknown (like mine dragging in TvP, brutal!).
It seems similar to hold lurkers for me. Watching a control group of marines unknowingly walk over a group of lurkers creates so much anxiety and suspense. Those moments where you can hear the audience audibly gasp or scream or laugh are the moments that make SC so entertaining as media form. Perhaps this is something I will look for when considering SC2's viability in future e-sports markets.
All the same yarders, your clarifications seems a bit late now. I'm not sure the OP speaks to your intended cause clearly enough. I felt the exact same way Chill did up until now, and I only agree in that I hope Blizzard builds mechanics that help create suspenseful moments in SC2, not specifically with protecting the spidermine's future.
Are you kidding, how many TvT games have been turned into an epic turtle dropship fest as a result of spider mines? (See latest Flash vs FBH)
Spider mines slow down the game considerably, hardly any pros these days are stupid enough to lol move their dragoons into a heap of spider mines. There's nothing interesting about watching bisu move his dragoons back and forth taking out spider mines one at a time before his observer arrives.
SC2 is much more fluid because of the fact that containment is a tad more difficult, the removal of spider mines plays a bit of a role in this. A faster and more dynamic game should be much more interesting to spectators.
Spider mines slow down the game considerably, hardly any pros these days are stupid enough to lol move their dragoons into a heap of spider mines. There's nothing interesting about watching bisu move his dragoons back and forth taking out spider mines one at a time before his observer arrives.
You clearly didn't see bisu's recent game versus turn.
On January 07 2010 04:08 yarders wrote: I may be wrong but I haven't seen anything on spider mines in SC2. I know the reapers have some sort of time bomb mines but I haven't seen anything like the classic spider mine.
Starcraft wouldn't be the same without spider mines. They fit in so well with the Terran race and game plan. I would go so far as to say there one of the major elements which defines the whole race.
In Brood War mines have provided fantastic entertainment and so many classic moments. There also used extensively in all 3 match ups. As a Terran player I can't imagine playing any Starcraft game without them. What does everyone else think? If there not in the SC2 I think this is something which must be changed asap.
I miss a lot reaver too. I think SC2 have lost a lot of funny removing reaver. Reaver is a funny-micro unit, pretty entertainment to watch and also really hard to master.
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
LOL to answer these questions would be enough a kid or a sci-fi book of Twenties. The only good question might be: why mines are so stupid to burst near friendly units?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
It's a new game , units shudnt at all be reapearing actually. I've played the blizzcon version and the game felt good ,yet not as good but that had nothing to do with the units themselfs it was due to the fact there was barely any sc-like micro for instance the muta/vult micro
On January 07 2010 04:08 yarders wrote: In Brood War mines have provided fantastic entertainment and so many classic moments. There also used extensively in all 3 match ups.
I wouldn't say that mines are used extensively in tvz.
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game.
Yeah I would love for them to focus on the game being good like SC and less trying to cater to people who expect it to be closer to an super-expansion with a new graphics engine.
I feel like a lot of people are really missing the point (though it's only my guess) when they wish the Reaver, for instance, would be in SC2. Even if it was in SC2 it won't be like the SC one. The micro is all going to be completely new because it's more like War3's engine (improved though, I hope, to feel/work more similar to SC, although I haven't really seen signs of this yet). So if a Reaver was in SC2, it can't possibly (IMO) be cute in the same way as SC. It might be cute in a new way, but most likely it will simply be a totally uncute version of the Reaver. Like if you put a Reaver into a War3 map. You could make it look like a reaver, shoot scarabs which explode, crawl slowly and need a shuttle to get around, but the "magic" is going to be random and from scratch (IMO), unlikely to be anything but alien to its SC counterpart.
It's not like we know beta build, Raven could use mines at some point in the past... the only problem is they would overlap with hunter seeker missile?
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
The idea i think is that light units dont set off the trigger (vultures and workers). Also they are robotic so they burrow underground when layed. The enemy ones you can pick any fun sci-fi thing like imbedded signals in all ally units they are sent out to make them invisible to spider mines. It makes sense
Darkswarm also makes sense lol its a cloud, its hard to shoot into fog and hit something.
IIRC the bugs don't block the ranged fire, but clouds their ability to see and acquire targets. If it doesn't work that way it should, tiny bugs blocking gunfire and the like would be silly. Imagine shooting an assault rifle into a locust swarm; I'm pretty sure the bullet would get through just fine. At this point I'm really just nitpicking and it doesn't matter.
Edit: still doesn't really explain why units inside the swarm can see units outside it if going by strict lore. Oh well.
On January 08 2010 00:15 789 wrote: IIRC the bugs don't block the ranged fire, but clouds their ability to see and acquire targets. If it doesn't work that way it should, tiny bugs blocking gunfire and the like would be silly. Imagine shooting an assault rifle into a locust swarm; I'm pretty sure the bullet would get through just fine. At this point I'm really just nitpicking and it doesn't matter.
Edit: still doesn't really explain why units inside the swarm can see units outside it if going by strict lore. Oh well.
because its the explaination of these trivial things that made starcraft such a great game instead of its gameplay elements and mechanics right?
wtf r u terrans complaining about in sc2? u guys get an aerial reaver shot that doesn't dud retardedly , u guys get reaper that jump through cliffs and hands out candy that blows up building as well...
On January 08 2010 00:15 789 wrote: IIRC the bugs don't block the ranged fire, but clouds their ability to see and acquire targets. If it doesn't work that way it should, tiny bugs blocking gunfire and the like would be silly. Imagine shooting an assault rifle into a locust swarm; I'm pretty sure the bullet would get through just fine. At this point I'm really just nitpicking and it doesn't matter.
Edit: still doesn't really explain why units inside the swarm can see units outside it if going by strict lore. Oh well.
because its the explaination of these trivial things that made starcraft such a great game instead of its gameplay elements and mechanics right?
wtf r u terrans complaining about in sc2? u guys get an aerial reaver shot that doesn't dud retardedly , u guys get reaper that jump through cliffs and hands out candy that blows up building as well...
its called Starcraft 2 for a reason u know...
There might have been a reason I said it was just nit picking and didn't actually matter. I also don't really equate people saying they will miss spider mines to complaining about the state of terrans in sc2. Note, I wasn't one of them. I'm on the glad to see changes since it is a new game side of the fence. Also, the HSM is on a timer, so yes it can dud if it doesn't reach the target in time.
Spider Mines were replaced by the Hunter-Seeker Missile on the Raven. And no, mines hardly defined the Terran race. They just happened to be a ridiculously good unit/item to use. Thank God they're not back.
And to everyone who says we should have the Reaver back as well, that's just ridiculous. Like people keep saying, we want a NEW game, not SC 1.5. Bringing back one of the most fundamental units to Protoss strategy in the original Starcraft would keep Protoss strategy far too similar when they've already got the High Templar and a couple other returning units.
It's a new game , units shudnt at all be reapearing actually. I've played the blizzcon version and the game felt good ,yet not as good but that had nothing to do with the units themselfs it was due to the fact there was barely any sc-like micro for instance the muta/vult micro
Uh, you know how long it took to develop those micro strategies, right?
On January 07 2010 06:13 789 wrote:Not necessarily. Think about marines, lore wise their guns are magnetic gauss rifles. In game their guns act like standard powder based rifles. There is flames when they shoot and that classic assault rifle chatter is heard. It doesn't make sense logically when you think of the lore and the type of guns they use, but in the game we understand "oh that marine is shooting."
Nitpicking here, but magnetic weapons can have flames coming out of their barrels too. Here's a video of a Navy railgun test.
Then again, you still have a point. Mutalisks flap their wings in space, and people don't really mind, for example.
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game.
While I agree with you general, I think there are certain "core" units that deserve to return, and something as indispensible to TvP as vultures+spider mines should be on this list, not ghosts.
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game.
While I agree with you general, I think there are certain "core" units that deserve to return, and something as indispensible to TvP as vultures+spider mines should be on this list, not ghosts.
indispensible against SC1 Protoss. For all we know they would be next to useless with the new units and mechanic.
I'm glad to see them gone, and not because I don't like dealing with them. Its a new game, I expect new units. This isn't SC:BW with a new graphics engine afterall. They've done well in retaining the basest units of each race, and I'm glad to see we're going to have to use entirely different mechanics.
On January 07 2010 04:11 Chill wrote: Good, I don't want Starcraft to be the same. I wish less units were reoccuring. Get over it imo, this is a new game.
While I agree with you general, I think there are certain "core" units that deserve to return, and something as indispensible to TvP as vultures+spider mines should be on this list, not ghosts.
Except that if you go with that attitude the MU's wouldn't change, and that's what we want with SC2, a NEW GAME.
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
Spider mines aren't the only thing that make no sense - neither does your post. "apparition?" "graphisms?" Dark swarm doesn't make sense?
And to you the idea of 3 alien races battling over blue crystals and green gas makes sense?
Jesus christ, your post is probably the stupidest post I've ever read on TL - and that's amazing.
Heh, I was just thinking if mines/vultures were in SC2 what would happen. I was thinking about a tvp. The terran is doing a slow push with tanks, vultures, and with mine fields. All of a sudden stalkers blink onto the tanks for mine dragging craziness. It would be pretty funny.
Seems to me, and apologies if someone brought this up already, but Blizz is steering away from anything like mines. (Old) Infested Terrans, Reavers and their scarabs, spider mines... I guess that's it. Even siege mode is (currently) doing less now. Seems like they cut the real brutal one-shot killers and now all the tier 3 units do more damage as some sort of metagame design swapping.
On January 07 2010 04:23 GeneralStan wrote: A weapon that's just as capable of blowing your own forces to smithereens as your enemy, if you're not careful
Yeah but the unit laying the mines happens to be the fastest unit in the game so it's not too hard to get away. Oh and it only costs 75 minerals and builds in like 10 seconds, so if you don't win the game with your first one, you can just build another.
I'm glad SC2 doesn't have spider mines.
As the game is perfectly balanced atm, you can expect some really nasty stuff to compensate.
Spider Mine is really really really cool. I think vulture is the most interesting unnit in the whole game.
On January 07 2010 05:23 TeWy wrote: Spider mines really make no-sense, why don't they explode on certain type of units ? how do they recognize which are the ennemy ones ? why are they invisible if they're just dropped and not launched underground ?
With the apparition of real 3D and better graphisms, Blizzard had to get rid of all the things which weren't making any sense (another example would be darksworm).
Scourge and mutas flying dont make much sense either, lets not get into this kinda of useless discussion?
On January 13 2010 00:07 YellowDeath wrote: Dragging mines will become dragging banelisks unless there is some type of disable baneling attack. Is there? I can't remember.
You know, the more you think about it, the less terrans would actually want spider mines in tvp in sc2. Between charge and blink mine drags would be a nightmare.
On January 07 2010 04:23 GeneralStan wrote: A weapon that's just as capable of blowing your own forces to smithereens as your enemy, if you're not careful
Yeah but the unit laying the mines happens to be the fastest unit in the game so it's not too hard to get away. Oh and it only costs 75 minerals and builds in like 10 seconds, so if you don't win the game with your first one, you can just build another.
I'm glad SC2 doesn't have spider mines.
Classic.
I guess a bit of a spoof on the kind of harangues IdrA has about Carriers, hts, lurkers, etc.
On January 07 2010 04:08 yarders wrote: In Brood War mines have provided fantastic entertainment and so many classic moments. There also used extensively in all 3 match ups.
In SC2, units are only created to counter one other unit.
Aside from mines, I'd like a lot of things back, like reavers and scouts, but I think it would be best to let go and accept the changes. I'm sure there's going to be SC2 equivalents to stuff like reaver drops and vulture harass.