EPTDay[9].tv Daily - Page 474
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On August 31 2010 11:57 PokePill wrote: I really can't understand what Day[9] is doing. Does he actually think this is viable? If he actually tried this 20 games it should be fairly transparent that this is not a viable build, and the only time it works is when you are lucky enough that they are fast expanding as well (which you of course cannot scout). 3rax and any other similar pushes will destroy this every time.. there is a reason top protosses 1 base for so long, because they have to. If this build was actually viable it would require hitting a 5 second timing window of perfect probe cutting, perfect unit composition, perfect micro, etc. This is really going to do more hurt than help for the lower skilled players that watch his stream... The point isn't to give a bronze player a build order he can exploit all the way till diamond, the point is to give the same player tips to just be better at the game regardless of BO, strategy, race etc. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
I am not convinced, and I have a hard time seeing you living as a toss against a 3rax whilst going off 1gate for an eternity waiting to FE. There is a reason top protosses don't FE vs T. Its suicide, no matter what level you are at. Sure, if they FE or play super passive you might win a few with it, but it does NOT make this a good strategy whatsoever. Maybe when we see huge maps like in BW it will work, but not now. | ||
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Cranberries
Wales567 Posts
And with his comparison of 22 Zealots, 11 stalkers against 2 Colossi, 12 Zealots and 9 Stalkers ... the 2 Colossi would make so much difference (at least against the Zealots) that it's much better going for the Colossi route. | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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Carl_Sagan
United States226 Posts
On August 31 2010 12:32 Cranberries wrote: The main problem with the build is, again, the Marauder unit. If you can't hold off the timing attack window off of 3 rax (which also supports an expansion of itself) and you lose your early Nexus you've lost the game - that's why it's not efficient. It's much easier to defend that early timing window off of 1 base because of your ramp and you can force field (trap) units, allowing your Zealot to murder the MM army: in open spaces it's easier to kite, and thus Zealots are a lot weaker. And with his comparison of 22 Zealots, 11 stalkers against 2 Colossi, 12 Zealots and 9 Stalkers ... the 2 Colossi would make so much difference (at least against the Zealots) that it's much better going for the Colossi route. I mean seriously, Day9 said he was giving a skeleton of a build, and it must be modified extensively based on scouting. So, by all means, grab a sentry, defend your ramp from the mara push just like you would anyway going 1base, then expand! The whole point here is that you can either expand and grab a bunch of T1, or get a bunch of gas, a robo bay, a colossus, and thermal lances. I don't think it's so clear cut which is better in every circumstance. The main point to me, here, seemed to be to demonstrate the fact that he could easily have 40-50 more food at the same point in the game if you value expansions over tech. Will it always work? Of course not. I don't think Day9 ever claimed that. It was simply to show the power of a macro-oriented game-style. Saying "it's no wonder he played against an easy comp" is basically just admitting you don't actually have anything to back up your position. | ||
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Back
Canada505 Posts
On August 31 2010 12:32 Cranberries wrote: The main problem with the build is, again, the Marauder unit. If you can't hold off the timing attack window off of 3 rax (which also supports an expansion of itself) and you lose your early Nexus you've lost the game - that's why it's not efficient. It's much easier to defend that early timing window off of 1 base because of your ramp and you can force field (trap) units, allowing your Zealot to murder the MM army: in open spaces it's easier to kite, and thus Zealots are a lot weaker. And with his comparison of 22 Zealots, 11 stalkers against 2 Colossi, 12 Zealots and 9 Stalkers ... the 2 Colossi would make so much difference (at least against the Zealots) that it's much better going for the Colossi route. He had just put down 4 extra gateways which he could easily support though. I don't think his argument should have been "look at how much more stuff I have" but instead "look at how great a position I'm in WHILE having a similar force". | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
Not to mention that i don't even think he is pimping this one build order specifically, or even doing this as Protoss. I think he is just planting a basic RTS in general theme that sometimes it is just better to have more stuff than to have stuff that preforms optimally against the other guy's stuff. Day9 is just pimping a macro style multi-base style in general. /shrug | ||
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Gecko
United States519 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142887 and here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/540705373?page=1 Show That it is possible to get your natural early and defend it. They aren't pro replays but they are high diamond tosses versus popular terran builds. I'm convinced that with practice i could get this to work for me in some way, i have not been playing much the past two weeks but this is making me want to get on SC2 right now. | ||
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brad drac
Ireland202 Posts
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TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
If you have the skills, take his build and mod it. If you don't, wait until the next daily. I've been working on some fairly macro oriented P styles. Not as greedy as his, but I am inspired to work mine out. I play it safer, 2-3 gate into expo with a push, but it's all about cutting corners and getting by with what you can. He's trying to play Protoss like it's Zerg. He did play Zerg in sc1, so it's not unreasonable. Ask a zerg about cutting corners and getting by. It's not a bad skill toi have. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On August 31 2010 12:28 Surrealz wrote: I find it hilarious watching this daily. I love day9 but this daily has gone overboard. There is a REASON he only played the very easy AI...Its the only opponent you are every going to get 3 bases against in the early game. This is supposed to be this "super solid" build, yet he didn't even mention any replays besides adelle. I am not convinced, and I have a hard time seeing you living as a toss against a 3rax whilst going off 1gate for an eternity waiting to FE. There is a reason top protosses don't FE vs T. Its suicide, no matter what level you are at. Sure, if they FE or play super passive you might win a few with it, but it does NOT make this a good strategy whatsoever. Maybe when we see huge maps like in BW it will work, but not now. Ppl thinking like this, do not understand the Intention of Day[9]Daily. It gives you Ideas and Impressions. It does _not_ give you "Buildorders that bring you to 1200 Diamond" | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
Yet if you managed to get an expansion up and running you'd be more beneficial in the long run due to economy and be able to get more units out at a faster pace. Day9 just puts up some concepts on the table to think about. I like my games more as a macro oriented game as Protoss and I find it more beneficial if I succeed in getting my expo up. However most people are still at the 1base mind play thus severely limiting the possibility of expanding. But if people get past the 1base play we'd probably see more intense and fun games on ladder/custom games and tournament games. | ||
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Cryosin
United States182 Posts
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dadde
Italy314 Posts
That's why even PVP game is interesting for a Terran or a Zerg player..you can mod what D9 tells you to fit in your race/style/situation. I lrned a lot with him. For real. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
if you can't get a peak inside the terran's base you can hallucinate a phoenix and see what he's up to; the biggest thread for an early expansion is imho the double-starport cloaked banshee play; although I'm still learning the timings, the hallucinated phoenix "should" be available at the time he starts the cloak-research; cloaking field needs 110 seconds, which is enough time to get a robotics and chrono-boost out an observer; if he pressures from multiple barracks, this won't be necessary obviously; hallucination is imo highly underused, not as an offensive spell but for scouting purposes | ||
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DarkspearTribe
568 Posts
On August 31 2010 11:36 CagedMind wrote: Day9 has lost it.Last one he was incorrect one or two things now hes doing a fe pvt... Point of episode is to make it easy for t? If you can't do it - don't do it. If day9 found success with FE PvT than why the hell not? | ||
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caewil
Singapore26 Posts
At the moment though, expanding early is a bit of a risk and a lot of the maps have naturals that are less defensible than back in BW. The 1.1 changes will slow both reaper harass and early zealot pressure so that might help a bit. Still, I really want to see more macro oriented builds. There's nothing as awesome in BW as seeing massive armies running all over the place. SC2s cute little armies just don't have the same feel. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
What I got from this daily was the general concept of what benefits you get with expanding and not teching so fast. Too many people are taking it too literally and trying to just mass expand. Of course this isn't viable all the time and I think we can all agree that this wouldn't work so well in a real pro game but the concept is good. You just need to tweak it individually for your specific game. I despise the current trend where everyone is going one base, even zerg is forced to do that nowadays so these kinda dailies make me happy :o I would love to see people branching out and trying to get away with fast expands, | ||
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