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On January 11 2013 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:43 shid0x wrote:
well,after playing a few games i'm not that unhappy after all.
The reaper nerf is good,now TvT isn't reaper wars anymore,it seems that blizzard wanted to give terran some overlord or phenix type of scouting unit,well with the new speed and poor damages of the reaper its done ^^
And its a good thing imo Have your expectations for Blizzard sunk so low that the easiest of fixes, a fix that impacts absolutely nothing except the unit in question, to unbreak something Blizzard themselves broke... is an accomplishment? They took WoL Reapers, broke them completely, then reverted them back to roughly WoL levels of uselessness. This took four months. That does not deserve praise. They might as well have not touched the unit whatsoever in this expansion for all the good it's done. T has a strong early game and a weak late game. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that experimenting with a tier 2-3 Reaper would be much more worthwhile than going back once again to the precarious balancing act that is a tier 1 harass unit.
This; It seems that blizzard once again has given up an balancing the reaper and just nerfed them so they are completely useless. Also, anyone who actively think that a 50-50 scout unit that takes forever to be build and doesn't provide reliable scouting information is a great thing..... your wrong.
Its extremely overpriced. 50 minerals 0 gas would be more appropriate.
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On January 11 2013 15:06 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 11 2013 02:43 shid0x wrote:
well,after playing a few games i'm not that unhappy after all.
The reaper nerf is good,now TvT isn't reaper wars anymore,it seems that blizzard wanted to give terran some overlord or phenix type of scouting unit,well with the new speed and poor damages of the reaper its done ^^
And its a good thing imo Have your expectations for Blizzard sunk so low that the easiest of fixes, a fix that impacts absolutely nothing except the unit in question, to unbreak something Blizzard themselves broke... is an accomplishment? They took WoL Reapers, broke them completely, then reverted them back to roughly WoL levels of uselessness. This took four months. That does not deserve praise. They might as well have not touched the unit whatsoever in this expansion for all the good it's done. T has a strong early game and a weak late game. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that experimenting with a tier 2-3 Reaper would be much more worthwhile than going back once again to the precarious balancing act that is a tier 1 harass unit. It's even worse than this if you think about it. In WoL beta (early release?) reapers were overpowered ( Morrow's 5 rax reaper rush). Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. HoTS starts, reapers are OP again. Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. They're repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There seems to be a clear lack of learning, which is pretty distressing, considering they'd been talking about changing the reaper in HoTS months before the beta was close to being out.
Lets give "credit" where "credit" is due. At the time Lzgamer becan discovering the strenghts of massing reapers early game against zerg (late beta), Morrow posted on TL how useless the nitropack upgrade was as reapers were still slower than speedlings (yep you'll find the post if you look long enough).
Then 1 month into release basically every foreign terran player (at a decent level) opened mass reapers game, but since Morrow won IEM (which wasn't even because of reapers, as top zergs back then had learned to counter it pretty well), he apparantly gets acknowledged for "inventing" the build (which is pretty ironic).
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I really like this idea.
Still doesn't solve the problem with mech and the weird changes they made to the tank.
On January 11 2013 17:18 drkcid wrote:
Blizzard is transforming reapers into a pure scout unit so, why no make the reapers require Engineering Bay and give them some deployable detection device, so terrans can have small radius detection (example wards in lol or dota 2) the whole game without wasting scans or needing something gas heavy like ravens.
So the jump over clifts skill will be usefull to scout, place devices, and keep vision over the map and the reaper will have a significant and a clear role.
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On January 11 2013 17:18 drkcid wrote:
Blizzard is transforming reapers into a pure scout unit so, why no make the reapers require Engineering Bay and give them some deployable detection device, so terrans can have small radius detection (example wards in lol or dota 2) the whole game without wasting scans or needing something gas heavy like ravens.
So the jump over clifts skill will be usefull to scout, place devices, and keep vision over the map and the reaper will have a significant and a clear role.
Why should we just accept every "role" that blizzard pidgeonholes a unit into? What I loved about the reaper was the harass potential and the ability to do extra damage to buildings while jumping up and down cliffs. It was thrilling to send a few reapers into the zerg base, and try to micro against the speedlings while macroing at the same time, and then trying to get away in the nick of time. And now because reapers are too "strong" they have to be nerfed to just scouting? Why couldn't they just focus on what made the reapers fun instead of what makes them even more useless? Is this really the best thing they could come up with to fix the reaper? For real?
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I read way too many posts hating on this patch. We all seem to forget that the idea behind patching is to move toward a more balanced, more fun game experience. These changes, for all we know, may be reverted in the next patch anyway. That being said, I think they are moving the correct direction with the reaper. Make it a micro-intense unit with great maneuverability. It has not been relegated to a scouting only role, it just has been made weaker vs light because of how good the healing ability is. I think it still needs work, because without changing the cost or build time the unit feels clunky to build (even out of a reactor). Imho- it either needs one of two things. Damage changed from 4/shot to 5/shot or range +1 or build time decreased or gas cost reduced to 25. Any of these proposed changes would CONTINUE to move the reaper towards a dynamic, playable unit.
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On January 11 2013 23:58 Zoltan wrote:
I read way too many posts hating on this patch. We all seem to forget that the idea behind patching is to move toward a more balanced, more fun game experience. These changes, for all we know, may be reverted in the next patch anyway. That being said, I think they are moving the correct direction with the reaper. Make it a micro-intense unit with great maneuverability. It has not been relegated to a scouting only role, it just has been made weaker vs light because of how good the healing ability is. I think it still needs work, because without changing the cost or build time the unit feels clunky to build (even out of a reactor). Imho- it either needs one of two things. Damage changed from 4/shot to 5/shot or range +1 or build time decreased or gas cost reduced to 25. Any of these proposed changes would CONTINUE to move the reaper towards a dynamic, playable unit.
Incentives not only don't equal facts, but more importantly, no one care about the incentives. I have no doubt that the worst games out there were made with the best intentions.
Also, you seem to forget that Blizzard most likely wouldn't release huge patchs a few weeks before the official release, thus there is not that many time left to fix things.
The way they are implementing, reverting, re-reverting, these insane nerf/buff left and right, like leaving the infestor with a 10 range fungal, seem to indicate that they have no idea of what the fuck they are doing.
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On January 11 2013 17:18 drkcid wrote:
Blizzard is transforming reapers into a pure scout unit so, why no make the reapers require Engineering Bay and give them some deployable detection device, so terrans can have small radius detection (example wards in lol or dota 2) the whole game without wasting scans or needing something gas heavy like ravens.
So the jump over clifts skill will be usefull to scout, place devices, and keep vision over the map and the reaper will have a significant and a clear role.
I like that idea. Remove xel naga, gives the races ways to see the map.
Zerg already has lings, overlords, changelings, overseers and creepspread for map vision. Could give reapers wards to see around the map.
Doesn't protoss have some sort of visibility spell on the oracle or something?
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On January 10 2013 07:18 NewDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 07:16 Noocta wrote:
Well, you can reactor reapers now.. but they suck balls anyway so why bother.
The tank buff is nice to deal with some all in in TvZ and will allow to not have some silly losses in TvT but beside that it does nothing.
Loving the seeker revert tho. 75 energy on old seeker missile is god like. So godlike I guess it will be nerfed.
Medivac upgrade doesn't increase healing, but what does it do then now ? +25 Energy? :c Tank buff will save me from those random games where I forget to upgrade siege.. but it does let you get out one extra tank because you saved money! :D
The tank change will almost always let you get an extra tech building out, not an extra tank necessarily, that depends on your timing.
Anyhow I can not see how teching to mech was the issue, having a good midgame with mech was. I do not get it change, it does not make any sense.
Personally I like the reaper change people that say that the damage is too low is overly whiney, it might need an slight damage boost versus light but not much. I am talking maybe +1 versus light, reapers would then 4 shot probes and drones.
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As far as the Reaper is concerned, I think it's just a question of addressing the build time, cost, damage and tech tree advantages of the unit, for instance if Blizzard reduced the Gas cost to 25, changed the damage to 8 damage flat and gave Reapers Stim Packs it'd be a whole new unit. Essentially Reapers need to be more expensive, less flexible Marines in terms of their range and ability to target air in favor of being faster and more maneuverable on the ground.
The healing is just a retarded gimmic.
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Does anyone else think its strange that Blizzard decided to make so many changes to Terran when it seems like everyone had been complaining about Protoss being too strong?
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On January 12 2013 04:26 Disastorm wrote:
Does anyone else think its strange that Blizzard decided to make so many changes to Terran when it seems like everyone had been complaining about Protoss being too strong?
One thing at a time, i'd assume.
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On January 12 2013 04:30 Tor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:26 Disastorm wrote:
Does anyone else think its strange that Blizzard decided to make so many changes to Terran when it seems like everyone had been complaining about Protoss being too strong? One thing at a time, i'd assume.
Yea I was thinking (and hoping) the same thing. Perhaps this was their "Terran patch", maybe next will be a "Protoss patch" and maybe a "Zerg patch" (If needed) will follow, although to be honest if this is what they are doing its a pretty poor method of patching since you don't get to see how the changes interact with each other until all the changes are out.
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On January 11 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 15:06 Swords wrote:On January 11 2013 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 11 2013 02:43 shid0x wrote:
well,after playing a few games i'm not that unhappy after all.
The reaper nerf is good,now TvT isn't reaper wars anymore,it seems that blizzard wanted to give terran some overlord or phenix type of scouting unit,well with the new speed and poor damages of the reaper its done ^^
And its a good thing imo Have your expectations for Blizzard sunk so low that the easiest of fixes, a fix that impacts absolutely nothing except the unit in question, to unbreak something Blizzard themselves broke... is an accomplishment? They took WoL Reapers, broke them completely, then reverted them back to roughly WoL levels of uselessness. This took four months. That does not deserve praise. They might as well have not touched the unit whatsoever in this expansion for all the good it's done. T has a strong early game and a weak late game. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that experimenting with a tier 2-3 Reaper would be much more worthwhile than going back once again to the precarious balancing act that is a tier 1 harass unit. It's even worse than this if you think about it. In WoL beta (early release?) reapers were overpowered ( Morrow's 5 rax reaper rush). Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. HoTS starts, reapers are OP again. Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. They're repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There seems to be a clear lack of learning, which is pretty distressing, considering they'd been talking about changing the reaper in HoTS months before the beta was close to being out. Lets give "credit" where "credit" is due. At the time Lzgamer becan discovering the strenghts of massing reapers early game against zerg (late beta), Morrow posted on TL how useless the nitropack upgrade was as reapers were still slower than speedlings (yep you'll find the post if you look long enough). Then 1 month into release basically every foreign terran player (at a decent level) opened mass reapers game, but since Morrow won IEM (which wasn't even because of reapers, as top zergs back then had learned to counter it pretty well), he apparantly gets acknowledged for "inventing" the build (which is pretty ironic).
Damn, I stand corrected. I had no idea, since I didn't start following the pro-scene until several months after those tournaments. Same idea still stands, Reapers OP -> Reapers UP -> Reapers OP -> Reapers UP and Blizzard keeps changing their minds on what they want them to be - raiders? scouts? something that fits into a lategame comp?
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What about a building called 'dark pylon'. Cheap, takes long to build and somehow helps protoss with drop harass (faster warpin, extra dps, extra shield armor, etc.)
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On January 12 2013 04:58 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 15:06 Swords wrote:On January 11 2013 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 11 2013 02:43 shid0x wrote:
well,after playing a few games i'm not that unhappy after all.
The reaper nerf is good,now TvT isn't reaper wars anymore,it seems that blizzard wanted to give terran some overlord or phenix type of scouting unit,well with the new speed and poor damages of the reaper its done ^^
And its a good thing imo Have your expectations for Blizzard sunk so low that the easiest of fixes, a fix that impacts absolutely nothing except the unit in question, to unbreak something Blizzard themselves broke... is an accomplishment? They took WoL Reapers, broke them completely, then reverted them back to roughly WoL levels of uselessness. This took four months. That does not deserve praise. They might as well have not touched the unit whatsoever in this expansion for all the good it's done. T has a strong early game and a weak late game. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that experimenting with a tier 2-3 Reaper would be much more worthwhile than going back once again to the precarious balancing act that is a tier 1 harass unit. It's even worse than this if you think about it. In WoL beta (early release?) reapers were overpowered ( Morrow's 5 rax reaper rush). Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. HoTS starts, reapers are OP again. Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. They're repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There seems to be a clear lack of learning, which is pretty distressing, considering they'd been talking about changing the reaper in HoTS months before the beta was close to being out. Lets give "credit" where "credit" is due. At the time Lzgamer becan discovering the strenghts of massing reapers early game against zerg (late beta), Morrow posted on TL how useless the nitropack upgrade was as reapers were still slower than speedlings (yep you'll find the post if you look long enough). Then 1 month into release basically every foreign terran player (at a decent level) opened mass reapers game, but since Morrow won IEM (which wasn't even because of reapers, as top zergs back then had learned to counter it pretty well), he apparantly gets acknowledged for "inventing" the build (which is pretty ironic). Damn, I stand corrected. I had no idea, since I didn't start following the pro-scene until several months after those tournaments. Same idea still stands, Reapers OP -> Reapers UP -> Reapers OP -> Reapers UP and Blizzard keeps changing their minds on what they want them to be - raiders? scouts? something that fits into a lategame comp?
Well I don't blame you. Many people believe in this myth, and it just annoys me so goddamn much how bad their memories are.
I don't even want to say Morrow popularized it, because it already extremely well-known by almost everyone who played the game at a decent level. I guess though, many low level players weren't aware of it, and first saw it used at IEM.
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If not presently attacking anything, will reapers auto-heal inside of a bunker? I am at work so I won't be able to test this for several hours.
Edit: I need to clarify probably. Let's say a reaper is inside of a bunker on low ground and a queen is on high ground trying to kill the bunker. If the reaper isn't attacking but the bunker is 'in combat', will the reaper heal?
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On January 12 2013 05:13 smidge wrote:
If not presently attacking anything, will reapers auto-heal inside of a bunker? I am at work so I won't be able to test this for several hours.
Edit: I need to clarify probably. Let's say a reaper is inside of a bunker on low ground and a queen is on high ground trying to kill the bunker. If the reaper isn't attack but the bunker is 'in combat', will the reaper heal?
I think so, Day9 has 3 part video about new reapers, and in one of them you can see a reaper attacking a hatc from a bunker and healing himself. If im not misstaken they heal when they arent getting damage.
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On January 12 2013 05:04 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:58 Swords wrote:On January 11 2013 22:18 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 15:06 Swords wrote:On January 11 2013 07:08 pure.Wasted wrote:On January 11 2013 02:43 shid0x wrote:
well,after playing a few games i'm not that unhappy after all.
The reaper nerf is good,now TvT isn't reaper wars anymore,it seems that blizzard wanted to give terran some overlord or phenix type of scouting unit,well with the new speed and poor damages of the reaper its done ^^
And its a good thing imo Have your expectations for Blizzard sunk so low that the easiest of fixes, a fix that impacts absolutely nothing except the unit in question, to unbreak something Blizzard themselves broke... is an accomplishment? They took WoL Reapers, broke them completely, then reverted them back to roughly WoL levels of uselessness. This took four months. That does not deserve praise. They might as well have not touched the unit whatsoever in this expansion for all the good it's done. T has a strong early game and a weak late game. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that experimenting with a tier 2-3 Reaper would be much more worthwhile than going back once again to the precarious balancing act that is a tier 1 harass unit. It's even worse than this if you think about it. In WoL beta (early release?) reapers were overpowered ( Morrow's 5 rax reaper rush). Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. HoTS starts, reapers are OP again. Blizzard gradually nerfs them to nothing. They're repeating the same mistakes over and over again. There seems to be a clear lack of learning, which is pretty distressing, considering they'd been talking about changing the reaper in HoTS months before the beta was close to being out. Lets give "credit" where "credit" is due. At the time Lzgamer becan discovering the strenghts of massing reapers early game against zerg (late beta), Morrow posted on TL how useless the nitropack upgrade was as reapers were still slower than speedlings (yep you'll find the post if you look long enough). Then 1 month into release basically every foreign terran player (at a decent level) opened mass reapers game, but since Morrow won IEM (which wasn't even because of reapers, as top zergs back then had learned to counter it pretty well), he apparantly gets acknowledged for "inventing" the build (which is pretty ironic). Damn, I stand corrected. I had no idea, since I didn't start following the pro-scene until several months after those tournaments. Same idea still stands, Reapers OP -> Reapers UP -> Reapers OP -> Reapers UP and Blizzard keeps changing their minds on what they want them to be - raiders? scouts? something that fits into a lategame comp? Well I don't blame you. Many people believe in this myth, and it just annoys me so goddamn much how bad their memories are. I don't even want to say Morrow popularized it, because it already extremely well-known by almost everyone who played the game at a decent level. I guess though, many low level players weren't aware of it, and first saw it used at IEM.
This is how history gets rewritten, by the way. It's the same reason why people think that Fantasy invented mech in TvZ or that Bisu invented corsair/dt in PvZ.
If I recall correctly, IdrA had devised a counter build to the 5rax reapers that was fairly effective, but it left him open to some other builds, like the hellion/marauder build that Morrow won the tournament with. So I think you could say that the reaper's dominance played an important role in the outcome of that series and that they were deservedly nerfed a bit later, but it wasn't purely that unit, and it wasn't Morrow's build, and he didn't even use it in half the games.
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On January 12 2013 06:15 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:13 smidge wrote:
If not presently attacking anything, will reapers auto-heal inside of a bunker? I am at work so I won't be able to test this for several hours.
Edit: I need to clarify probably. Let's say a reaper is inside of a bunker on low ground and a queen is on high ground trying to kill the bunker. If the reaper isn't attack but the bunker is 'in combat', will the reaper heal? I think so, Day9 has 3 part video about new reapers, and in one of them you can see a reaper attacking a hatc from a bunker and healing himself. If im not misstaken they heal when they arent getting damage.
Right on, thanks man!
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Oddly enough, my biggest gripe is the name change to the Medivac's speed ability. Emergency Thrusters sounds far more fitting and catchier!
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EPT
