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Boxer and Bisu complained that strategies get exposed due to replays.
Q) What about making replays optional when you create game? (assuming it's possible)
Replays MADE starcraft. Is making it OPTIONAL compromising too much?
The Bad
1) less replays (because replays = fun and helpful)
2) not being able to watch is annoying. (but you don't have to join these games)
3) hacker heaven (but b.net 2.0 is 1 CD = 1 account)
The Good
1) there will still be replays. People may not join games with replays off (people don't like gosus). Filter can be added to search parameter to make it convenient.
2) if you don't want to share it (having decided before the game), you don't have to.
3) more fun to watch (e-game is professional but also entertainment.)
4) don't have to worry about replays leaking.
Other
1) tournaments may need replays to regulate. They can require replays.
2) in offline setting, they can disable replay option.
* most people replied as tho replays will die. I don't think it will be too different.
Poll: Is this a good idea?
(Vote): Yes. SC2 will be fine with this option.
(Vote): No. By making replays optional, SC2 will be worse.
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Boxer: Personally, I’m not so hot on the replay system in Starcraft. For a strategic player like me, it’s the worst feature ever. After you create a strategy and use it in a televised game, players watch the replay and dissect it immediately. Honestly, it’s hard to find a counter just by watching VODs. But if you give progamers a replay, they figure it out in no time at all. It really kills the motivation of whoever thought of the strategy.
Bisu: I agree with Boxer. I’d rather Starcraft 2 not have a replay function. Though I don’t use strange strategies that often, replays help people figure out the general flow of my playstyle.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102321[Interview] Boxer and Bisu, Magazine-S
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If Blizzard allow this option in SC2, the hackers will be able to cover up their evidence.
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true...
i guess it'll only work if blizzard makes b.net hacker free :/
or some other way that admin can spot hacking, which doesn't sound too practical.
aren't blizzard charging b.net anyway, under the premise that they'll maintain the server at a very high level? But this doesn't guarantee no hacking.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Their wishes in this regard are completely inconsequential. Watching replays is fun + if they play someone, he has every right to save the replay to review his play, they can't say "oh, hey, you can't save this replay because I'm so much more important than you".
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what about hackers, I really REALLY doubt there will be any, since you can only have 1 account per cd and theres no lan, so there wont be any other servers, just 1, b.net 2.0. That means if u hack and get cough you lose the money you spend on cd. I don't think anyone could risk like that.
what about the replay thing, I think you should still get the replay every single time, but in the game room, you could select if you want to be included in other person's replay or no. if you uncheck the box, the other played would still get the replay, but only with himself in it(well, your oponent is under FOG, you still see what u saw during the game). That way you can see your own game flaws, but u can't analyse your oponents builds etc. I think its the only alternative. :}. What do u think?
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I don't think Boxer and Bisu's concerns apply to those playing on Battlenet to the same degree at all so I don't think Blizzard has to implement it for us. Perhaps it should just be an issue for Kespa or whoever to not allow players in professional matches to save replays of their matches.
Edit: Proom's suggestion makes sense as well, though I'm not sure this feature should be enabled for people on Battle.net, seeing as it would slow the progress of beginners, for what benefit? So that D+ players can hide their 6 rax in to 2 fact into 6 port into cloaked wraith builds from the D- players they beat?
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The biggest problem I see here is that it actually is possible to just create the replay anyways, because the actions a player makes HAVE to be sent to his opponent. So all you'd have to do is either modify SC2 a bit to ignore the "don't save replay" thing, or hack some code that reads the game data and saves it as a replay by itself.
Obviously both of these can be dealt with through decent anti hack systems. But Blizzard will have to work hard for that.
I don't really get why the progamers complain, though. At least in their current way of playing - offline matches - it is easy to keep replays off public. New strats are mostly practiced with teammates.
Even though SC2 will always be played (in some way) online, I still think that many tourneys will be "offline" (at least for some time). When you have control over the computers the players use, you have control over replays. The tourney host just has to make sure that the replays are not spread. If qualifiers are online and the final rounds are offline it's not such a big deal either imo.
Well, and if whole tourneys are fought online, there are much bigger problems. Smurfing, hacking etc. It probably would also be bad for business - fans want to see their stars live.
So, I think this is mostly an issue to discuss with tourney hosts.
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Germany2896 Posts
Over bnet it won't work anyways(a client side hack can remove the restriction). And for pro-games kespa can simply set a policy that replays may not be taken home by the players.
@ProoM that's technically impossible. The players can simply hack their starcraft client when watching the replay offline.
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So what they're saying is.
"We're so awesome, nobody deserves a chance to counter us!" ?
Imo this is just plain silly, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes and to counter a specific build if you can't even see what your opponent did?
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lol worst suggestion ever.
You need replays.
A game like StarCraft lives because people are watching other people playing and learning with their strategy. If you stop replay saving, the game would die.
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On October 05 2009 22:36 MaD.pYrO wrote:
So what they're saying is.
"We're so awesome, nobody deserves a chance to counter us!" ?
Imo this is just plain silly, how are you supposed to learn from your mistakes and to counter a specific build if you can't even see what your opponent did?
It would be exactly the same in a real life battle. In any case, it's not like you can't come up with a counter, it would just be a more difficult procedure involving only information you might find from VODs, (which Boxer and Bisu are okay with). It rewards people who come up with innovative strategies and those who can analyze their opponent's play with limited information. It would ensure that whatever innovation you make is not nullified in a a matter of days.
Edit: Bear in mind that I think this suggestion only applies to progamers, as I have said above it would have serious negative consequences for those playing on Battle.net. Essentially the only change would be that the progamers themselves do not get the replays of their matches, only the VODs. So no change for the public at large who don't get the replays anyway.
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Nah, I think they have a point, if they were playing online. I remember that in 1.07, new things would go around much more slowly. Even some good players back then (eg. NTT) were against the introduction of replays (at all). It gives the innovator an edge for a little bit more time than 1 game. But just playing offline, like the pros do, will also be fine. Just hope not too many big tournaments will be held online.
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if i was a progamer, i'd be pissed
but since im not, i'm perfectly willing to copy their strategies that they took ages to develop and perfect.
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bisu is a hypocrite because you know damn well he learned from replays himself.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
If your strategy only works when NOONE in the whole world has yet seen it, make a better strategy.
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I see where they're coming from, but then both players would have to have replay saving disabled, and it might be hard to find games where the other person actually allows you to not let them save the replay.
Also, it can't be too great of a strategy if it's countered easily. There should always be adaptation in your build according to what the enemy is doing(except for your standard very beginning build, etc). I say this because you can't really hard counter a flexible strategy, which should be common nowadays. For example, the guide on TvZ 1 base tank push I made recently. You don't need replays to know the general idea of what the other player did, so you should immediately have some idea as to a counter for what they are doing if they do it again. When players start adapting properly and proceeding with a safer 2/3hatch muta, it begins to destroy this build. As the Terran, there isn't really any adaptation in the build you can make to keep the opponent guessing.
I don't know if anyone understands what I'm getting at. I guess if your strategy suddenly sucks because your opponent knows what you're doing then it's not flexible enough to be a good build.
Another example is a 2fact in TvP. The Protoss can know everything about this early push but still lose to a good 2fact. There is some flexibility in this build(2 addons, 3 tank 1 vult, 1 tank 3 vults, etc, etc) that you can work with as well. Let's say it was 2003 and Boxer didn't want his revolutionary 2fact build exposed, even though it is known to everyone now, it is still a viable build.
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On October 05 2009 23:30 BluzMan wrote:
If your strategy only works when NOONE in the whole world has yet seen it, make a better strategy.
Boxer vs Hiya on Bluestorm.
Sorry, but I'd like to see more games like that rather than fewer.
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On October 05 2009 23:47 L wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2009 23:30 BluzMan wrote:
If your strategy only works when NOONE in the whole world has yet seen it, make a better strategy. Boxer vs Hiya on Bluestorm. Sorry, but I'd like to see more games like that rather than fewer.
link please  (or atleast the date)
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What if disabling replay saving for your opponent would also disable replay saving for yourself? That way there is a downside to making such a choice. They can't copy you, but you can't find out why you lost.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 05 2009 23:53 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2009 23:47 L wrote:On October 05 2009 23:30 BluzMan wrote:
If your strategy only works when NOONE in the whole world has yet seen it, make a better strategy. Boxer vs Hiya on Bluestorm. Sorry, but I'd like to see more games like that rather than fewer. link please (or atleast the date)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8311_BoxeR_vs_HiyA/vod
Not the best example I think.
Boxer vs Oov on requiem from Ever 2004 would be a better choice, or.... maybe Boxer vs Yellow on Dream of Balhae.
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EPT
