On February 04 2013 19:44 rEalGuapo wrote:So I know you are a full time player but I also know that there are a lot of Pros out there that are incredibly biased. What you wrote here seems wrong to me. I don't know how much HotS you play and I know that the lagg and the fact that even after a thousand games you can die to something new sometimes gets the better of me. I think the same happened here to you.
Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:
New mothership core = free scout, free SCV kills, Terran has to have marines, can sometimes even die to 1 zealot 2 stalkers MSC hitting depot wall.
100-100 is free? Well then you got Bunkers and Marines that even generate money for you, make those.
Also I see a lot of Terrans that die to this flame how imba Protoss is!
Protoss delays tech (even warpgate) for this attack and Terrans only ever die if they go for fast 3CC and double gas. In my eyes Terran should always die to every aggression when opening this way, as it forces Protoss into an all-in by the time they discover it, since it is usually to late to catch up in economy.
That is in WoL. In HotS opening up that greedy will either get you a fast loss or Protoss scouts it a lot more early and can react without being forced all-in. This removes a gamble aspect and I think that is always good.
Fast 3CC + fast tech against a safe Protoss is pretty much a freewin as it is a defenite loss against any one-base all in.
Show nested quote +Faster DT shrine, now DT freewins are more available, as well as DT drops. Same thing with archons are easier to get.
Building time has not changed at all, the difference is mainly that you are a bit safer against early agression because you can afford an extra Sentry.
It is not FASTER. Protoss didn't finish the Twilight Council and then wait for an extra 100 Gas...
Show nested quote +Oracle is essentially a flying DT in the way it's possible to get a freewin by killing ~8-10 scvs with this, Terran has to have marines off a 1 rax FE or they have to go 1/1/1 with viking/mine. Detection on oracle also means Protoss is completely safe from any cloak banshee type of follow up.
Terran has to have Marines after scouting double Gas? So what, double Gas means Tech, Tech means a lot less economy, Terran can afford to make more Marines and one or two extra Bunkers and still be ahead.
An Oracly killing 8-10 SCVs actually somewhat evens the scores due to the way later Nexus. The Nexus will be at least 2 minutes delayed and that means roughly 10 Probes worth of production (with Chronoboost).
Oracle detection is really nice but it also means that the Oracle will not be able to participate in a following battle. Also you can see the Oracle a lot better and just retreat, come back 15 seconds later and if the Oracle doesn't have another 50 energy, there is no detection. It's not as great as it sounds to have a unit that is only capable of detecting OR fighting and has somewhat short detection time.
No more high-ground warpins mean that at least some variants of the VR allin are non-existent anymore.
Yes, the new Void Ray is really strong against Bunkers and Missile Turrets but it is way worse against Marines as you can not charge it up on rocks beforehand as you would have with the old one. It is stronger and weaker at the same time. I don't play it though, I could be wrong on this one and maybe it is broken.
Blink now takes 20 more seconds to research. High Ground warpins are no longer an issue. I doubt that it is that much stronger now..
Show nested quote +New tempest added into standard P deathball = stronger deathball at no cost.
Stargate; Fleetbeacon; Tempest has no cost? Also Tempests are terrible against Bio, which got buffed a lot.
Show nested quote +Aside from all of the above new things (and i probably missed a few more) all of the old builds still work, such as standard 3 gate robo expand, not to mention all of the other all-ins like immortal allin, 4 gate warp prism, 3 gate pressure with FF on bunker...the list goes on for Protoss.
Yep! Protoss has a lot of different options. So does Terran, sounds pretty ok to me.
Show nested quote +Terran has no new options that have the potential to outright end the game that are as strong as the new Protoss options. A DT rush, or an oracle, or killing depots for free at the Terrans wall, or blink stalker with MSC...these all outright can 100% win games.
So can a single Widow Mine hit, dropped from an incredible fast Medivac.
Or a Hellbats in a mineral line.
Or Hellion drop + 8 Marine push
Or a cloaked Banshee vs Stargate and low energy Oracles (not likely but happens)
The list goes on for Terran.
Show nested quote +Widow mines/hellbats from Terran...widow mines vs good Protoss are mostly used for defense or gimmick drops (the only new thing we have) and same thing for hellbats. But both of these are the only new gimmick options which involve 1/1/1 type of builds which are easily predictable.
You can also open up this way and get into mech, also you just wrote how Terran has no new options.
If Protoss reacts just a second too late vs those incredibly fast Medivacs a single Widow Mine hit can easily kill 8-10 Probes when pulled. Maybe not at the top top top level but below that certainly.
Show nested quote +The only thing I think a case could be made for here that can outright end the game is a 4 hellbat drop with speed medivacs, but even that is easy to scout and stop and leads Terran down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Well, same thing for every single Protoss opening you described, they are all easy to scout and lead Protoss down a pretty linear path build order wise.
Show nested quote +Basically OP you have no clue what you're talking about or haven't explored the 50 different things you can do PvT, maybe it's just a lack of experience! I'd suggest you enhance your perspective and play some Terran on ladder and it will help out your Protoss play.
It'd be nice if other expert Terrans chipped in their opinions on the forums every now and then, but no one wants to be labeled as a "balance whiner" so they usually let me take the flames from everyone while they sit in their caves and then 8 months from now they'll say the same exact thing I just said and people will applaud them for it :D
Possibly, but I am pretty sure the Oracle openings will disappear and only be used in one ot of three tournaments since it is a complete coinflip. For example if Terran opens with a fast factory and has a Widow Mine that kills the Oracle, Protoss will be forced to get at least another Oracle for detection (or a Robo and an Observer which takes long) leaving almost no Gas for fighting units, meaning a counter attack can be deadly.
EPT
