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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
There is just no excuse to not know exactly what the Terran is doing in PvT.
A fast Mothership Core/Stalker/Zealot poke after you scout gas first can only be "defended". It can't go poorly for you if you have decent control, you get a free marine kill usually. And you get to see if he took second gas, and/or his production structures.
From there, you can hallucinate a phoenix if you still need to know exactly what he is doing. There is nothing the Terran can do about this, except perhaps hope you fly your halluc phoenix right over a pack of marines before you scout everything.
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This thread is so stupid.
Protoss has a wide array of new openings, especially with the introduction of the Mothership core, and it has gotten noticably easier to hold all kinds of Terran pressure with your Planetary Fortress Nexus ability.
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As soon OP said he would try not to curse I knew not to take him seriously. I went from having a 70% win ratio TvP in HoTs (masters) to a 36% win ratio in HoTS because of the new openings protoss could do. Took me awhile to figure out now back above 40%  . Also the only real new opening terran has is the hellbat drop. Any form of early pressure is stopped by the nexus cannon, If you're loosing to mass reapers as protoss with the new changes you should be ashamed of yourself - probably tried 1 gate gasless expo with no scout
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I'm no grandmaster, but watching koreans stream, it looks so terrible early game for Terran vs P. They have to split marines to handle pressure on the front, yet keep marines in the base to defend against MSC and then you have the incredibly quick oracle coming in left and right to snipe scvs.
The koreans are good enough to deal with it, but it looks damn hectic. Even with a bunker, a stalker, a zealot and a mothershipcore can just waltz past the first bunker...
Early game looks horrible, utterly horrible for Terran.
Then the koreans usually with their better micro proceed to dismantle the protoss with speed medivac harass. I thought multiple medivac harass by the likes of old greats like MMA was impressive, now with afterburners on the medivacs I can feel the frustration of zerg and toss opponents. If you have the apm to quick drop and load and afterburn, wow...
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are u sure you are even diamond?? there is a unit called sentry and it has free halluc phoenix, u can use chono stalker, msc, hell u can get lucky with the 9th pylon probe even. those mentioned does not even include advance structures. please.. qq for balance are for 12 y/os. hell you can even switch to terran if u cant take it, it is still always an option. im even sticking to P for easy warp ins ad it is crazy ridiculous.
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I love this thread.
OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP
What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game.
So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
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On February 04 2013 15:31 cohen5250 wrote:
WoL Master/ HotS high-Diamond Protoss player here. It's difficult for me to stay composed while typing this (e.g. not cursing at Blizzard for being incompetent in balancing their game), but I will do my best. It seems, to me at least, that Terran has far too many options in the early game, excluding the once-standard 1-Rax FE. In WoL, common builds included 1/1/1 All-In, 1/1/1 Expand, Marine-SCV all-in, 2-Rax Expand, 6-Rax push, Bunker rush, Concussive Shell rush, Hellion-drop rush, 2-Port Banshee, and many others that I can't think of at the moment.
In HotS, these options have increased to include mass-Reaper opening, Widow Mine rush, Siege Tank contain, Hellbat-drop rush (effectively replacing the Hellion-drop rush, being three times as strong). Needless to say, Terran easily has the greatest amount of openings/ early-game options of all three races, by an unfair margin.
Yeah, but they also basically lost the ability to safely CC first before rax every game without any fear. And you can't forget that protoss gained a much more powerful 1 base stargate allin that's actually usable. It's not as though Terran gained all these options, lost no options, and protoss gained none.
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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options?
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On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy".
except some of the people that said "not really" about the OP's post were also protosses.
also scan is ACTUALLY A BAD WAY TO SCOUT IN THE EARLY GAME.
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On February 05 2013 04:05 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy". Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options?
1) Yes, but gas doesn't really give away anything. I scout gas almost every game but I'm not facing the same build everytime... I've even face terran faking gas for a quick expo.
2) The stalker can poke the ramp sure, but you'll be pretty tired if he proxied a rax with reapers or if he already sent reapers your way. Your inital stalker is the only thing you have versus reapers. Imagine poking at his ramp only to find out he has two reapers in your main (Sure, you can do damage with your stalker since terran lacks defense at home but I bet he'll do more damage
3) MsC scout all the base? I would like you to play a PvT where you are that confident that you can send your MsC to scout their whole base. It takes 100 seconds to get energy for a single planetary nexus so I'm very careful to risk since I don't have time to build another and get 100 energy if he opts for early attack. It's not like an overlord you can sacrifice...
Also, I played a game recently where I was going home with my MsC only to be intercepted på 7 - 10~ marines in the middle of the map, free kill - yay!
4) The new halluc is really good for scouting, I agree. That will probably be the "way to go" but if you use it early game when you have few sentries you're basically saying "God, I hope he doesn't attack now cause I have 2 ffs less than I would"
I like the way you say "maybe dont need", if I halluc a phoenix to scout and then realise he has a shitload of units outside of my base, I pretty much need those forcefields.
5) All terran seem to think that the MsC spawns with infinite energy. You suggest we use it offensive for scouting and killing workers and when the terran decides to attack we have both recall (100 energy) and planetary nexus (100 energy). I believe MsC starts with 50 energy and then 1 energy every 2 seconds? Takes a damn long time to get to 200 energy.
Again, all these discussions tend to be the same way. Both sides painting up pictures which suits their arguments while being quite irrelevant in a real game. The players are too big of a factor.
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On February 04 2013 16:24 avilo wrote:
Wall of Text.
Pretty much agree with everything said here. At the moment as Terran you are forced in to one of a few things in TvP. (Or PvT however you wish to look at it).
1. 1/1/1 All in. - Varies can be normal 1/1/1 which isn't as effective as it used to be. Hellbat drops or Mine drops.
2. 1rax FE - This is now quite possibly the most coin flip opening for Terran, what was once safe in WoL can now be a BO loss. Also miss macro one marine or get blocked you 100% lose to Oracle opening.
3. Rax, Factory FE. - Possibly the safest most eco opening currently? As long as you open double mine before hellions defends well vs Oracles and pokes at your wall. This is pretty much my go to build at the moment in TvP, Infact it seems pretty great in all match ups.
Can't really think of any other consistent builds if I've missed any feel free to let me know.
Where as for Toss: Everything Avilo mentioned. And 1gate FE - If toss does this, Terran cannot punish it (Not that I have seen other than coinflip drops no frontal push works, Maybe Reapers?), due to the fact they have to play so defensive. The only way to counter this is get lucky with a hellbat or Mine drop, but vs a good Protoss its still very coin flip. If you go 1/1/1 and it doesn't kill say 10+ probes. You will lose the Macro game as of the late expand - even this the toss will still be ahead due to 2 nexus to your one CC you would have to drop a third CC and play catch up.
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High masters(Possibly even gm) in WoL and Masters in HoTS here...So basically Avilo summed up everything....the mothership core literally is the way to scout what build the terrans are going...and the options terrans may go are quite predictable as opposed to toss all ins at the moment....TBH I think terrans can make new all ins that I'm not going to mention at this very moment just because I would rather keep these to myself until pro players find out or show these in pro games....as for people saying that terran can't punish 1 gate FE I still kinda think thats wrong....but its more likely due to your lack of micro with the mothership core now (as in it is MUCH easier to hold all ins than in WoL)
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the only thing i cant beat are mass mass reapers and hellbats drops (they just don't die!)
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On February 05 2013 16:49 NVRLand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 04:05 Dvriel wrote:On February 05 2013 03:21 NVRLand wrote:I love this thread. OP is obviously biased and then the terrans come in here and say "I'm not biased but..." and post an exactly as biased post as OP What I think is the problem is not the amount of openings but the way it's really hard to find out which one the opponent is doing. A terran will never have this problem versus protoss since they have scan and protoss never wall against terran. Protoss however, can only hope to get enough scouting with their inital probe to either prepare for an all-in or play macro game. So, I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. The "whine" isn't "TERRAN CAN DO SOO MANY OPENINGS AND PROTOSS HAS NONE!" but more like "Terran can do so many damn openings that looks the same but can either be stupidly all-in or extremely greedy". Only the inicial probe as scout?You got HotS?Have you played the game? The probe can see if there is gas and if your are FE or not.Then come the Stalker and still can see if you are maybe going for hellion reactor or are expanding.The MScore can even attack your mineral line and still scout ALL your base and go home losing some shields.IF you build a single Sentry and Hallucinate a Phoenix you can also scout the entire Terran base and will only lose 100 energy or 2 FF that you maybe dont need.You got the recall if you want to poke with Zealot,stalker and MScore and "teletransport" home if you need.Also can cast 13 range Planetary Nexus.You need more scouting and defense options? 1) Yes, but gas doesn't really give away anything. I scout gas almost every game but I'm not facing the same build everytime... I've even face terran faking gas for a quick expo. 2) The stalker can poke the ramp sure, but you'll be pretty tired if he proxied a rax with reapers or if he already sent reapers your way. Your inital stalker is the only thing you have versus reapers. Imagine poking at his ramp only to find out he has two reapers in your main (Sure, you can do damage with your stalker since terran lacks defense at home but I bet he'll do more damage 3) MsC scout all the base? I would like you to play a PvT where you are that confident that you can send your MsC to scout their whole base. It takes 100 seconds to get energy for a single planetary nexus so I'm very careful to risk since I don't have time to build another and get 100 energy if he opts for early attack. It's not like an overlord you can sacrifice... Also, I played a game recently where I was going home with my MsC only to be intercepted på 7 - 10~ marines in the middle of the map, free kill - yay! 4) The new halluc is really good for scouting, I agree. That will probably be the "way to go" but if you use it early game when you have few sentries you're basically saying "God, I hope he doesn't attack now cause I have 2 ffs less than I would" I like the way you say "maybe dont need", if I halluc a phoenix to scout and then realise he has a shitload of units outside of my base, I pretty much need those forcefields. 5) All terran seem to think that the MsC spawns with infinite energy. You suggest we use it offensive for scouting and killing workers and when the terran decides to attack we have both recall (100 energy) and planetary nexus (100 energy). I believe MsC starts with 50 energy and then 1 energy every 2 seconds? Takes a damn long time to get to 200 energy. Again, all these discussions tend to be the same way. Both sides painting up pictures which suits their arguments while being quite irrelevant in a real game. The players are too big of a factor.
wow..really?? okay this is why there is a difference between gold league and masters or Non pro and pro. There is what you call game sense which develops each time you gain further understanding of a game.
my point is scouting is not 1 time thing.
You can say how about terran scans, it is direct and one time? well yes but he pays for it, it could have been a mule. but it is also same thing of a say halluc phoenix flying by checking your tech buildings.
For your problem, your scouting in the wrong situation and/or timing most likely.Not all situations are similar.
You just dont scout with your initial probe. even say the probe just found gas, yes so there are things you can cancel off to a list of all possible opening terran can make. You just don't use 1 option to scout and you just dont do the same thing always as protoss.
You cant just scout see something you are not sure and sit back and relax while you wait to max out and push your death ball. Yes maybe if your agains gold PvZ but hell not on a terran.
Situations may vary and people play styles can be unique too. And when this happens and people caught you by surprise guess what? they call you cheese,hacker etc. then whine.
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Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
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Protoss here. Mothership Core really helps a lot. especially early game to mid game. I sometimes lose to some gimmicky Terran openings, but I think Terran is pretty fine atm.
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On February 06 2013 00:04 shin_toss wrote:
Protoss here. Mothership Core really helps a lot. especially early game to mid game. I sometimes lose to some gimmicky Terran openings, but I think Terran is pretty fine atm.
still no answer to late game vs macro toss is a problem
Terran needs to play gimmicky or search for early advantage or the game is lost.
I hope to see an solution so both deathballs to evenly trade and then similar remax.
Or an other way preventing stale game and deathball compositions.
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Oracle absolutely destroys SCV lines/marines. You can easily put on 2-3 gate pressure with a couple or Oracles and come out way ahead vs a FE.
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On February 05 2013 23:51 woreyour wrote:
Not to be a douche but sometimes I really think people in lower league should stop and think before defending their claim of say X and X since they should always THINK! before posting nonsense. Hell give credit to higher league people.
Why? because they have better knowlegde logically about the game since they reached that high in the food chain.
Instead of whinning and defending such invalid claims why not understand why higher league people than you choose to provide information on how it is in their view. Try to understand the logic of their comments or suggestions. Maybe this could help you advance your understanding, taking their view point about the discussion and easily accelerate your learning. After such awakening, try applying it and perfecting it.
Dont just fuckiung whine and whine like bitches, suck it up, man up and use thy brain.
I agree with you to a certain degree but a LOT of higher league players are obviously biased and use their league to justify their claims. For example, Nerchio posted a tweet during the "Zerg pwns everything"-era which said:
Another dose of whining: how can you have less than 80% win ratio as protoss in PvZ? You can win the game with 2 spells, vortex and FF
No, I'm not gonna accept whiners just because they are higher level. Thanks for assuming I'm gold btw, I'll go ahead and assume you're silver, just for the fun.
You have no idea what league I'm in and I have no idea what league you're in so cut the crap.
It's not like when you reach masters league you suddenly have an epiphany where you don't rage or balance whine anymore...
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The problem with some TvP openings is that they lack a real counter and don't include enough risks.
Double Proxy Reaper are a real pain in the ass. The first reaper arrives at your mineral line ~40 seconds before you have your first stalker if you go for a 13 gate or around 20 seconds when doing a 12 gate. The next wave of reaper come in around the time your first stalker pops out at which point it is 1 stalker against 3 reaper.
And that really is the issue with this opening as your are forced to continue producing stalker in order to keep up with the terran who expands behind his double proxy reaper.
The next thing that could hit you slightly before the 5 minute mark are widowmines, a good 1:30 minutes before you have your first detection out. It's an incredible annoying game of whack-a-mole where you are at risk of losing your mineralline and he can expand behind it.
The next thing that can occur are hellbat drops at 6:30-7:00 that can obliterate all your worker in just 2 shots. Some even mix in a widowmine to completely piss the protoss off as he won't have detection if he went for FE, stargate or templar tech.
And those are just some of the new harrasses added in hots. See, the problem I have with it is that there is not enough risk attached to those kind of aggression. A hellbat drop costs 500/100 and the chances of losing it are basically 0 with the new medivac booster. It can outright win the game with that move. If it doesn't, no problem. Medivacs and Hellbat are good units throughout the game and in direct engagements.
You can start to see the extends of those aggressive builds as more and more competent people start to stream and play hots.
It's even worse in 2vs2 games where you can face double proxy reaper + proxy widowmine into hellbat drop while the terran is expanding behind it. Some people seem to forget that there is more than just 1vs1 and I really do care equally about both modes. If something is strong in 1vs1 and completely broken in other game modes, it needs fixing.
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EPT
