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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP  What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
Scan still doesn't see the whole base + natural and it costs the Terran minerals.
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I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
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On February 06 2013 01:04 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
Fantasy got massively outplayed, and it looked like he had barely even touched HotS.
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On February 06 2013 00:40 NVRLand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 23:51 woreyour wrote:
Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
I agree with you to a certain degree but a LOT of higher league players are obviously biased and use their league to justify their claims. For example, Nerchio posted a tweet during the "Zerg pwns everything"-era which said: Show nested quote +Another dose of whining: how can you have less than 80% win ratio as protoss in PvZ? You can win the game with 2 spells, vortex and FF No, I'm not gonna accept whiners just because they are higher level. Thanks for assuming I'm gold btw, I'll go ahead and assume you're silver, just for the fun. You have no idea what league I'm in and I have no idea what league you're in so cut the crap. It's not like when you reach masters league you suddenly have an epiphany where you don't rage or balance whine anymore...
lol this post from Nerchio is not even a whine, its just him proly praising his race, happy to be zerg or trolling. 2nd post is just another trolling from a zerg as he is posibly hating the 2 spells. Also these examples of "whining post" you claim does not really present whining as in the level of this OP or say this line "terran OP", "marines imba". Do you really think whines from things only happening due to your bad play is acceptable and deserves to be heard? Whats the goal? Nerf a race or unit? Why not improve your gameplay?
Whiners are whiners whatever their league but I guess you cut higher league some slack since they deserve it. They have reach a far more understanding than you to shut down their claim. Hell did MC cried when his reign crumbled to ruins? NO, he continued to prove that people will most likely figure out his success and will find ways to deal with it. He continued to work on other ways to prove he is still a competition.
There is a difference between whining and supporting your claim with pure whining nonsense. People in higher leagues to a degree proved it since they are up there. Pro players can whine all they want since they are simply PROs, cream of the crop. You can support your whine with detailed non bias analysis, you can provide replays as well. However, whining for the sake of not liking or understanding somethings is plain dumb.
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All i know is the OP got pwned by avilo, and is now probably crying in his pillow. Anyway it is still too early, i mean remember how many changes there were from the sc2 beta to now? I mean 1 psi roaches,5 rax reaper.. Give it some time , and maybe if nothing else you have learned ONE thing, do NOT post on Team Liquid when u are heated.. especially if you are trying to have a discussion on balance.
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This post is completely backwards. Protoss dominates early game PvT now, it's Terran that dominates the midgame with super-speed medivacs and hellbats which can clear an entire mineral line in three seconds, and the lategame with ghost/viking. (which, like WoL, still has no counter)
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On February 06 2013 01:04 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
he would get owned by parting in WoL as well.
The skill gap is huge between the two
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It is shocking to me that a protoss would have this opinion on the beta. Even all my protoss friends all think the beta is blatantly imbalanced in favor of protoss (especially TvP early game) [range of skill mid-masters to GM]. Things have improved for Terran now that the MSC no longer has detection, and the reapers can derive more info without eating into early marine production as much (ie: production without techlab). In the current state the protoss has the capacity to win with substantially inferior mechanics; especially multitasking and reaction time. There are no scenarios in which protoss does not have the utility to come out ahead without having to rely on an opponent's mistake, which is what TvP seems to relies on if you want to be alive for more than 10 in-game minutes.
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You forgot all the proxy stuff. I've been proxied on that one map (akali wastes?) more than I've played standard games now.
Right now pvt has just regressed back to the early days of WoL, which should be expected with new expansion. Virtually every terran now either 1 bases me or does an early 2 base timing (usually opening with mine/hellbat drops into a expo into a marine/tank all in). It may seem like a lot right now, but people are still just figuring it out. It is frustrating to play against, because you know the terran is going to all in you (at least 80% of the time) but you just don't know how to tell which one yet. It just takes time to look for the clues (big marine count, for instance).
Currently I'm finding nexus first with super early MSC for holding off aggression is the best thing to do. It is strong against all the cheeses (except proxy stuff on alkali wastes), and gives you a big economy to out muscle the all-ins. They have a lot of (cheesy) options right now, you just haven't learned how to tell what is what. I don't think it is "too many." Most Americas terrans still can't pvt beyond 3 bases, just try to get to a long game.
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On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe Yep. New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall. Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get. Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up. New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly. Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core. New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost. Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss. Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games. Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable. The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise. Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D  
I agree with what has been posted here by Avilo, it is objective and parallels my experience from 500+ beta 1v1s.
My greatest frustration is with 1-base twighlight: Scouting it and not knowing if I need bunkers for the blink all-in, or turret for the DT rush. Making the wrong choice means there are not enough minerals to account for the other option, and it is a total binary win condition (ie: execution is irrelevant).
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On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
rly avilo ? please dont even start complainig about balance again .
protoss blink was nerfed cuz of your posts ,and now we have a less viable response to many things in blink stalker . pheonix in pvp , mutas in pvz etc.
Terran can still proxy 2 rax , he can still 2 rax expo, he can still 6 rax allin, he can still 1/1/1 with banshee , with helion drop , terran can still go fast 3CC , terran can still open with 1 rax expand into 3 rax fast starport ( wol standard )
And now even more then before , terran have a lot of timings ( yet unexplored ) in factory play .
protoss gets a new opening /sortof into 12 gate 14 gas zealot stalker msc( chrono stalker and ms core ) and expand at 4:00-4:20 then starting warp gate .
not to mention you hold MOST of allins that protoss can do with 2 sige tanks ( remember some games where mc did 5 gate push vs puma on cloud kingdom and puma's awnser was 1 sige tank to high ground ( yes when sige mode was still an upgrade ) . protoss rly that have and is threatening now is oracle opening wich by the way is only viable vs mech * . so ye protoss got no new opening ( that are viable ) besides the 2 that i just mentioned . while terran has still a lot more and now is even safer vs allins .
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On February 06 2013 01:55 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo. rly avilo ? please dont even start complainig about balance again . protoss blink was nerfed cuz of your posts ,and now we have a less viable response to many things in blink stalker . pheonix in pvp , mutas in pvz etc. Terran can still proxy 2 rax , he can still 2 rax expo, he can still 6 rax allin, he can still 1/1/1 with banshee , with helion drop , terran can still go fast 3CC , terran can still open with 1 rax expand into 3 rax fast starport ( wol standard ) And now even more then before , terran have a lot of timings ( yet unexplored ) in factory play . protoss gets a new opening /sortof into 12 gate 14 gas zealot stalker msc( chrono stalker and ms core ) and expand at 4:00-4:20 then starting warp gate . not to mention you hold MOST of allins that protoss can do with 2 sige tanks ( remember some games where mc did 5 gate push vs puma on cloud kingdom and puma's awnser was 1 sige tank to high ground ( yes when sige mode was still an upgrade ) . protoss rly that have and is threatening now is oracle opening wich by the way is only viable vs mech * . so ye protoss got no new opening ( that are viable ) besides the 2 that i just mentioned . while terran has still a lot more and now is even safer vs allins .
Actually Puma had 2 Tanks not one.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I came to this thread expecting the whine to be the other way, I think the OP just lost several T games and is annoyed about the gatekeepers of masters league beating him. Face it OP, P is not having trouble with T and Blizzard is in no way incompetent of balancing their game.
btw, its i.e. not e.g.
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On February 06 2013 01:31 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
It is shocking to me that a protoss would have this opinion on the beta. Even all my protoss friends all think the beta is blatantly imbalanced in favor of protoss (especially TvP early game) [range of skill mid-masters to GM].
This is the opinion of virtually everyone I've talked to as well. Planetary nexus changed the matchup completely.
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Hellbats are certainly going to get a nerf because right now they are way too good. So while they are seeing a lot of play now we have to wait and see if they are going to remain a strong aggressive option. Other than that I really don't see how Terran can even be considered a threat before the 10 minute mark especially when expanding.
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EPT
