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On December 14 2012 00:36 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 23:05 Rossie wrote:On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote:
Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that? No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring. All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage. On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo.
Are you really trying to argue with this guy? You realize every argument from other people has been ignored by him, and he just continues to cry about how the whole World is against the Protoss race. He is delusional or he is trolling. Either way, judging by his comments, he will be banned soon.
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On December 14 2012 00:36 JDub wrote:
All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly.. Okay, so 2 spore crawlers. And maybe an extra queen. Still not seeing how it's any harder than tying shoelaces.
Clearly you can't have a mature discussion about balance without making the most absurd concessions to Zerg. What exactly do you want me to say? That it takes just as much skill to click on the big units to abduct them as it does to use time warps effectively? That stopping mutas is no more or less difficult than throwing down a couple of spore crawlers? That it takes just as much skill to effectively use the mothership core as it does to A-move with hydras?
No need to get the pitchforks, as there's nothing else that needs saying and I'm now done with this thread. Delude yourself that I'm delusional if you wish, but don't be surprised if this time next year BNet is a ghost town.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 14 2012 00:59 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:36 JDub wrote:On December 13 2012 23:05 Rossie wrote:On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote:
Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that? No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring. All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage. On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo. Are you really trying to argue with this guy? You realize every argument from other people has been ignored by him, and he just continues to cry about how the whole World is against the Protoss race. He is delusional or he is trolling. Either way, judging by his comments, he will be banned soon.
I thought I'd give it a shot. It was a bad idea.
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meh... they want to bring in the seeker yamato, by making the Battle cruiser take as much hits as the Raven from a Tempest.
combined armor upgrade is nice for Vikings on the ground tanking stuff. Both upgrades combined was really strong.
Widow mine change is awesome for suiciding burrow them into the opponent.
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On December 14 2012 00:57 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:57 althaz wrote:I feel like Blizzard is really losing it. This is like fifth or six patch in a row without a single change to the bunker build time. Frankly I'm disgusted and I'm not sure I can continue to watch and play this game anymore. + Show Spoiler +On a more serious note, I actually dislike the Dark Shrine change, however I think that either dark shrine shoould require a Templar archives (and be correspondingly cheaper and faster to build) or the building should be scrapped and we should go back to Broodwar with the Archives giving both Templar.
The reason for this is it allows the Toss player to get something defensive (storm/feedback/archons) and something to put pressure on their opponents at the same time (DTs) without causing catestrophic damage to their own economy/tech.
P.S. These changes might also make Zerg fun to play again, brood-infestor makes them boring.
Tempest is the new bunker, it is changed every single patch.
That's not true, actually. It's the  Widow Mine that got changed with every single beta patch so far. If you want to go with Protoss units, the Oracle also got changed every time, and had a whopping of 4 different abilities added and removed during the beta so far.
That and many more useless facts can be found at Liquipedia! Go visit Liquipedia today! 
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One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back).
And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
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On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote:One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
You're so right!
Except in SC2 protoss players can target all their HT's and spam the T button for storm and just r*pe the hydras.
In BW units were'nt as clumped and you had to target the the HT's individually.
As for now, there is nothing that beats the "Air-Toss" death ball.
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It feels like Reapers in the earlygame, and oracles in the midgame are killing off mineral lines far too easily, and neither of these problems have been addressed...
Then again, I haven't played a great deal of Hots yet, so time may prove me wrong.
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On December 14 2012 01:53 A.Alm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote:One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out You're so right! Except in SC2 protoss players can target all their HT's and spam the T button for storm and just r*pe the hydras. In BW units were'nt as clumped and you had to target the the HT's individually. As for now, there is nothing that beats the "Air-Toss" death ball.
True, but in BW Storm did more damage and had a bigger AoE. So I think it is still fair. Well it is until toss uses that Oracle area slow ability :D But it will still be more exciting then Colossi.
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tempest counter brood lord, muta counter tempest, phoenix counter muta, hydra counter phoenix, colossus/HT counter hydra. (or replace muta/phoenix with corruptor/void ray). it's like the whole late game PvZ can go anywhere now. it's.. it's beautiful...
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On December 13 2012 07:38 blade55555 wrote:
If they want mutas to be used in zvt they need to make it so widows can't hit air or it can't hit mutas at least -_-.
Yep. They can buff Mutalisk is so many ways, but where they are so limited by Widow Mines, they won't be used in ZvT. Bio and Mech players have access to Widow Mines due to the way the Terran tech tree is structured, and running a ball of Muta into a single mine means 1 dead Muta and the rest with 40 less health. Run a ball of Mutas into 3 Widow Mines, and you've lost the game.
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On December 13 2012 23:18 Rossie wrote:Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg. By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
lol wow !
thanks for giving us your opinion.
but your opinion is not a fact !
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On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote:One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out
That's true. In fact although I'm Zerg I wonder if hydra speed at Lair isn't actually too strong.
You liked 3 base roach timings? You'll love the speed hydra version.... especially when you go Stargate.
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From a design point of few most of Terrans Mech and Air Units could use another overhaul. They're either too slow , have mediocre abilities or are way too specialised. HotS will still be alot of Bioplay which would be fine if the high tech units actually added something useful which is most cases they just don't. Which is just sad.
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Ignoring balance for a second (hard to do, I know  ) it's exciting to me that Blizzard is trying to push the game away from it's current deathball state with the latest series of changes. They're boosting harass options for all races which means slow deathball armies should be able to be fought with competent harass.
Still a lot of work to do but the last 2 patches have me more excited than I was a few short weeks ago.
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On December 14 2012 02:31 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 01:41 -Archangel- wrote:One thing Rossie got right is that now Hydra is a great counter to all this toss air play. Then toss needs to make a AoE damage unit to kill hydras, which will be HT as Colossi can be killed so easy by Vipers (which zerg should build even against Air toss to maximise usage of hydras in the back). And the result is HT vs Hydras Blizzard finally decided to copy BW, they just needed to do a big round trip and couple of years of figuring it out That's true. In fact although I'm Zerg I wonder if hydra speed at Lair isn't actually too strong. You liked 3 base roach timings? You'll love the speed hydra version.... especially when you go Stargate.
It is less of a problem if the protoss relies on the MSC to defend their natural and expands behind stargate pressure. The reduced need for sentries is a huge help and lets me switch over to more robo tech quickly. Also, not having 10 or more supply tied up in sentries really helps vs hydras, since sentries are garbage in combat and made of glass.
I really feel the MSC is the best addition to protoss in HotS. Removing protoss's dependency on sentries to defend really frees up map design and should allow for more intresting...everything in the game. Having ramps at the natural that take 3 or 4 force fields to block was impossible in WoL, but can happen in HotS.
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On December 14 2012 02:46 s3rp wrote:
From a design point of few most of Terrans Mech and Air Units could use another overhaul. They're either too slow , have mediocre abilities or are way too specialised. HotS will still be alot of Bioplay which would be fine if the high tech units actually added something useful which is most cases they just don't. Which is just sad.
Mech is also really hard to play and has a number of pitfalls that will get you stupid losses. Its is amost like a Protoss trying to copy one of Liquid Hero's builds. It is possible to do, but one mistake will lose you the game. I think once the pro players dig their teeth in and work out a few brutal mech timings, it will be easier.
But you are right, Mech does not bring the fear that bio does.
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All this balance makes sense !!
Hype !! Cant wait to watch HotS Matches !!
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since this is a very small numbers tweaking patch after the last earth-shaking one...
what do you guys think are the odds we see another really big patch before release? the direction is right, but the road is still long imho...
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Going to be interesting to see how the mutalisk regen ability turns out. Would be nice it makes mutalisks more viable, but like a few others have said, I'm a bit worried ZvZ will only be muta vs muta.
I think it was a good idea to add a new color to the medivac heal after the upgrade is completed. The chosen color looks nice too.
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EPT
