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On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it.
Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
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Good changes overall but I don't get why they didn't give the double upgrade thing any time to play out at all. If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran (energyless thors are a small help and the new seeker is ok but not enough). The free air upgrades was a great way to finally give Terran a truly strong late game by allowing us to get BC/X fleets much faster than in WoL.
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On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote:
Good changes overall but I don't get why they didn't give the double upgrade thing any time to play out at all. If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran (energyless thors are a small help and the new seeker is ok but not enough). The free air upgrades was a great way to finally give Terran a truly strong late game by allowing us to get BC/X fleets much faster than in WoL.
Well at least for tvz infestors are terrible now and thors a bit better vs bls, so that's a lategame buff. Having 2-2 to 3-3 vikings when 0/0 bls hit the field was ridiculous.
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This patch came much too soon after the last one. They should have given the game more time to develop around the changes.
The oracle change seems strange, it is a buff in overall dmg, but makes the unit less flexible to use, thus reducing the benefit of spending apm on its usage. I think a better choice would be to just increase the drained energy/s to 5, because this unit shouldn't be doing large amounts of total dmg, it should be used for short surgical strikes and it should be versatile in this role, when babysitted alot.
Also: Tempests do not need a buff, although this buff shouldn't do much. They should be further nerfed vs ground units (maybe by reducing their range vs ground). Lategame protoss air with templar support is already hilariously unbeatably strong.
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On December 13 2012 20:00 arcane1129 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore.
We ignore it because good terrans won't randomly spam mines around the map. If it's a big deal, simply facecheck with a speedling first, then bring an overseer and go kill it.
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On December 13 2012 20:31 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 20:00 arcane1129 wrote:On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote:
All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol.
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Have you ever even used mutas? When you're done harassing with mutas, you click them to a safe point and turn your attention to macro as they travel while keeping an eye on the minimap. Mutas ball heavily as they travel and they move much faster than an overseer. Simply moving your mutas around the map is a big risk, and that's not even factoring in the other things I mentioned in my previous post that people like you apparently ignore. We ignore it because good terrans won't randomly spam mines around the map. If it's a big deal, simply facecheck with a speedling first, then bring an overseer and go kill it.
I've been putting them in common fly routes and they're almost always worth it to have. You don't even need to kill anything or make all that many as just the threat of them dampens harass and you can always move them to shut down backstabs or give yourself a bit more map control.
Edit: Plus, mutas can no longer fly in one side of your base and harass through to the other side to safety.
The part I was talking about ignoring had nothing to do with random mines around the map.
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oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
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Wow, so in one week they decided the terran shared attack upgrades should be removed...really lame, it can never have been tested thoroughly..
And muta's with high regen is just gg.
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On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote:
oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
High level TvT is not even close to that.
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On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote:
oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
Open Marauder? Or transition into marauder? Last time I checked, marauders owned reapers pretty hard and with concussive shells in the picture...
I know a lot of people are complaining about this these days, but shouldn't a 1rax+techlab marauder + indoor CC be possible?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Corruptors now must be able to slow down enemy air units. Every unit that they supposed to counter, now got a buff with range, speed, regeneration, etc. Corruptors suck now even more -_-
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On December 13 2012 20:11 Scila wrote:
If you think about it there are no real late-game fixes in HOTS for Terran
Cadecus Reactor and Emergency Boosters are pretty good in late game. Cadecus Reactor for increased viability of Bio into lategame, and Emergency Boosters to make lategame doom drops even scarier (think TvZ vs Broodlord compositions). Even against non-Broodlord compositions, one drop can change an entire game. Emergency Boosters help with that.
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Awww yeeeaah muta health regen is so good. Blizzard is doing a good job trying to steer people away from infestor-centric play. It's just ZvZ I'm a little concerned about since it looks like you have to go muta all the way.
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On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote:
oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs
in TvT people are figuring out how to counter reaper. Nice solutions have been posted in a thread on liquipedia and other forums. But basically very fast helions or tanks can pretty much counter reaper harass.
and there is nothing about reaper in this patchnote....
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On December 13 2012 21:01 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 20:43 EpicShroom wrote:
oh... joy.... TvT so fun right now... you have to open reaper... and when both open reapers. you need more reapers.. and it will turn into a 5rax vs 5rax all tech lab reaper battle
ffs in TvT people are figuring out how to counter reaper. Nice solutions have been posted in a thread on liquipedia and other forums. But basically very fast helions or tanks can pretty much counter reaper harass. and there is nothing about reaper in this patchnote....
Countering reapers is fairly easy, that isnt the problem. The issue is countering them while maintaining an advantage compared to the player who went reapers. Sure you can make marauders for example, but then the reaper guy still has complete map control and his CC just as fast.
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On December 13 2012 16:50 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 16:46 a176 wrote:On December 13 2012 16:42 herMan wrote:On December 13 2012 16:33 WeaponX.7 wrote:
Id like point out that muta openings are going to be insanely effective against mech now because of how awful thors are against them already and now they will just heal the splash dmg much more quickly. Maybe in hots you can go mech with mines to defend, they're aoe right? I love the muta change since they make TvZ so much more exciting and they really are a core unit in the game. have mines sitting in my base and expos taking up 10, 20 supply doing nothing :\ Having 10-20 supply defending your bases lategame isn't that big of an anomaly, last time i checked.. And i'm pretty sure widow mines are more cost effective than most things defending bases.
Yeah I meant the zerg mutalisk threat window from early to midgame when terran is meching, before thors. It would be no problem to deflect mutas lategame since going mech gives you tons of minerals to use on static defense.
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It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to DTs and phoenix harassment.
Seriously...how fucking STUPID is it to give Protoss a harass unit that is hard-counterd in exactly the same way as DTs and stargate play in general?
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
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On December 13 2012 21:39 Rossie wrote:
It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to phoenix harassment and DTs.
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
so you complain as a toss player which might be the strongest race right now. and you complain about mutas although in patch 8 they got worse vs toss because 7% speedbuff was much worse than 25% rangebuff. oh and you say zerg is easy to play and dont want mutas in the game which are probably the most microrewarding unit zerg has...wow.
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On December 13 2012 21:39 Rossie wrote:
It's painfully obvious now that David Kim is out of his depth as far as balancing this game goes. Look at his changes. Rewarding Terran for spamming marines and making bio even more of a no-brainer than it was in WoL. Buffing mutas, which are already some of the most badly designed units in the game because of how hard it is for Protoss to counter them versus how much damage they can do -- and they're probably going to be overpowered anyway on the huge maps of HotS (and even Idra said so). Giving Protoss a harass unit for which the hard counter is a spore crawler or two on the mineral line -- the exact same hard counter to phoenix harassment and DTs.
The main complaint against Zerg in WoL is that it's a low skill race that just has to A-move its units. So what do we get in HoTS? More of the same -- except now they get the easiest caster in the game, whose "micro" is no more demanding than clicking on the big units, and the easiest artillery unit in the game that has the mechanics of a burrowed brood lord with further range and higher DPS.
Just compare for a second the difficulty of the PvZ counter for mutas with the ZvP counter to oracle harass. That is the game that David Kim is giving us.
It's obvious you are a protoss player just whining about your loses and that you have absolutely no idea of what is good or not for balancing this game...
The balance changes are in the right direction, they have to do some tweaks but clearly zerg is going to have somes buffs like protoss and terran got because they need them in T2.
For your information, Protoss is actually quite fine and very fun to play (you can ask progamers like white-ra or babyknight)
and NO : other races are not only played by noobs who A+click and are spamming units...
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EPT
