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WoL Master/ HotS high-Diamond Protoss player here. It's difficult for me to stay composed while typing this (e.g. not cursing at Blizzard for being incompetent in balancing their game), but I will do my best. It seems, to me at least, that Terran has far too many options in the early game, excluding the once-standard 1-Rax FE. In WoL, common builds included 1/1/1 All-In, 1/1/1 Expand, Marine-SCV all-in, 2-Rax Expand, 6-Rax push, Bunker rush, Concussive Shell rush, Hellion-drop rush, 2-Port Banshee, and many others that I can't think of at the moment.
In HotS, these options have increased to include mass-Reaper opening, Widow Mine rush, Siege Tank contain, Hellbat-drop rush (effectively replacing the Hellion-drop rush, being three times as strong). Needless to say, Terran easily has the greatest amount of openings/ early-game options of all three races, by an unfair margin.
Having all of these options, along with the ability to almost completely deny scouting for several minutes in the early game via the common wall-off to block ground scouts, Marines to kill air scouts, and Scanner Sweep to clear stealth scouts, makes it seem (again, I can only speak for myself) impossible to distinguish between the many possible openings that Terran could be doing for the few precious scouting moments I have (that is, if I'm lucky enough to find the Terran's base before I get walled off on a 4-spawn map), especially because they share the same signals. 1-Rax FE, Triple CC, proxy Rax, Bunker rush, 6-Rax, and 2-Rax Expand are all gasless while mass-Reapers, early Widow Mines, 1/1/1 variations can open with Refinery before or after Barracks. Scouting is generally cut off before the second Refinery goes down.
Personally, I have decided to go for a 3-Gate Robo All-In whenever I see a gas opening. I get an early Stalker to fend off Reapers and Banshees, an early MsC for Photon Overcharge, then I push out with 3 Immortals, Zealots, and an Observer to deal with Widow Mines, being ready to warp-in Stalkers if they hid Banshees from me. However, Terran is usually able to get out Widow Mines or an unusually large amount of Reapers before I am even able to get anything other than Zealots to defend it.
Help and discussion would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/302052
http://drop.sc/302053
http://drop.sc/302054
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Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it.
AS well you can send your MScore to scout and do some early harass.No way to kill it or prevent it..
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On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it
And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
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Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
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On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
Despite your incredible array of examples and reasoning to back up your claim, I will be an unhelpful prick and give you a worthless 1-sentence reply: You're wrong.
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On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout.
As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker.
Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers.
This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe
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Assuming equal skill Terran is actually on the extreme defensive in the early and early-mid PvT, and dies to most of the new PvT all-ins/harassment/timing attacks which are very numerous. This is why Blizzard removed the siege upgrade requirement, and why they keep giving Protoss early game adjustments — I'm not supporting the idea that Blizzard is always right but they definitely, along with anyone else who plays/watches HotS in my opinion, agree that Protoss is especially strong now (even arguably too strong) during the early PvT.
On February 04 2013 16:01 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo. Despite your incredible array of examples and reasoning to back up your claim, I will be an unhelpful prick and give you a worthless 1-sentence reply: You're wrong.
Avilo is a high grandmaster player, and according to your post you're high-diamond; I recommend respecting your elders and not dismissing valid posts simply because you can't control your emotions.
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On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe
Yep.
New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall.
Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get.
Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up.
New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly.
Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core.
New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost.
Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss.
Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games.
Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable.
The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play.
It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D  
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Opening wise I don't have much of a problem PvT becuse of the mothership core.
Reapers do almost no dmg now unless they have hundreds of them, so a single stalker and a mothership core and they do nothing.
But with scouting, after a Probe scout I send out my Zelot and Stalker and see what they have, you can usually pick up from what they defend with what they are doing. And I personally always open 1gate expand, get two more gates and throw down a robo just to be safe (if I'm unsure).
The biggest pisstake with Terran (IMO) is the fact that medivacs can now just zoom zoom over cannons, drop your main kill a bunch of shit and then zoom out again...
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On February 04 2013 16:34 baldgye wrote:
Opening wise I don't have much of a problem PvT becuse of the mothership core.
Reapers do almost no dmg now unless they have hundreds of them, so a single stalker and a mothership core and they do nothing.
But with scouting, after a Probe scout I send out my Zelot and Stalker and see what they have, you can usually pick up from what they defend with what they are doing. And I personally always open 1gate expand, get two more gates and throw down a robo just to be safe (if I'm unsure).
The biggest pisstake with Terran (IMO) is the fact that medivacs can now just zoom zoom over cannons, drop your main kill a bunch of shit and then zoom out again...
You will leave only cannons to defend vs drops?2-3 blink stalkers and one single HTs for feedback are enough.Some observers are good as well.The moment the Terran scans and kill your obs on his army you should know he is maybe going to drop you,so prepare to be attacked on your expansion or main.Not so difficult to see...
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No, I don't only leave cannons and yeah I usually like to have 2 obs on patrol outside the main areas of my base, but if your against a good Terran, they usually drop with a medivac that's not full of energy so a HT won't kill it.
I'm not sure which is the best way to defend against them mid game as I've had mixed success at defending them with stalkers and cannons
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I feel like I'm reading a post from opposite-world.
Terran openings have been far reduced from WoL. Widow mine openings in TvP are crap, reaper openings are crap, and every Terran allin and WoL midgame timing gets hard-countered by planetary nexus. All of the builds you mentioned in your post that existed in WoL are even worse in hots, and most of them were even bad in WoL. On the flip side, Protoss has gained oracle openings and an assortment of more-greedy openings afforded by the protection of the planetary nexus.
You're certainly doing something wrong if you feel like your openings have been reduced and the Terran's have been expanded, because that's not the case. You don't need to be 3gate allining anyone who goes gas. Every Terran gas-first opening is easily countered while FEing.
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Hey everyone,
In my opinion, I feel the 2 races have good early game potential. I complained few month ago about the very good number of early aggression of P compared to Terran and ... I was wrong few days after (they improved terran aggression/nerfed protoss early few days after). Both have amazing harass capability. Something as simple as a 1Z 1S 1MSC push can be deadly vs some terran opening. Oracles harass is very strong too and can counter a lot of terran allin.
In the other hand, terran have strong aggression too. For people that says reaper is crap vs Protoss i would say it's better vs Protoss than vs T or Z in my opinion. and it's pretty good. So plz really test unit before saying it's crap.
Anyway this should lead to one conclusion. As Protoss and Terran have gained multiple new type of aggression you have to scout more. And if you want to play safe you have to invest early on on a scouting unit. Could be MSC core could be sentry hallucinate. For terran reaper is a excellent scouting unit early on.
This make just the game more alive in the early game.
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In WoL PvT is my worst matchup, but in HotS its my best currently, that is because the msc is so awesome. You simply need to chrono a stalker to defend versus early reapers while sending the msc away to harass, I normally make the msc before any gateway units because its so effective, you can easily kill 1 SCV and if you're lucky / skilled / knows how to abuse a specific map feature, you can grab up to 3 kills while delaying mining for some time.
The msc is so awesome that when harass comes you simply need to PF you nexus, and you're safe in that base (as long as you take your workers out of there in time). Its funny to me since your whine is very obvious, you say that you can't scout things like reapers with sentries, which is correct, but you also complain about no being able to identifie different opening which all arrive much after the time you can scout with a sentry.
Free hallu combined with Nexus PF makes most all ins much weaker. I find WoL to be much worse when defending all ins, and I think its not only me. Mid masters Toss here, for reference.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe Yep. New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall. Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get. Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up. New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly. Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core. New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost. Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss. Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games. Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable. The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise. Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D
Lol it's funny because you just balance whined for a page in the opposite direction of OP. You then paint yourself to be some sort of Batman "Dark Knight" of the terrans on the forums, which is fantastic entertainment, thank you 
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Protoss have gained far more vs Terran than Terran have gained vs Protoss, the Mothership Core alone prevents Terran timing attacks before the 10 minute Medivac push and/or allows Protoss to push the front of a Terran's base with vision of whatever Terran is doing. Stargate openings, specifically Tempest openings, can kill off an entire Terran worker line unanswered and makes most Mech openings invalid, not to mention the reduced cost of Dark Shrine lets you add Dark Templars and Archons into your death ball that much faster.
Honestly, Skytoss is pretty clearly the most dominant strategy in HOTS right now.
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as master proptoss i dont understand it, pvt is pretty much easier then in wol
go for air and you scout it also oracle hold EVERY push coming,
go for sentry with free scout, plz dont say "things come before sentry" since youcan ff your ramop and reaper nearly make no dmg and die to the sentry or even the zealot with probes no you WONT lose anything to reapers
also with air you can detect his banshees with oracle, with robo you have the observer, with a fast expand go for mocore before and you will hold with the canon
after all i dont agree with you in any point but if you wanna have some pvt help feel free to msg me and i can help you show it in pvt 
ps: and if you go dt you have detect too, but if you like go 1base dt on 1 gate without sentry and run in 3rax, well that pretty much count as countered
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On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
protoss always sends a probe scout early right?
if you see a gas and rax(es) with no add-ons, its safe to assume that its gonna be a reaper. Then the response is same as before, chrono out 2 stalkers and position them in cliffs or vulnerable areas and probe scout again.
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On February 04 2013 18:01 Discarder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? protoss always sends a probe scout early right? if you see a gas and rax(es) with no add-ons, its safe to assume that its gonna be a reaper. Then the response is same as before, chrono out 2 stalkers and position them in cliffs or vulnerable areas and probe scout again.
rly no needed anymore since the dmg output is so low its easy to go zealot stalker normaly (you can chrono the stalker once if you wanna be super save) the zeal buys enough time, you can drive hitted probes away, dmg is to low to lose more then max 1 probe.
also the scout probe should be stay like on ramp of terran or next to his barracks, if marine comes out you can drive away in time withoiut loosing it, if a reaper comes out you know it faaar before its dangerous and only lose this 1 probe you scouted with
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
The thing that confuses me most, is as a terran player outside of mech openings I'm not sure what we have that really changes how we can open up. It seems most of the allins are still in from WoL but most of them don't work thanks to planetary nexus (even a 2/3 fact all in I've been trying is countered, tanks really should outrange that... :/)
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EPT
