|
I'm not insulting Day9 - I'm sure he's a brilliant player, but as a Protoss I know the damage a Marauder drop can have on your expansions. In a top level game, the Terran wont let you expand three times without aggression. If a Terran sees you've expanded he's going to think "right, that's 4 Zealots he's not having - let's attack," and this is quite punishing.
The reasons why Terran can fast expand vs Protoss a lot easier than the Protoss fast expanding is due to the ease of defending measures the Terran can employ. Bunkers, Siege Tanks, Missile Turrets, the cheap unit mix, creating the expansion in your main.
I just don't believe this build would work against a good Terran player - they'd abuse the fact you have a "lesser" army (seriously, working off of 2 gates and expanding against a 3 rax Terran who can expand the same time as you is utter suicide). Terran units are cheaper, and the Marauder unit (itself), is more powerful than any tier 1/1.5 gateway unit. If you looked at the two replays, at 7-8 minutes look at Day9's army size and then compare it to a possible army size of a 3 rax > expansion Terran player. Factor in Stimpack, infinite kiting, Marauders raping all gateway units as well as buildings and you'll see why it's so threatening to fast expand. The threat is why most Protoss players will stay on 1 base until their t2/t3 tech starts rolling out - it makes an expansion a lot easier to defend, and the t2/t3 tech can do some serious damage if used properly.
|
Scotland380 Posts
|
Of course fast expanding put you at risk... If Zerg players can FE every game with reaper/hellion/early MM pushes/2gate pressure etc crammed down their throat using only lings, a queen and maybe a roach or two, there is no reason why a Protoss player can't FE on 2gate.
Yes, that first push is hella scary, but after that you are in a damn good position. Terran, Zerg, or Protoss, no good player will let you expand without pressure. If you expand early enough (like say, right after your gateway) your nexus will be half done by the time pressure arrives and can take some damage while you build up a force big enough to save it at your main.
Test it out, i can guarantee you it isn't impossible to pull off.
|
I really don't know why so many people try to disprove it "right off the bat" instead of experimenting with it. Sure it's very hard to hold of that 50 food push and it doesn't seem really viable with 2 gates (and a robo u dont really use) but it's just too easy to miss something if you don't really try to make it work in practice for some time first.
|
On August 31 2010 22:33 ALARM wrote:
I really don't know why so many people try to disprove it "right off the bat" instead of experimenting with it.
well, I guess it's because you rarely see any top-player do it AND day9 didn't actually "CAST" a game - I think much of the suspicion is due to the fact, that day9 obviously couldn't find any high-level-replays that showed exactly what he wanted to show; normally when he tries to make a point about strategy he demonstrates it using a high-level-replay
now of course that doesn't mean it can't be done; but the main reason why people are not trying to "get a lot of stuff" as protoss is, that the "lot of stuff" by the terran-player is stronger than "the lot of stuff" by the protoss-player; I don't want to talk balance here, but marine/marauder with stim and concussive-shell simply wins against any EQUAL food army of protoss-gateway wo tech; that's a fact; therefore you definitely have to pull probes to survive the timing push; the main reason for this is, that stim and concussive-shell are so ridiculously cheap; together they are 150/150 which is cheaper than eg. only charge (200/200); this means, the terran can boost his army with useful techs while having "more stuff" in the end than the protoss-player;
now if I have a disadvantage right after the very early stages of the game, it's pretty understandable that many players are very reluctant to expand; because (again this comes from day9) you should expand when you attack OR have an advantage; but expanding right at the time when I'm the most vulnerable seems very counterintuitive
against zerg on the other hand you see many protoss-player expanding pretty fast; again why? because here it's exactly the opposite: a protoss-gateway-army works great against pretty much everything the zerg can throw at you until midgame
again I'm not saying protoss-fe doesn't work; I'm just pointing out, that the FE will be thrown down exactly at the time when protoss has the biggest disadvantage in any battle; early midgame is the worst because later on you can use forcefield to trap the marauders and keep them from kiting; but early midgame is exactly when stim+concussive-shells are the most devestating
|
I really liked the new daily because Im starting to feel very boxed in when I try to 1 base. I'm probably gonna try this build (Or a variation, probably getting a second gas faster, so I can get Zealot Charge). I usually end up losing because I fail to have enough unit producing structures and by the time I realize this its too late.
Thanks for showing me some Options Day9.
|
now of course that doesn't mean it can't be done; but the main reason why people are not trying to "get a lot of stuff" as protoss is, that the "lot of stuff" by the terran-player is stronger than "the lot of stuff" by the protoss-player; I don't want to talk balance here, but marine/marauder with stim and concussive-shell simply wins against any EQUAL food army of protoss-gateway wo tech; that's a fact; therefore you definitely have to pull probes to survive the timing push; the main reason for this is, that stim and concussive-shell are so ridiculously cheap; together they are 150/150 which is cheaper than eg. only charge (200/200); this means, the terran can boost his army with useful techs while having "more stuff" in the end than the protoss-player;
now if I have a disadvantage right after the very early stages of the game, it's pretty understandable that many players are very reluctant to expand; because (again this comes from day9) you should expand when you attack OR have an advantage; but expanding right at the time when I'm the most vulnerable seems very counterintuitive
I'm not the best player, I'm pretty new to starcraft in general. But I had a friend who regularly used the 50 food timing push as advertised by trump vs me so I started trying to figure out how to beat that. And it's a world of pain. Since most terrans block their ramp u're pretty much forced to get a Robo early, and theres no way around it. The upgrades that help u are Zealot leg speed, Colossus with range and Templar with Storm. But it's too slow to tech straight to templar in my experience so usually u HAVE to stop by colossi to gain some time (or try some VR stuff if you feel fancy). Usually when I talk to fellow P players about how to beat MM(M), all our thoughts are centered around playing in one base. I felt really confined because terran was able to completely steer my thought process without me having a chance to take the initiative. That's why I like Day9's idea so much, that, maybe if we think outside of one base we can develop another solution.
Also note that he isn't expanding when you are the weakest vs terran. He is expanding when u have 1 zealot and one stalker out and tries to harass with them while expanding (so it follows the rule expand when attack). This is way before the usual push around 8 minutes. I guess its around 5. So at this point in time the armies should be quite the same in size maybe u even have a little advantage with ur mini 2 unit army. So u might get up the other 2 warpgates just in time to defend for his counter push. I don't know, I like the idea and although I dont know on what level Day9 plays right now he's obviously much better than me so I put my own judgement back and try this strategy alot of times even if I lose all of those games. I just don't like the attitude to already 'know better' before actually taking a closer look.
I could actually see 2 types of motivations giong on in people. On the one had it sure is fancy to disagree with day9 since most people love him so much. On the other hand, I can't judge how good day9 really is. He sometimes tries to be a little bit the rocket scientist of sc2. Maybe if you're REALLY GOOD at sc2 you can see that he tries too hard without actually being that awesome anymore (like he was in sc1). But I would imagine those are only very very few people.
Thirdly, lots of people said it already, he really tries to point out that just generally getting lots of expos might be another way of playing sc2 that could work.
|
I feel like what Day 9 is suggesting would work on very large, brood war/Proleague style maps. I'm pretty sure I could hold off a 50-food timing push on, say Andromeda or something like that. On the current map pool (and with my embarrassingly low APM), it feels too risky against popular builds.
Fast expand was great in brood war because it took a lot of time to get across a map. The timing window was tiny compared to SC2 for one-base play vs FE, and in brood war, if you didn't do any damage on the first attack, you were done for. At least that's how I remember it. It's been a long while since i've played brood war, or watched any brood war replays. And yeah, I know it's a different game and Blizz wants it that way, but if Day 9 can reference brood war every 5 minutes, why can't I?
Don't get me wrong, I love me some Day 9 and I'm probably going to try FE against my friends just because why not, It'll probably improve my fundamentals and such, but I'll probably be sticking to one-base for ladder play for the time being.
|
Just quoting because good job :D
|
Does anyone else find it dubious that Day9 compared raw food counts between the two games? 1 colossus is capable of way way more damage than the "equivalent" food count of 3 zealots, assuming the player is exploiting high ground advantages and front-line defences.
Also, defending 3 bases that early in the game sounds like a nightmare..
|
I miss bigger maps.
God dam blizzard /shakesfist
|
On September 01 2010 01:30 BenKen wrote:
I feel like what Day 9 is suggesting would work on very large, brood war/Proleague style maps. I'm pretty sure I could hold off a 50-food timing push on, say Andromeda or something like that. On the current map pool (and with my embarrassingly low APM), it feels too risky against popular builds.
this I think is a very valid point; throwing a FE up like that on steppes of war feels much more like suicide than on xel nagas cavern
I just don't like the attitude to already 'know better' before actually taking a closer look.
of course this is true; my problem simply is, that incorporating a FE needs lots and lots of practice; it's a totally different gamestyle, feels much more differently than "just" another tech-building for example; now learning this new build just to find out that it will be stopped by every skilled terran in a week or too would be really frustrating
also I'm sure that day9 is a much better player than me, but sometimes I get the feeling he tries a little too hard to play sc2 like BW - meaning he doesn't look for the differences between the two games but for the things they have in common; it is way too early to tell, but what if it turns out that in two years people will still be one-basing with protoss for the first 10 minutes? furthermore protoss now has a very strong midgame unit: the immortal; currently (when I'm not going for void rays) I try to get 1-2 immortals out asap and THEN add a relatively fast expansion; if you think about it, robo costs 50 more minerals + 100 gas; not "that" huge of a difference to another gateway...and we are not talking about a fast colossus tech here;
what I mean is, protoss-tech doesn't mean just going for fast high templar or fast colossi while turtling, with void rays and immortals we have really strong units available relatively early in the game
I think I didn't clarify my points properly though: I am NOT opposed to any sort of fast expanding....what I dislike is the reluctance to incorporate immortals or void rays, which does NOT mean a very long tech-shot; if you get an early void ray and throw up an expansion while the void ray is being built and THEN harass with it, the void ray pays for itself as soon as the expansion is up and running; even if it's just to keep the opponent in his base; this is what has bothered me: the complete relience on zealots and stalkers although it's common opinion that this is not the perfect combination vs terran
but hell, maybe I'm 100% wrong and soon everybody will play FE with every race...who knows...
|
I'm a 600ish Diamond Protoss player (only played 150 games in release so far, played a lot more in beta) and I tried this out in two ladder games this morning. It actually seems viable. I lost both games, but seeing as how it's the first time I'm trying it, it performed rather well.
Game 1: Blistering Sands
The T player built 5 rax off one base, got no gas, and all-in marine rushed me. His first wave of marines came as my first expo nexus was half done, and I easily killed them all. His second attack was much larger, and came faster than I expected. I held it off, but at the cost of several probes, pylons, and my entire army. His next attack killed me.
Game 2: Desert Oasis
I'm horrible on Desert Oasis, so it was no shock to me that I lost. But anyway, I lost because I played poorly in general, but my army was much stronger than his. He just used well positioned tanks to totally shut me down.
I'm thinking this is going to be a really strong style if it's well practiced. Those of you poo-pooing it, give it a try. It feels a lot smoother and stronger in execution than you might expect.
|
On September 01 2010 02:30 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 01:30 BenKen wrote:
I feel like what Day 9 is suggesting would work on very large, brood war/Proleague style maps. I'm pretty sure I could hold off a 50-food timing push on, say Andromeda or something like that. On the current map pool (and with my embarrassingly low APM), it feels too risky against popular builds. this I think is a very valid point; throwing a FE up like that on steppes of war feels much more like suicide than on xel nagas cavern Show nested quote + I just don't like the attitude to already 'know better' before actually taking a closer look. of course this is true; my problem simply is, that incorporating a FE needs lots and lots of practice; it's a totally different gamestyle, feels much more differently than "just" another tech-building for example; now learning this new build just to find out that it will be stopped by every skilled terran in a week or too would be really frustrating also I'm sure that day9 is a much better player than me, but sometimes I get the feeling he tries a little too hard to play sc2 like BW - meaning he doesn't look for the differences between the two games but for the things they have in common; it is way too early to tell, but what if it turns out that in two years people will still be one-basing with protoss for the first 10 minutes? furthermore protoss now has a very strong midgame unit: the immortal; currently (when I'm not going for void rays) I try to get 1-2 immortals out asap and THEN add a relatively fast expansion; if you think about it, robo costs 50 more minerals + 100 gas; not "that" huge of a difference to another gateway...and we are not talking about a fast colossus tech here; what I mean is, protoss-tech doesn't mean just going for fast high templar or fast colossi while turtling, with void rays and immortals we have really strong units available relatively early in the game I think I didn't clarify my points properly though: I am NOT opposed to any sort of fast expanding....what I dislike is the reluctance to incorporate immortals or void rays, which does NOT mean a very long tech-shot; if you get an early void ray and throw up an expansion while the void ray is being built and THEN harass with it, the void ray pays for itself as soon as the expansion is up and running; even if it's just to keep the opponent in his base; this is what has bothered me: the complete relience on zealots and stalkers although it's common opinion that this is not the perfect combination vs terran but hell, maybe I'm 100% wrong and soon everybody will play FE with every race...who knows...
I think the idea of his build was way more centered around getting fast expansions out. He even said it was by no way a refined build. Maybe as people experiment more they'll find they actually need a few sentries with FF to hold off a MM push or an early immortal can help more than an extra stalker or two. Maybe you need the second gas quite a bit earlier than Day9 gets it in his dailies to get more stalkers/higher tech units.
A stargate and a void ray is a pretty expensive investment, both time and money-wise. If you can afford to expand before then just defending with gateway units that would be ideal. The whole point is to experiment and find out what works and does not work. This is kind of a stupid example, but I think the thought process is like this: if you could immediately throw down an expansion with 0 attack units safely, you would. Obviously that's not going to work against any competent player, so let's try to slowly find the next best thing.
I'm not saying you're doing this, but just from reading the last few pages, I think everyone who is blindly saying "this can't work! you need collosi! What is Day9 doing?!?" are way more poisonous to the development of the game than Day9. People need to experiment and try different things to evolve their gameplay. Does a really fast expand as zerg feel safe? Not really, but usually you can defend any early push and then you'll be ahead of a one-base playstyle. It's the same idea. If we just sit back and accept that we HAVE to play on one base we'll never develop different strategies.
|
i would love to see a daily about one of day's own multiplayer games. at the very leat not pointless, boring videos of watching a base being built (no offence, day 9).
|
I see this cast as an attempt to get people to think about options. It's too easy for players to get locked into feeling safe and comfortable with a way of playing. Then when faced with something different than the typical opposition they don't know what to do next. I think Sean's intention was to present an option. Maybe some enterprising Toss player will take it and refine it and we'll have a new BO that gives the Terran MM ball a challenge.
The answer might be to add an Immortal or two before the expansion to cover the T player that goes heavy into Marauders. Maybe a timing change makes the idea more viable.
I didn't see the cast so much as a "Here's a new BO you can use to roll over Terrans". It was more like trying to get people to try stuff and see what works. As a Toss player, it sure would be nice to have something other than 3 Gate Robo or 4 Gate Push to use. And it would give one more thing that my opponents would need to try to scout for.
|
god people are seriously so dumb
|
Russian Federation100 Posts
I was hoping it would be caught in the re-play but it was not
Does anyone know the name of the song that Day9 had playing at the end of Episode 167 (Morrow vs Idra) when he was doing it live?
its been bugging me pretty badly.
also sorry if this was asked/answered, but my searches returned no queries.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On August 31 2010 23:02 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2010 22:33 ALARM wrote:
I really don't know why so many people try to disprove it "right off the bat" instead of experimenting with it. well, I guess it's because you rarely see any top-player do it AND day9 didn't actually "CAST" a game - I think much of the suspicion is due to the fact, that day9 obviously couldn't find any high-level-replays that showed exactly what he wanted to show; normally when he tries to make a point about strategy he demonstrates it using a high-level-replay now of course that doesn't mean it can't be done; but the main reason why people are not trying to "get a lot of stuff" as protoss is, that the "lot of stuff" by the terran-player is stronger than "the lot of stuff" by the protoss-player; I don't want to talk balance here, but marine/marauder with stim and concussive-shell simply wins against any EQUAL food army of protoss-gateway wo tech; that's a fact; therefore you definitely have to pull probes to survive the timing push; the main reason for this is, that stim and concussive-shell are so ridiculously cheap; together they are 150/150 which is cheaper than eg. only charge (200/200); this means, the terran can boost his army with useful techs while having "more stuff" in the end than the protoss-player; now if I have a disadvantage right after the very early stages of the game, it's pretty understandable that many players are very reluctant to expand; because (again this comes from day9) you should expand when you attack OR have an advantage; but expanding right at the time when I'm the most vulnerable seems very counterintuitive against zerg on the other hand you see many protoss-player expanding pretty fast; again why? because here it's exactly the opposite: a protoss-gateway-army works great against pretty much everything the zerg can throw at you until midgame again I'm not saying protoss-fe doesn't work; I'm just pointing out, that the FE will be thrown down exactly at the time when protoss has the biggest disadvantage in any battle; early midgame is the worst because later on you can use forcefield to trap the marauders and keep them from kiting; but early midgame is exactly when stim+concussive-shells are the most devestating
you are completely missing the point.
|
On September 01 2010 05:01 Fork wrote:
I was hoping it would be caught in the re-play but it was not
Does anyone know the name of the song that Day9 had playing at the end of Episode 167 (Morrow vs Idra) when he was doing it live?
its been bugging me pretty badly.
also sorry if this was asked/answered, but my searches returned no queries.
I don't remember which is was for sure, but check out Blue Sky Black Death's "Movements". I also discovered this from a recent Daily, so it might be the same one you have in mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
