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WoL Master/ HotS high-Diamond Protoss player here. It's difficult for me to stay composed while typing this (e.g. not cursing at Blizzard for being incompetent in balancing their game), but I will do my best. It seems, to me at least, that Terran has far too many options in the early game, excluding the once-standard 1-Rax FE. In WoL, common builds included 1/1/1 All-In, 1/1/1 Expand, Marine-SCV all-in, 2-Rax Expand, 6-Rax push, Bunker rush, Concussive Shell rush, Hellion-drop rush, 2-Port Banshee, and many others that I can't think of at the moment.
In HotS, these options have increased to include mass-Reaper opening, Widow Mine rush, Siege Tank contain, Hellbat-drop rush (effectively replacing the Hellion-drop rush, being three times as strong). Needless to say, Terran easily has the greatest amount of openings/ early-game options of all three races, by an unfair margin.
Having all of these options, along with the ability to almost completely deny scouting for several minutes in the early game via the common wall-off to block ground scouts, Marines to kill air scouts, and Scanner Sweep to clear stealth scouts, makes it seem (again, I can only speak for myself) impossible to distinguish between the many possible openings that Terran could be doing for the few precious scouting moments I have (that is, if I'm lucky enough to find the Terran's base before I get walled off on a 4-spawn map), especially because they share the same signals. 1-Rax FE, Triple CC, proxy Rax, Bunker rush, 6-Rax, and 2-Rax Expand are all gasless while mass-Reapers, early Widow Mines, 1/1/1 variations can open with Refinery before or after Barracks. Scouting is generally cut off before the second Refinery goes down.
Personally, I have decided to go for a 3-Gate Robo All-In whenever I see a gas opening. I get an early Stalker to fend off Reapers and Banshees, an early MsC for Photon Overcharge, then I push out with 3 Immortals, Zealots, and an Observer to deal with Widow Mines, being ready to warp-in Stalkers if they hid Banshees from me. However, Terran is usually able to get out Widow Mines or an unusually large amount of Reapers before I am even able to get anything other than Zealots to defend it.
Help and discussion would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/302052
http://drop.sc/302053
http://drop.sc/302054
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Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it.
AS well you can send your MScore to scout and do some early harass.No way to kill it or prevent it..
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On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it
And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
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Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
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On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
Despite your incredible array of examples and reasoning to back up your claim, I will be an unhelpful prick and give you a worthless 1-sentence reply: You're wrong.
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On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout.
As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker.
Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers.
This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe
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Assuming equal skill Terran is actually on the extreme defensive in the early and early-mid PvT, and dies to most of the new PvT all-ins/harassment/timing attacks which are very numerous. This is why Blizzard removed the siege upgrade requirement, and why they keep giving Protoss early game adjustments — I'm not supporting the idea that Blizzard is always right but they definitely, along with anyone else who plays/watches HotS in my opinion, agree that Protoss is especially strong now (even arguably too strong) during the early PvT.
On February 04 2013 16:01 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo. Despite your incredible array of examples and reasoning to back up your claim, I will be an unhelpful prick and give you a worthless 1-sentence reply: You're wrong.
Avilo is a high grandmaster player, and according to your post you're high-diamond; I recommend respecting your elders and not dismissing valid posts simply because you can't control your emotions.
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On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe
Yep.
New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall.
Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get.
Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up.
New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly.
Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core.
New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost.
Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss.
Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games.
Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable.
The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play.
It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D  
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Opening wise I don't have much of a problem PvT becuse of the mothership core.
Reapers do almost no dmg now unless they have hundreds of them, so a single stalker and a mothership core and they do nothing.
But with scouting, after a Probe scout I send out my Zelot and Stalker and see what they have, you can usually pick up from what they defend with what they are doing. And I personally always open 1gate expand, get two more gates and throw down a robo just to be safe (if I'm unsure).
The biggest pisstake with Terran (IMO) is the fact that medivacs can now just zoom zoom over cannons, drop your main kill a bunch of shit and then zoom out again...
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On February 04 2013 16:34 baldgye wrote:
Opening wise I don't have much of a problem PvT becuse of the mothership core.
Reapers do almost no dmg now unless they have hundreds of them, so a single stalker and a mothership core and they do nothing.
But with scouting, after a Probe scout I send out my Zelot and Stalker and see what they have, you can usually pick up from what they defend with what they are doing. And I personally always open 1gate expand, get two more gates and throw down a robo just to be safe (if I'm unsure).
The biggest pisstake with Terran (IMO) is the fact that medivacs can now just zoom zoom over cannons, drop your main kill a bunch of shit and then zoom out again...
You will leave only cannons to defend vs drops?2-3 blink stalkers and one single HTs for feedback are enough.Some observers are good as well.The moment the Terran scans and kill your obs on his army you should know he is maybe going to drop you,so prepare to be attacked on your expansion or main.Not so difficult to see...
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No, I don't only leave cannons and yeah I usually like to have 2 obs on patrol outside the main areas of my base, but if your against a good Terran, they usually drop with a medivac that's not full of energy so a HT won't kill it.
I'm not sure which is the best way to defend against them mid game as I've had mixed success at defending them with stalkers and cannons
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I feel like I'm reading a post from opposite-world.
Terran openings have been far reduced from WoL. Widow mine openings in TvP are crap, reaper openings are crap, and every Terran allin and WoL midgame timing gets hard-countered by planetary nexus. All of the builds you mentioned in your post that existed in WoL are even worse in hots, and most of them were even bad in WoL. On the flip side, Protoss has gained oracle openings and an assortment of more-greedy openings afforded by the protection of the planetary nexus.
You're certainly doing something wrong if you feel like your openings have been reduced and the Terran's have been expanded, because that's not the case. You don't need to be 3gate allining anyone who goes gas. Every Terran gas-first opening is easily countered while FEing.
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Hey everyone,
In my opinion, I feel the 2 races have good early game potential. I complained few month ago about the very good number of early aggression of P compared to Terran and ... I was wrong few days after (they improved terran aggression/nerfed protoss early few days after). Both have amazing harass capability. Something as simple as a 1Z 1S 1MSC push can be deadly vs some terran opening. Oracles harass is very strong too and can counter a lot of terran allin.
In the other hand, terran have strong aggression too. For people that says reaper is crap vs Protoss i would say it's better vs Protoss than vs T or Z in my opinion. and it's pretty good. So plz really test unit before saying it's crap.
Anyway this should lead to one conclusion. As Protoss and Terran have gained multiple new type of aggression you have to scout more. And if you want to play safe you have to invest early on on a scouting unit. Could be MSC core could be sentry hallucinate. For terran reaper is a excellent scouting unit early on.
This make just the game more alive in the early game.
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In WoL PvT is my worst matchup, but in HotS its my best currently, that is because the msc is so awesome. You simply need to chrono a stalker to defend versus early reapers while sending the msc away to harass, I normally make the msc before any gateway units because its so effective, you can easily kill 1 SCV and if you're lucky / skilled / knows how to abuse a specific map feature, you can grab up to 3 kills while delaying mining for some time.
The msc is so awesome that when harass comes you simply need to PF you nexus, and you're safe in that base (as long as you take your workers out of there in time). Its funny to me since your whine is very obvious, you say that you can't scout things like reapers with sentries, which is correct, but you also complain about no being able to identifie different opening which all arrive much after the time you can scout with a sentry.
Free hallu combined with Nexus PF makes most all ins much weaker. I find WoL to be much worse when defending all ins, and I think its not only me. Mid masters Toss here, for reference.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe Yep. New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall. Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get. Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up. New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly. Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core. New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost. Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss. Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games. Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable. The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise. Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D
Lol it's funny because you just balance whined for a page in the opposite direction of OP. You then paint yourself to be some sort of Batman "Dark Knight" of the terrans on the forums, which is fantastic entertainment, thank you 
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Protoss have gained far more vs Terran than Terran have gained vs Protoss, the Mothership Core alone prevents Terran timing attacks before the 10 minute Medivac push and/or allows Protoss to push the front of a Terran's base with vision of whatever Terran is doing. Stargate openings, specifically Tempest openings, can kill off an entire Terran worker line unanswered and makes most Mech openings invalid, not to mention the reduced cost of Dark Shrine lets you add Dark Templars and Archons into your death ball that much faster.
Honestly, Skytoss is pretty clearly the most dominant strategy in HOTS right now.
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as master proptoss i dont understand it, pvt is pretty much easier then in wol
go for air and you scout it also oracle hold EVERY push coming,
go for sentry with free scout, plz dont say "things come before sentry" since youcan ff your ramop and reaper nearly make no dmg and die to the sentry or even the zealot with probes no you WONT lose anything to reapers
also with air you can detect his banshees with oracle, with robo you have the observer, with a fast expand go for mocore before and you will hold with the canon
after all i dont agree with you in any point but if you wanna have some pvt help feel free to msg me and i can help you show it in pvt 
ps: and if you go dt you have detect too, but if you like go 1base dt on 1 gate without sentry and run in 3rax, well that pretty much count as countered
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On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers?
protoss always sends a probe scout early right?
if you see a gas and rax(es) with no add-ons, its safe to assume that its gonna be a reaper. Then the response is same as before, chrono out 2 stalkers and position them in cliffs or vulnerable areas and probe scout again.
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On February 04 2013 18:01 Discarder wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? protoss always sends a probe scout early right? if you see a gas and rax(es) with no add-ons, its safe to assume that its gonna be a reaper. Then the response is same as before, chrono out 2 stalkers and position them in cliffs or vulnerable areas and probe scout again.
rly no needed anymore since the dmg output is so low its easy to go zealot stalker normaly (you can chrono the stalker once if you wanna be super save) the zeal buys enough time, you can drive hitted probes away, dmg is to low to lose more then max 1 probe.
also the scout probe should be stay like on ramp of terran or next to his barracks, if marine comes out you can drive away in time withoiut loosing it, if a reaper comes out you know it faaar before its dangerous and only lose this 1 probe you scouted with
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
The thing that confuses me most, is as a terran player outside of mech openings I'm not sure what we have that really changes how we can open up. It seems most of the allins are still in from WoL but most of them don't work thanks to planetary nexus (even a 2/3 fact all in I've been trying is countered, tanks really should outrange that... :/)
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In the other hand, terran have strong aggression too. For people that says reaper is crap vs Protoss i would say it's better vs Protoss than vs T or Z in my opinion. and it's pretty good. So plz really test unit before saying it's crap.
I wont say the reaper is bad as a unit. For me the reaper is bad because it blocks my 1 barracks production for .. is it 45 seconds? 45 seconds to generate 1 supply?
The problem is not the reaper the problem is, that by building the reaper, and maybe you also want a techlab for stim, you cant get enough marines out to efficiently defense against early oracles or a msc / stalker push at the same time.
If the protoss player doesn't care about your reaper and just goes straight up to your base and kills the reaper with probes or reinforcement you maybe just outright lose.
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Its so frustrating the number of times where I skipped on turrets and suddenly 1~2 oracles scoop in to vaporise the entire mineral line.. underestimating voidrays where turrets/thors/vikings all just fall like flies.. thinking oracles yet being proxy immo all ined etc etc.
I can't for the life of me remember the last time I had something that P would be scared of or atleast make them play safe.. Everything early game is in the Ps favor completely.
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So I know you are a full time player but I also know that there are a lot of Pros out there that are incredibly biased. What you wrote here seems wrong to me. I don't know how much HotS you play and I know that the lagg and the fact that even after a thousand games you can die to something new sometimes gets the better of me. I think the same happened here to you.
On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:
New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall.
100-100 is free? Well then you got Bunkers and Marines that even generate money for you, make those.
Also I see a lot of Terrans that die to this flame how imba Protoss is!
Protoss delays tech (even warpgate) for this attack and Terrans only ever die if they go for fast 3CC and double gas. In my eyes Terran should always die to every aggression when opening this way, as it forces Protoss into an all-in by the time they discover it, since it is usually to late to catch up in economy.
That is in WoL. In HotS opening up that greedy will either get you a fast loss or Protoss scouts it a lot more early and can react without being forced all-in. This removes a gamble aspect and I think that is always good.
Fast 3CC + fast tech against a safe Protoss is pretty much a freewin as it is a defenite loss against any one-base all in.
Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get.
Building time has not changed at all, the difference is mainly that you are a bit safer against early agression because you can afford an extra Sentry.
It is not FASTER. Protoss didn't finish the Twilight Council and then wait for an extra 100 Gas...
Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up.
Terran has to have Marines after scouting double Gas? So what, double Gas means Tech, Tech means a lot less economy, Terran can afford to make more Marines and one or two extra Bunkers and still be ahead.
An Oracly killing 8-10 SCVs actually somewhat evens the scores due to the way later Nexus. The Nexus will be at least 2 minutes delayed and that means roughly 10 Probes worth of production (with Chronoboost).
Oracle detection is really nice but it also means that the Oracle will not be able to participate in a following battle. Also you can see the Oracle a lot better and just retreat, come back 15 seconds later and if the Oracle doesn't have another 50 energy, there is no detection. It's not as great as it sounds to have a unit that is only capable of detecting OR fighting and has somewhat short detection time.
New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly.
No more high-ground warpins mean that at least some variants of the VR allin are non-existent anymore.
Yes, the new Void Ray is really strong against Bunkers and Missile Turrets but it is way worse against Marines as you can not charge it up on rocks beforehand as you would have with the old one. It is stronger and weaker at the same time. I don't play it though, I could be wrong on this one and maybe it is broken.
Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core.
Blink now takes 20 more seconds to research. High Ground warpins are no longer an issue. I doubt that it is that much stronger now..
New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost.
Stargate; Fleetbeacon; Tempest has no cost? Also Tempests are terrible against Bio, which got buffed a lot.
Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss.
Yep! Protoss has a lot of different options. So does Terran, sounds pretty ok to me.
Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games.
So can a single Widow Mine hit, dropped from an incredible fast Medivac.
Or a Hellbats in a mineral line.
Or Hellion drop + 8 Marine push
Or a cloaked Banshee vs Stargate and low energy Oracles (not likely but happens)
The list goes on for Terran.
Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable.
You can also open up this way and get into mech, also you just wrote how Terran has no new options.
If Protoss reacts just a second too late vs those incredibly fast Medivacs a single Widow Mine hit can easily kill 8-10 Probes when pulled. Maybe not at the top top top level but below that certainly.
The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Well, same thing for every single Protoss opening you described, they are all easy to scout and lead Protoss down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D
Possibly, but I am pretty sure the Oracle openings will disappear and only be used in one ot of three tournaments since it is a complete coinflip. For example if Terran opens with a fast factory and has a Widow Mine that kills the Oracle, Protoss will be forced to get at least another Oracle for detection (or a Robo and an Observer which takes long) leaving almost no Gas for fighting units, meaning a counter attack can be deadly.
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Planetary nexus is same range as a siege tank in siege mode. Rofl.
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Wait, this sort of player is higher than me on the ladder? wow, just wow.
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On February 04 2013 20:08 avilo wrote:
Planetary nexus is same range as a siege tank in siege mode. Rofl.
Yeah the range seems kind of excessive. The main intent was for it to hit air units above and behind the Mineral Line I guess, being able to hit sieged tanks when they are in range seems stupid though.. Hopefully they make it 10 range vs. ground and 13 vs. air at some point...
I think that would defend against drops and air play but not against tanks.
Anyway EG-TL FIGHTIIIIING!
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I would have expected this thread to be the other way around, protoss has so many new both safe and dangerous openings that terran cannot scout unless he dumps gas in reapers.
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On February 04 2013 20:42 kyllinghest wrote:
I would have expected this thread to be the other way around, protoss has so many new both safe and dangerous openings that terran cannot scout unless he dumps gas in reapers.
...reapers, which delays answers to these dangerous openings so much that you still die to these
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I think the biggest issue is, T (and i am one) seem to have a substantial amount of diversity in possible openings the thing that all of our openings have to do:
1.) be able to effectively deny scouting to some degree. (cc 1st becoming very lackluster)
2.) Defend a Zealot/2 stalker MSC push.
3.) Not lose an entire mineral line to 2 oracles/ oh and then there's also the 4gate/void allin/ blink allin/ 3 gate robo/DT rush.....
any opening that terran has thats not a 1Rax FE or possibly CC first, seems to leave the T open to a multitude of punishment. I have yet to see any opening that is practical. IE, you have to do a significant amount of damage to come out ahead. I think the biggest dynamic we have to keep in mind is that the P is able to chrono boost probes faster then T can create SCV. The window of opportunity, 10-13 minutes (before colossus/HT begin to reach critical mass) seems to be even more stringent with the increased defensive capabilities of P.
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On February 04 2013 19:44 rEalGuapo wrote:So I know you are a full time player but I also know that there are a lot of Pros out there that are incredibly biased. What you wrote here seems wrong to me. I don't know how much HotS you play and I know that the lagg and the fact that even after a thousand games you can die to something new sometimes gets the better of me. I think the same happened here to you. Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:
New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall.
100-100 is free? Well then you got Bunkers and Marines that even generate money for you, make those. Also I see a lot of Terrans that die to this flame how imba Protoss is! Protoss delays tech (even warpgate) for this attack and Terrans only ever die if they go for fast 3CC and double gas. In my eyes Terran should always die to every aggression when opening this way, as it forces Protoss into an all-in by the time they discover it, since it is usually to late to catch up in economy. That is in WoL. In HotS opening up that greedy will either get you a fast loss or Protoss scouts it a lot more early and can react without being forced all-in. This removes a gamble aspect and I think that is always good. Fast 3CC + fast tech against a safe Protoss is pretty much a freewin as it is a defenite loss against any one-base all in. Show nested quote +Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get. Building time has not changed at all, the difference is mainly that you are a bit safer against early agression because you can afford an extra Sentry. It is not FASTER. Protoss didn't finish the Twilight Council and then wait for an extra 100 Gas... Show nested quote +Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up. Terran has to have Marines after scouting double Gas? So what, double Gas means Tech, Tech means a lot less economy, Terran can afford to make more Marines and one or two extra Bunkers and still be ahead. An Oracly killing 8-10 SCVs actually somewhat evens the scores due to the way later Nexus. The Nexus will be at least 2 minutes delayed and that means roughly 10 Probes worth of production (with Chronoboost). Oracle detection is really nice but it also means that the Oracle will not be able to participate in a following battle. Also you can see the Oracle a lot better and just retreat, come back 15 seconds later and if the Oracle doesn't have another 50 energy, there is no detection. It's not as great as it sounds to have a unit that is only capable of detecting OR fighting and has somewhat short detection time. No more high-ground warpins mean that at least some variants of the VR allin are non-existent anymore. Yes, the new Void Ray is really strong against Bunkers and Missile Turrets but it is way worse against Marines as you can not charge it up on rocks beforehand as you would have with the old one. It is stronger and weaker at the same time. I don't play it though, I could be wrong on this one and maybe it is broken. Blink now takes 20 more seconds to research. High Ground warpins are no longer an issue. I doubt that it is that much stronger now.. Show nested quote +New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost. Stargate; Fleetbeacon; Tempest has no cost? Also Tempests are terrible against Bio, which got buffed a lot. Show nested quote +Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss. Yep! Protoss has a lot of different options. So does Terran, sounds pretty ok to me. Show nested quote +Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games. So can a single Widow Mine hit, dropped from an incredible fast Medivac. Or a Hellbats in a mineral line. Or Hellion drop + 8 Marine push Or a cloaked Banshee vs Stargate and low energy Oracles (not likely but happens) The list goes on for Terran. Show nested quote +Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable. You can also open up this way and get into mech, also you just wrote how Terran has no new options. If Protoss reacts just a second too late vs those incredibly fast Medivacs a single Widow Mine hit can easily kill 8-10 Probes when pulled. Maybe not at the top top top level but below that certainly. Show nested quote +The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise. Well, same thing for every single Protoss opening you described, they are all easy to scout and lead Protoss down a pretty linear path build order wise. Show nested quote +Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D Possibly, but I am pretty sure the Oracle openings will disappear and only be used in one ot of three tournaments since it is a complete coinflip. For example if Terran opens with a fast factory and has a Widow Mine that kills the Oracle, Protoss will be forced to get at least another Oracle for detection (or a Robo and an Observer which takes long) leaving almost no Gas for fighting units, meaning a counter attack can be deadly.
bio got buffed? no it didnt.
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On February 04 2013 20:43 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 20:42 kyllinghest wrote:
I would have expected this thread to be the other way around, protoss has so many new both safe and dangerous openings that terran cannot scout unless he dumps gas in reapers. ...reapers, which delays answers to these dangerous openings so much that you still die to these
Chrono out an extra stalker, gg reapers. T cannot have more then 6-8 reapers, and if they do they are 1 basing, so just warp in the appropriate units at the appropriate times, seems like it would be very easy to shutdown.
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On February 04 2013 16:10 DemigodcelpH wrote:
Avilo is a high grandmaster player, and according to your post you're high-diamond; I recommend respecting your elders and not dismissing valid posts simply because you can't control your emotions.
The problem with that reasoning is that a lot of players who are much better than avilo think he is a complete clown.
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Really confused about this topic. If anything i think Protoss has gotten much better in the early game, The MC gives them much stronger pressure early and also much better defense, and the new reapers suck. What game are you playing dude?
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WTF srsly the only option terran has in hots is 1 rax fe since reapers suck and the nexus fortress can defend and kind of push or allin so the 6 rax, 1,1,1 and other stuff you listed are rendered useless, also stalkers outrange widow mines and oracles can detect. Use your FREE hallucination to get a FREE scout.
On the other hand terran has to deal with way more stuff in tvp that in wol. Protoss takes 2 gas and has unlimited options. Proxy oracle? DT? Blink? 3 gate robo? Voidray allin? Or just a FE with mothership core? Lets play the guessing game. Oh hey I guessed wrong, the oracle oneshotted all my scvs...
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On February 04 2013 23:06 Zorgaz wrote:
Really confused about this topic. If anything i think Protoss has gotten much better in the early game, The MC gives them much stronger pressure early and also much better defense, and the new reapers suck. What game are you playing dude?
Dont shortsell the content. I think that the OP brought about some good points. We really don't know what the viability of these early game protoss units really are. From my experiences.
The MSC has a lot of utility but has to be used at the right time. A standard MKP 2 rax aggression (not allin) will almost outright kill a Toss that rushes MSC. However, I think that you can pull off some really really greedy builds with MSC.
Reapers have a place, just don't know where yet. I think Day 9 got it right when he compared them to Helions in TvZ. The idea is not to lose your reapers, but to take advantage of their utility and constantly keep the Protoss off balance. Since it is such a fast and cheap unit.
My personal opinion is that Protoss are having problems with Mech pushes, Mid/early game Hellbat drops seem almost broken atm.
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On February 04 2013 23:09 Aquila- wrote:
WTF srsly the only option terran has in hots is 1 rax fe since reapers suck and the nexus fortress can defend and kind of push or allin so the 6 rax, 1,1,1 and other stuff you listed are rendered useless, also stalkers outrange widow mines and oracles can detect. Use your FREE hallucination to get a FREE scout.
On the other hand terran has to deal with way more stuff in tvp that in wol. Protoss takes 2 gas and has unlimited options. Proxy oracle? DT? Blink? 3 gate robo? Voidray allin? Or just a FE with mothership core? Lets play the guessing game. Oh hey I guessed wrong, the oracle oneshotted all my scvs...
TBH, all of the tech attacks you mentioned are very easily scouted and shut down. Double gas is a huge giveaway, Most T will just blindly build a turret if Toss hasn't expanded by 5:00 but took double gas. 1 Rax FE has so many variations right now, you can either completely shut down a harass, or get murdered by it depending on your build order/decision making.
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well this thread turned into a "protoss player say that they do not have too many or strong allins. But please tell me, what are the openings and allins terrans throw at you that you lose? Because i would like to know some of these allins so i dont have to play 1rax fe always. (It should work in the masterleague)
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Austria24422 Posts
Well, chronoboosted stalker seems to be the way to go if you scout a gas. If it's a reaper, you'll know because it will try to enter your base. Sentry followup + stalker pokes (if you got rid of the reaper) should give you enough scouting in time to hold most things + hold off 2 rax aggression for example. What might be adjusted now that high ground warpin is gone is warpgate research timing if some timings really need to be tweaked. What that'd do is give protoss that first warpin round earlier. The warpgate timing was basically only messed with because of 4gate which overall seems pretty damn useless in HotS except maybe vs a not scouting gasless 1 rax FE terran.
Stargate openings are now extremely potent if you scout a gas since oracles can be used both offensively and defensively and also have detection which means that stargate alone will counter banshee builds and will also do fairly well vs hellbat drops (which I expect will get nerfed in one way or another because they're currently too strong) as well as some kind of widow mine push.
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On February 04 2013 23:14 DeathScythe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 23:06 Zorgaz wrote:
Really confused about this topic. If anything i think Protoss has gotten much better in the early game, The MC gives them much stronger pressure early and also much better defense, and the new reapers suck. What game are you playing dude? Dont shortsell the content. I think that the OP brought about some good points. We really don't know what the viability of these early game protoss units really are. From my experiences. The MSC has a lot of utility but has to be used at the right time. A standard MKP 2 rax aggression (not allin) will almost outright kill a Toss that rushes MSC. However, I think that you can pull off some really really greedy builds with MSC. Reapers have a place, just don't know where yet. I think Day 9 got it right when he compared them to Helions in TvZ. The idea is not to lose your reapers, but to take advantage of their utility and constantly keep the Protoss off balance. Since it is such a fast and cheap unit. My personal opinion is that Protoss are having problems with Mech pushes, Mid/early game Hellbat drops seem almost broken atm.
I find medivac drops, especially the early stages relatively easy to stop. If i scout T going gas first, i'd just position my MSC near my main nexus,cast purify and focus the medivac as soon as it's near my nexus. The medivac should be destroyed quickly while the few stalkers and msc + purify should mop up the rest. At that point i should be economically ahead.
Also, i agree with the notion that MSC has provided a large portion of safe play for protoss in general. Random marine run by while my stalkers are pressuring their natural through recall is completely shut down. Even the 1 1 1 has issues dealing with purify and buys time for up to 2 immortals to be produced. Overall i feel that Protoss have an easier time defending than ever, especially versus Zerg. Terrans have their own timings, but any decent scouting will and should eliminate quite a number of pressures.
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I think protoss will need to get both 1 fast stalker and a msc early if he is playing blind, which is nothing compared to being forced to open 2 gate robo blindly in case of banshees or whatever.
you can scout with the msc long before a viking or stim is done, so you will be able to see whats cooming alot easier, also hallus no longer require an upgrade.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
There is just no excuse to not know exactly what the Terran is doing in PvT.
A fast Mothership Core/Stalker/Zealot poke after you scout gas first can only be "defended". It can't go poorly for you if you have decent control, you get a free marine kill usually. And you get to see if he took second gas, and/or his production structures.
From there, you can hallucinate a phoenix if you still need to know exactly what he is doing. There is nothing the Terran can do about this, except perhaps hope you fly your halluc phoenix right over a pack of marines before you scout everything.
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This thread is so stupid.
Protoss has a wide array of new openings, especially with the introduction of the Mothership core, and it has gotten noticably easier to hold all kinds of Terran pressure with your Planetary Fortress Nexus ability.
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As soon OP said he would try not to curse I knew not to take him seriously. I went from having a 70% win ratio TvP in HoTs (masters) to a 36% win ratio in HoTS because of the new openings protoss could do. Took me awhile to figure out now back above 40% . Also the only real new opening terran has is the hellbat drop. Any form of early pressure is stopped by the nexus cannon, If you're loosing to mass reapers as protoss with the new changes you should be ashamed of yourself - probably tried 1 gate gasless expo with no scout
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I'm no grandmaster, but watching koreans stream, it looks so terrible early game for Terran vs P. They have to split marines to handle pressure on the front, yet keep marines in the base to defend against MSC and then you have the incredibly quick oracle coming in left and right to snipe scvs.
The koreans are good enough to deal with it, but it looks damn hectic. Even with a bunker, a stalker, a zealot and a mothershipcore can just waltz past the first bunker...
Early game looks horrible, utterly horrible for Terran.
Then the koreans usually with their better micro proceed to dismantle the protoss with speed medivac harass. I thought multiple medivac harass by the likes of old greats like MMA was impressive, now with afterburners on the medivacs I can feel the frustration of zerg and toss opponents. If you have the apm to quick drop and load and afterburn, wow...
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are u sure you are even diamond?? there is a unit called sentry and it has free halluc phoenix, u can use chono stalker, msc, hell u can get lucky with the 9th pylon probe even. those mentioned does not even include advance structures. please.. qq for balance are for 12 y/os. hell you can even switch to terran if u cant take it, it is still always an option. im even sticking to P for easy warp ins ad it is crazy ridiculous.
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I love this thread.
OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP
What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game.
So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
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On February 04 2013 15:31 cohen5250 wrote:
WoL Master/ HotS high-Diamond Protoss player here. It's difficult for me to stay composed while typing this (e.g. not cursing at Blizzard for being incompetent in balancing their game), but I will do my best. It seems, to me at least, that Terran has far too many options in the early game, excluding the once-standard 1-Rax FE. In WoL, common builds included 1/1/1 All-In, 1/1/1 Expand, Marine-SCV all-in, 2-Rax Expand, 6-Rax push, Bunker rush, Concussive Shell rush, Hellion-drop rush, 2-Port Banshee, and many others that I can't think of at the moment.
In HotS, these options have increased to include mass-Reaper opening, Widow Mine rush, Siege Tank contain, Hellbat-drop rush (effectively replacing the Hellion-drop rush, being three times as strong). Needless to say, Terran easily has the greatest amount of openings/ early-game options of all three races, by an unfair margin.
Yeah, but they also basically lost the ability to safely CC first before rax every game without any fear. And you can't forget that protoss gained a much more powerful 1 base stargate allin that's actually usable. It's not as though Terran gained all these options, lost no options, and protoss gained none.
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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options?
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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
except some of the people that said "not really" about the OP's post were also protosses.
also scan is ACTUALLY A BAD WAY TO SCOUT IN THE EARLY GAME.
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On February 05 2013 04:05 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy". Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options?
1) Yes, but gas doesn't really give away anything. I scout gas almost every game but I'm not facing the same build everytime... I've even face terran faking gas for a quick expo.
2) The stalker can poke the ramp sure, but you'll be pretty tired if he proxied a rax with reapers or if he already sent reapers your way. Your inital stalker is the only thing you have versus reapers. Imagine poking at his ramp only to find out he has two reapers in your main (Sure, you can do damage with your stalker since terran lacks defense at home but I bet he'll do more damage
3) MsC scout all the base? I would like you to play a PvT where you are that confident that you can send your MsC to scout their whole base. It takes 100 seconds to get energy for a single planetary nexus so I'm very careful to risk since I don't have time to build another and get 100 energy if he opts for early attack. It's not like an overlord you can sacrifice...
Also, I played a game recently where I was going home with my MsC only to be intercepted på 7 - 10~ marines in the middle of the map, free kill - yay!
4) The new halluc is really good for scouting, I agree. That will probably be the "way to go" but if you use it early game when you have few sentries you're basically saying "God, I hope he doesn't attack now cause I have 2 ffs less than I would"
I like the way you say "maybe dont need", if I halluc a phoenix to scout and then realise he has a shitload of units outside of my base, I pretty much need those forcefields.
5) All terran seem to think that the MsC spawns with infinite energy. You suggest we use it offensive for scouting and killing workers and when the terran decides to attack we have both recall (100 energy) and planetary nexus (100 energy). I believe MsC starts with 50 energy and then 1 energy every 2 seconds? Takes a damn long time to get to 200 energy.
Again, all these discussions tend to be the same way. Both sides painting up pictures which suits their arguments while being quite irrelevant in a real game. The players are too big of a factor.
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On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:
Wall of Text.
Pretty much agree with everything said here. At the moment as Terran you are forced in to one of a few things in TvP. (Or PvT however you wish to look at it).
1. 1/1/1 All in. - Varies can be normal 1/1/1 which isn't as effective as it used to be. Hellbat drops or Mine drops.
2. 1rax FE - This is now quite possibly the most coin flip opening for Terran, what was once safe in WoL can now be a BO loss. Also miss macro one marine or get blocked you 100% lose to Oracle opening.
3. Rax, Factory FE. - Possibly the safest most eco opening currently? As long as you open double mine before hellions defends well vs Oracles and pokes at your wall. This is pretty much my go to build at the moment in TvP, Infact it seems pretty great in all match ups.
Can't really think of any other consistent builds if I've missed any feel free to let me know.
Where as for Toss: Everything Avilo mentioned. And 1gate FE - If toss does this, Terran cannot punish it (Not that I have seen other than coinflip drops no frontal push works, Maybe Reapers?), due to the fact they have to play so defensive. The only way to counter this is get lucky with a hellbat or Mine drop, but vs a good Protoss its still very coin flip. If you go 1/1/1 and it doesn't kill say 10+ probes. You will lose the Macro game as of the late expand - even this the toss will still be ahead due to 2 nexus to your one CC you would have to drop a third CC and play catch up.
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High masters(Possibly even gm) in WoL and Masters in HoTS here...So basically Avilo summed up everything....the mothership core literally is the way to scout what build the terrans are going...and the options terrans may go are quite predictable as opposed to toss all ins at the moment....TBH I think terrans can make new all ins that I'm not going to mention at this very moment just because I would rather keep these to myself until pro players find out or show these in pro games....as for people saying that terran can't punish 1 gate FE I still kinda think thats wrong....but its more likely due to your lack of micro with the mothership core now (as in it is MUCH easier to hold all ins than in WoL)
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the only thing i cant beat are mass mass reapers and hellbats drops (they just don't die!)
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On February 05 2013 16:49 NVRLand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 04:05 Dvriel wrote:On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy". Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options? 1) Yes, but gas doesn't really give away anything. I scout gas almost every game but I'm not facing the same build everytime... I've even face terran faking gas for a quick expo. 2) The stalker can poke the ramp sure, but you'll be pretty tired if he proxied a rax with reapers or if he already sent reapers your way. Your inital stalker is the only thing you have versus reapers. Imagine poking at his ramp only to find out he has two reapers in your main (Sure, you can do damage with your stalker since terran lacks defense at home but I bet he'll do more damage 3) MsC scout all the base? I would like you to play a PvT where you are that confident that you can send your MsC to scout their whole base. It takes 100 seconds to get energy for a single planetary nexus so I'm very careful to risk since I don't have time to build another and get 100 energy if he opts for early attack. It's not like an overlord you can sacrifice... Also, I played a game recently where I was going home with my MsC only to be intercepted på 7 - 10~ marines in the middle of the map, free kill - yay! 4) The new halluc is really good for scouting, I agree. That will probably be the "way to go" but if you use it early game when you have few sentries you're basically saying "God, I hope he doesn't attack now cause I have 2 ffs less than I would" I like the way you say "maybe dont need", if I halluc a phoenix to scout and then realise he has a shitload of units outside of my base, I pretty much need those forcefields. 5) All terran seem to think that the MsC spawns with infinite energy. You suggest we use it offensive for scouting and killing workers and when the terran decides to attack we have both recall (100 energy) and planetary nexus (100 energy). I believe MsC starts with 50 energy and then 1 energy every 2 seconds? Takes a damn long time to get to 200 energy. Again, all these discussions tend to be the same way. Both sides painting up pictures which suits their arguments while being quite irrelevant in a real game. The players are too big of a factor.
wow..really?? okay this is why there is a difference between gold league and masters or Non pro and pro. There is what you call game sense which develops each time you gain further understanding of a game.
my point is scouting is not 1 time thing.
You can say how about terran scans, it is direct and one time? well yes but he pays for it, it could have been a mule. but it is also same thing of a say halluc phoenix flying by checking your tech buildings.
For your problem, your scouting in the wrong situation and/or timing most likely.Not all situations are similar.
You just dont scout with your initial probe. even say the probe just found gas, yes so there are things you can cancel off to a list of all possible opening terran can make. You just don't use 1 option to scout and you just dont do the same thing always as protoss.
You cant just scout see something you are not sure and sit back and relax while you wait to max out and push your death ball. Yes maybe if your agains gold PvZ but hell not on a terran.
Situations may vary and people play styles can be unique too. And when this happens and people caught you by surprise guess what? they call you cheese,hacker etc. then whine.
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Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
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Protoss here. Mothership Core really helps a lot. especially early game to mid game. I sometimes lose to some gimmicky Terran openings, but I think Terran is pretty fine atm.
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On February 06 2013 00:04 shin_toss wrote:
Protoss here. Mothership Core really helps a lot. especially early game to mid game. I sometimes lose to some gimmicky Terran openings, but I think Terran is pretty fine atm.
still no answer to late game vs macro toss is a problem
Terran needs to play gimmicky or search for early advantage or the game is lost.
I hope to see an solution so both deathballs to evenly trade and then similar remax.
Or an other way preventing stale game and deathball compositions.
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Oracle absolutely destroys SCV lines/marines. You can easily put on 2-3 gate pressure with a couple or Oracles and come out way ahead vs a FE.
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On February 05 2013 23:51 woreyour wrote:
Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
I agree with you to a certain degree but a LOT of higher league players are obviously biased and use their league to justify their claims. For example, Nerchio posted a tweet during the "Zerg pwns everything"-era which said:
Another dose of whining: how can you have less than 80% win ratio as protoss in PvZ? You can win the game with 2 spells, vortex and FF
No, I'm not gonna accept whiners just because they are higher level. Thanks for assuming I'm gold btw, I'll go ahead and assume you're silver, just for the fun.
You have no idea what league I'm in and I have no idea what league you're in so cut the crap.
It's not like when you reach masters league you suddenly have an epiphany where you don't rage or balance whine anymore...
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The problem with some TvP openings is that they lack a real counter and don't include enough risks.
Double Proxy Reaper are a real pain in the ass. The first reaper arrives at your mineral line ~40 seconds before you have your first stalker if you go for a 13 gate or around 20 seconds when doing a 12 gate. The next wave of reaper come in around the time your first stalker pops out at which point it is 1 stalker against 3 reaper.
And that really is the issue with this opening as your are forced to continue producing stalker in order to keep up with the terran who expands behind his double proxy reaper.
The next thing that could hit you slightly before the 5 minute mark are widowmines, a good 1:30 minutes before you have your first detection out. It's an incredible annoying game of whack-a-mole where you are at risk of losing your mineralline and he can expand behind it.
The next thing that can occur are hellbat drops at 6:30-7:00 that can obliterate all your worker in just 2 shots. Some even mix in a widowmine to completely piss the protoss off as he won't have detection if he went for FE, stargate or templar tech.
And those are just some of the new harrasses added in hots. See, the problem I have with it is that there is not enough risk attached to those kind of aggression. A hellbat drop costs 500/100 and the chances of losing it are basically 0 with the new medivac booster. It can outright win the game with that move. If it doesn't, no problem. Medivacs and Hellbat are good units throughout the game and in direct engagements.
You can start to see the extends of those aggressive builds as more and more competent people start to stream and play hots.
It's even worse in 2vs2 games where you can face double proxy reaper + proxy widowmine into hellbat drop while the terran is expanding behind it. Some people seem to forget that there is more than just 1vs1 and I really do care equally about both modes. If something is strong in 1vs1 and completely broken in other game modes, it needs fixing.
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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
Scan still doesn't see the whole base + natural and it costs the Terran minerals.
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I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
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On February 06 2013 01:04 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
Fantasy got massively outplayed, and it looked like he had barely even touched HotS.
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On February 06 2013 00:40 NVRLand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 23:51 woreyour wrote:
Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
I agree with you to a certain degree but a LOT of higher league players are obviously biased and use their league to justify their claims. For example, Nerchio posted a tweet during the "Zerg pwns everything"-era which said: Show nested quote +Another dose of whining: how can you have less than 80% win ratio as protoss in PvZ? You can win the game with 2 spells, vortex and FF https://twitter.com/AcerNerchio/status/257873488096948225No, I'm not gonna accept whiners just because they are higher level. Thanks for assuming I'm gold btw, I'll go ahead and assume you're silver, just for the fun. You have no idea what league I'm in and I have no idea what league you're in so cut the crap. It's not like when you reach masters league you suddenly have an epiphany where you don't rage or balance whine anymore...
lol this post from Nerchio is not even a whine, its just him proly praising his race, happy to be zerg or trolling. 2nd post is just another trolling from a zerg as he is posibly hating the 2 spells. Also these examples of "whining post" you claim does not really present whining as in the level of this OP or say this line "terran OP", "marines imba". Do you really think whines from things only happening due to your bad play is acceptable and deserves to be heard? Whats the goal? Nerf a race or unit? Why not improve your gameplay?
Whiners are whiners whatever their league but I guess you cut higher league some slack since they deserve it. They have reach a far more understanding than you to shut down their claim. Hell did MC cried when his reign crumbled to ruins? NO, he continued to prove that people will most likely figure out his success and will find ways to deal with it. He continued to work on other ways to prove he is still a competition.
There is a difference between whining and supporting your claim with pure whining nonsense. People in higher leagues to a degree proved it since they are up there. Pro players can whine all they want since they are simply PROs, cream of the crop. You can support your whine with detailed non bias analysis, you can provide replays as well. However, whining for the sake of not liking or understanding somethings is plain dumb.
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All i know is the OP got pwned by avilo, and is now probably crying in his pillow. Anyway it is still too early, i mean remember how many changes there were from the sc2 beta to now? I mean 1 psi roaches,5 rax reaper.. Give it some time , and maybe if nothing else you have learned ONE thing, do NOT post on Team Liquid when u are heated.. especially if you are trying to have a discussion on balance.
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This post is completely backwards. Protoss dominates early game PvT now, it's Terran that dominates the midgame with super-speed medivacs and hellbats which can clear an entire mineral line in three seconds, and the lategame with ghost/viking. (which, like WoL, still has no counter)
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On February 06 2013 01:04 HeeroFX wrote:
I don't know protoss have a lot of options to defend terran all in or even just agressive terran builds. I think you shouldn't hate on Terran players because Terran can't compete late game against toss because toss have so much AOE and and can remax much quicker, and besides in MLG last night parting owned fantasy(granted he has less exp. than parting) 3-0 so I think Terran is the weaker race.
he would get owned by parting in WoL as well.
The skill gap is huge between the two
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It is shocking to me that a protoss would have this opinion on the beta. Even all my protoss friends all think the beta is blatantly imbalanced in favor of protoss (especially TvP early game) [range of skill mid-masters to GM]. Things have improved for Terran now that the MSC no longer has detection, and the reapers can derive more info without eating into early marine production as much (ie: production without techlab). In the current state the protoss has the capacity to win with substantially inferior mechanics; especially multitasking and reaction time. There are no scenarios in which protoss does not have the utility to come out ahead without having to rely on an opponent's mistake, which is what TvP seems to relies on if you want to be alive for more than 10 in-game minutes.
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You forgot all the proxy stuff. I've been proxied on that one map (akali wastes?) more than I've played standard games now.
Right now pvt has just regressed back to the early days of WoL, which should be expected with new expansion. Virtually every terran now either 1 bases me or does an early 2 base timing (usually opening with mine/hellbat drops into a expo into a marine/tank all in). It may seem like a lot right now, but people are still just figuring it out. It is frustrating to play against, because you know the terran is going to all in you (at least 80% of the time) but you just don't know how to tell which one yet. It just takes time to look for the clues (big marine count, for instance).
Currently I'm finding nexus first with super early MSC for holding off aggression is the best thing to do. It is strong against all the cheeses (except proxy stuff on alkali wastes), and gives you a big economy to out muscle the all-ins. They have a lot of (cheesy) options right now, you just haven't learned how to tell what is what. I don't think it is "too many." Most Americas terrans still can't pvt beyond 3 bases, just try to get to a long game.
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On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:08 Dvriel wrote:On February 04 2013 15:39 cohen5250 wrote:On February 04 2013 15:34 Dvriel wrote:
Also,you are Protoss Master from WoL and still havent realised there is CENTRY and free Hallucinations?Only use their energy for a Fenix and you got it And what to you propose I use to scout things that arrive earlier than Sentries, such as Reapers? Do as P always do: chrono stalker and so you kill the Reapere if you want,but being what are they now(no more bonus to light),they are only for scout.NExt unit is centry and the moment it got energy sent fenix to socut.NExt unit is MScore and you still can send it to the T base to scout. As well you can go MScore first and then centry and then stalker. Try Stargate after Cyber core.You got nice Oracles to harass and force T to make at least one turret(ebay as well) in each base to avoid losing 20 workers. This night I was watching DeMuslim and we all discuss the P openings.Avilo is right.DT,Oracle(proxy or not) and blink stalker rush are all 2 early gas and its pretty difficult to prepare for all this all-ins.Even you can only harass with 2 stalker+Mscore or Zealot/Stalker+Mscore.There are also Void RAys too...Terran cant even FE safe Yep. New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall. Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get. Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up. New void ray makes old void ray all-in still possible and more deadly. Blink stalker all-in...now more powerful with a mothership core. New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost. Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss. Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games. Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable. The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise. Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play. It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D
I agree with what has been posted here by Avilo, it is objective and parallels my experience from 500+ beta 1v1s.
My greatest frustration is with 1-base twighlight: Scouting it and not knowing if I need bunkers for the blink all-in, or turret for the DT rush. Making the wrong choice means there are not enough minerals to account for the other option, and it is a total binary win condition (ie: execution is irrelevant).
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On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo.
rly avilo ? please dont even start complainig about balance again .
protoss blink was nerfed cuz of your posts ,and now we have a less viable response to many things in blink stalker . pheonix in pvp , mutas in pvz etc.
Terran can still proxy 2 rax , he can still 2 rax expo, he can still 6 rax allin, he can still 1/1/1 with banshee , with helion drop , terran can still go fast 3CC , terran can still open with 1 rax expand into 3 rax fast starport ( wol standard )
And now even more then before , terran have a lot of timings ( yet unexplored ) in factory play .
protoss gets a new opening /sortof into 12 gate 14 gas zealot stalker msc( chrono stalker and ms core ) and expand at 4:00-4:20 then starting warp gate .
not to mention you hold MOST of allins that protoss can do with 2 sige tanks ( remember some games where mc did 5 gate push vs puma on cloud kingdom and puma's awnser was 1 sige tank to high ground ( yes when sige mode was still an upgrade ) . protoss rly that have and is threatening now is oracle opening wich by the way is only viable vs mech * . so ye protoss got no new opening ( that are viable ) besides the 2 that i just mentioned . while terran has still a lot more and now is even safer vs allins .
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On February 06 2013 01:55 xsnac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 15:58 avilo wrote:
Protoss actually is the one with a myriad of different and new all-ins whereas the Terran's only real option is 1/1/1 all-in or 1 rax expo. rly avilo ? please dont even start complainig about balance again . protoss blink was nerfed cuz of your posts ,and now we have a less viable response to many things in blink stalker . pheonix in pvp , mutas in pvz etc. Terran can still proxy 2 rax , he can still 2 rax expo, he can still 6 rax allin, he can still 1/1/1 with banshee , with helion drop , terran can still go fast 3CC , terran can still open with 1 rax expand into 3 rax fast starport ( wol standard ) And now even more then before , terran have a lot of timings ( yet unexplored ) in factory play . protoss gets a new opening /sortof into 12 gate 14 gas zealot stalker msc( chrono stalker and ms core ) and expand at 4:00-4:20 then starting warp gate . not to mention you hold MOST of allins that protoss can do with 2 sige tanks ( remember some games where mc did 5 gate push vs puma on cloud kingdom and puma's awnser was 1 sige tank to high ground ( yes when sige mode was still an upgrade ) . protoss rly that have and is threatening now is oracle opening wich by the way is only viable vs mech * . so ye protoss got no new opening ( that are viable ) besides the 2 that i just mentioned . while terran has still a lot more and now is even safer vs allins .
Actually Puma had 2 Tanks not one.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I came to this thread expecting the whine to be the other way, I think the OP just lost several T games and is annoyed about the gatekeepers of masters league beating him. Face it OP, P is not having trouble with T and Blizzard is in no way incompetent of balancing their game.
btw, its i.e. not e.g.
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On February 06 2013 01:31 WhalesFromSpace wrote:
It is shocking to me that a protoss would have this opinion on the beta. Even all my protoss friends all think the beta is blatantly imbalanced in favor of protoss (especially TvP early game) [range of skill mid-masters to GM].
This is the opinion of virtually everyone I've talked to as well. Planetary nexus changed the matchup completely.
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Hellbats are certainly going to get a nerf because right now they are way too good. So while they are seeing a lot of play now we have to wait and see if they are going to remain a strong aggressive option. Other than that I really don't see how Terran can even be considered a threat before the 10 minute mark especially when expanding.
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EPT
