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On December 13 2012 20:56 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote:
If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that.
They're good in late game, but they're of better use in early/mid game.
In the late game you'll face a lot of AoE damage, the extra healing is not going to help at all when facing 4-5 Colossus or a bunch of storms.The damage output is simply too high and too many units are hit by the AoE spells/attacks for the medivacs to keep up. I did some tests ingame and it does help somewhat against fungals (not a lot, but still an improvement).
In the early/mid game you're unlikely to face much AoE damage. In these situations, the DPS output is focused on less units meaning the medivacs will be of greater help. I've only tested it against Protoss so far, but the upgraded medivac will out heal the damage output of Zealots and Immortals on Marines (In WoL the marine dies). That's huge, especially considering that in the typical TvP early/mid game it's MMM vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal.
I'd say the medivac buff is good for late game, but it's much, much better for the Terran early/mid game. And that's not exactly the phase of the game where Terran is struggling. I play Terran, so of course i'm pretty happy with this upgrade, but I feel this medivac upgrade will be the biggest change HotS will bring for Terran players, instead of the new unit(s) adding something to the game. That's kind of sad, and very disappointing.
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On December 13 2012 22:44 Uni1987 wrote:
It's so painfully obvious that you are biased. I'm not biased. I'm simply correct that (1) Zerg is a low skill race in WoL at the moment, (2) more low skill Zerg units have been added to HotS, (3) Protoss, on the other hand, has an absurdly fragile mothership core and ridiculously easy-to-counter oracle harass, and (4) stopping mutas as Protoss is much , much harder and more uncertain than throwing down a spore crawler.
User was warned for this post
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Dont feed the troll guys...
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On December 13 2012 23:12 Insoleet wrote:
Dont feed the troll guys... Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg.
By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
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On December 13 2012 23:07 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 20:56 Arco wrote:On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote:
If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that. They're good in late game, but they're of better use in early/mid game. In the late game you'll face a lot of AoE damage, the extra healing is not going to help at all when facing 4-5 Colossus or a bunch of storms.The damage output is simply too high and too many units are hit by the AoE spells/attacks for the medivacs to keep up. I did some tests ingame and it does help somewhat against fungals (not a lot, but still an improvement). In the early/mid game you're unlikely to face much AoE damage. In these situations, the DPS output is focused on less units meaning the medivacs will be of greater help. I've only tested it against Protoss so far, but the upgraded medivac will out heal the damage output of Zealots and Immortals on Marines (In WoL the marine dies). That's huge, especially considering that in the typical TvP early/mid game it's MMM vs Zealot/Stalker/Sentry/Immortal. I'd say the medivac buff is good for late game, but it's much, much better for the Terran early/mid game. And that's not exactly the phase of the game where Terran is struggling. I play Terran, so of course i'm pretty happy with this upgrade, but I feel this medivac upgrade will be the biggest change HotS will bring for Terran players, instead of the new unit(s) adding something to the game. That's kind of sad, and very disappointing.
In most of my games, since I don't play Mech at all, the medivac buff is almost the only thing different from WoL.
The mine isn't very fun to use and the hellbat is .. well.. not a new unit really :<
I don't really like how 1rax expand gasless is not doable in TvT anymore
You just die to reapers instantly, you need to open with gas now.
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haha, i played a game with these changes without even noticing there had been i patch
i was like "wtf i thought shrine is 100/100 not 150/150, must have been mistaken"
also i went mutas once and was surprised at how fast they healed after being hit by a widow mine
which is what this is about i guess, otherwise one widow mine hit and your whole flock of mutas will be injured badly for a long time
tempest still feels too strong, actually toss air overall feels too strong. i like the oracle changes though, they make sense
i love the idea of giving mutas life leech instead of regeneration like somebody mentioned here, that would be both unique and reward active muta play
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On December 13 2012 23:18 Rossie wrote:Seriously, fuck off. It is SIMPLY TRUE that WoL is a greatly less enjoyable game thanks to the rule-following and low-skill nature of the Zerg race. It is SIMPLY TRUE that Protoss has been given a fragile-as-fuck mothership core and shitty, easy-to-counter harass unit, compared with the most insanely powerful units and buffs that have been provided to Zerg. By trying to dismiss as a troll everyone who speaks the truth about Zerg, you are going to kill this game.
Nope, it's not true and writing it in all caps won't make it any truer. The oracle is not a "shitty" unit, good protoss players are showing how good the mothership core is early game, go deep, do damage and recall. The swarm host is not "an insanely powerful unit", the viper is necessary because the infestor got hit hard by the nerf hammer.
You claim you don't even play the game, and also that "400 apm protosses are losing to low skill zergs" when in fact protoss is the race needing the less APM (that's not flaming it's how it is, different races call for different mechanics). Seriously open a replay and watch.
You have absolutely no clue on what you crying about, coupled with the fact that you don't even play you are just making yourself even more ridiculous with each reply. Do yourself a favor and stop.
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@neonfox impliying skill = apm.
i play all races @ silver (so am noob) but i notice that some races a easier in my opinion its:
zerg > protos > terran where terran is the hardest race.
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On December 13 2012 23:46 alwinuz wrote:
@neonfox impliying skill = apm.
i play all races @ silver (so am noob) but i notice that some races a easier in my opinion its:
zerg > protos > terran where terran is the hardest race.
That's exactly my point, different ways to play races means lower apm for protosses means nothing about the skill level. And we are talking about Hots here, not Wol where indeed infestor broodlord is OP.
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I'm pretty sure he'll be banned, let's stop feeding the troll please...
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On December 13 2012 08:28 wajd wrote:
Is this fixing the problem of not being able to play at all for mac users??
Unfortunately no. I am extremely disappointed that I saved up enough money to pre-order for myself to receive the beta during this holiday season only to be told that the game doesn't one on one of the platforms Blizzard "supports".
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On December 13 2012 23:39 NeonFox wrote:
Nope, it's not true and writing it in all caps won't make it any truer. The oracle is not a "shitty" unit, good protoss players are showing how good the mothership core is early game, go deep, do damage and recall. The swarm host is not "an insanely powerful unit", the viper is necessary because the infestor got hit hard by the nerf hammer. The idea of proportion is totally lost on you, isn't it?
Protoss players have to pull out all the stops to get some use out of the absurdly fragile mothership core, whereas the Zerg units have IMMEDIATE utility and OBVIOUS incorporation into strategies, and they get no more micro-intensive than clicking on the big units to abduct them.
And as for swarm hosts not being absurdly powerful...WhiteRa has said that they're sufficiently scary to force him to begin with stargate (which incidentally is hard-countered by hydras).
On December 13 2012 23:39 NeonFox wrote:You claim you don't even play the game, and also that "400 apm protosses are losing to low skill zergs" when in fact protoss is the race needing the less APM (that's not flaming it's how it is, different races call for different mechanics). Seriously open a replay and watch. No, I didn't say I don't play the game. So you can't even read. That is the intellectual level you're at. And my point was nothing to do with APM, but more generally about how hard it is for Protoss players to deal with an A-move deathball. And you might not have noticed, but Protoss APM is filled with situation-dependent multitasking and doesn't consist largely of following a queen-inject, creep-spread procedure like some algorithm from a comp-sci 101 assignment.
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On December 13 2012 21:59 K9GM3 wrote:
I really don't like the change to Tempests. Considering how little use Carriers and Battlecruisers already see against Protoss, introducing an even harder counter seems like the wrong move.
Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool.
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On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool. You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate?
The anti-Protoss autism is just unbelievable.
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Has Demilich found his way to TL??? :-)
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On December 14 2012 00:25 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool. You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate? The anti-Protoss autism is just unbelievable.
WTF! Are you trolling?
EDIT: now that i've read the last few pages i see you are on a qq crusade and have some "the world hates Protoss" paranoia, carry on.
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On December 13 2012 23:05 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 22:35 Ameisenmann wrote:
Haha there we go again with the completely baseless assumption that all terran and toss players are more skilled than zerg players. Do you seriously believe that? No. "Baseless" is not giving your reasons. I already gave mine. Stephano is nearly as good as Life and Leenock, and he simply doesn't practice. Zerg is a low skill race, and that is exactly why the game is becoming boring.
All 20 of your posts on TL have been whining about Zerg being skill-less "a-move" and Protoss being so hard to play. It's just sad, really. And saying that a single spore crawler in the mineral line counters all Protoss harass is just silly. Phoenixes are not countered by single spores in the mineral line (they still have free reign over overlords, can snipe drones while only losing shields, etc.). Moreover, 3 oracles can kill a spore crawler really easily, and then kill every drone in an entire mineral line just as fast as a flock of mutas, so if Protoss is dedicated to their harass then they can still do major damage.
On topic, I really like the changes. Completely combined mech/air upgrades was just weird, and gave Terrans fewer upgrades to research than the other races, and it just seemed unfair to have the mech --> air transition not require any additional upgrades, and 2/2 or 3/3 vikings popping out right when brood lords show up, combined with the nerfed infestors, made late-game TvZ seem a little too easy for Terran, imo.
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On December 14 2012 00:25 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 00:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Agree with this. They are becoming to massive air what Immortals are to Tanks and Ultras, HARD counter. Don't like those.
Everything else looks cool. You mean like spore crawlers are the hard counter to oracles? Or hydras are the hard counter to stargate? The anti-Protoss autism is just unbelievable.
And this is why the pros don't even bother coming to threads like this one. 
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I think Terran needs weapon + armour upgrades combined because it is so hard to counter tech switches with mech.
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On December 13 2012 11:57 althaz wrote:I feel like Blizzard is really losing it. This is like fifth or six patch in a row without a single change to the bunker build time. Frankly I'm disgusted and I'm not sure I can continue to watch and play this game anymore. + Show Spoiler +On a more serious note, I actually dislike the Dark Shrine change, however I think that either dark shrine shoould require a Templar archives (and be correspondingly cheaper and faster to build) or the building should be scrapped and we should go back to Broodwar with the Archives giving both Templar.
The reason for this is it allows the Toss player to get something defensive (storm/feedback/archons) and something to put pressure on their opponents at the same time (DTs) without causing catestrophic damage to their own economy/tech.
P.S. These changes might also make Zerg fun to play again, brood-infestor makes them boring.
Tempest is the new bunker, it is changed every single patch.
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EPT
