EPTBeta Balance Update #9 - Page 23
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LeLfe
France3160 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible. All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems. Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time. Terrible patch. | ||
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TheRooster
Sweden719 Posts
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it. Not to mention that vipers dying to mines is also problematic. It makes engaging a late game terran army almost impossible. All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems. Come on Blizzard we all know that mines won't be able to target air units by the time the game comes out. Stop wasting time. Terrible patch. Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:29 Infernal_dream wrote: Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines. and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot. | ||
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arcane1129
United States269 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:29 Infernal_dream wrote: Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines. Except it destroys muta harass because you need to constantly split mutas as you move around and they reclump as they approach a point or attack things, unless you have an overseer with you which is drastically slower than a muta. Your mutas need to attack the same thing when they harass which means they're clumped, and they need to be able to dart from target to target which is now insanely risky (as it again clumps you and you cant do it well with an overseer checking ahead). | ||
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Kal_rA
United States2925 Posts
they should just make mutas microable like before (put in the bug again? I'm sure its possible) rather than these buffs though.. Edit: lol jk its cause of mines.. havnt been following the beta at all. ignoreee me | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
I think the shrine and armory changes were expected. I'm surprised they are keeping the heal upgrade for the medivac but i guess further testing does not hurt. All in all i'm really happy with the direction the patchs have taken this week. (The concepts, not the exact numbers/balance), but I hope they innovate a bit more with HSM. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
guys guys guys guys did you know that they changed mines so that they become visible for a second before launching? you can micro mutas against mines, but you have to be on the goddamn ball to do so that said I would still like to see moving shot... | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Too much healing makes uncareful use not punished. You can basically fly over a few stalkers now and by the time you harass again you're practically healed. Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now. Anyway it's good to see they are promoting active units like muta's, they are definately more interesting to see than big ground balls. Armory nerf again is excellent, mech + air being one thing was too much of a push towards air. Ship plating and mech plating being one seems interesting as it's about as useful for mech as it is for bio mixing in hellbats, medivacs, vikings and ravens probably. Especially the time to get 3/3 mech + air now is delayed quite a bit which is essential for balancing that composition, now you have to wait about 5 minutes longer before your ultimate tech kicks in | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 13 2012 07:46 nomyx wrote: I just want Templar Archives combined with Dark Shrine. That way an archive forces the opponent to go for detection since the protoss could warp-in DTs. Since DTs can be warped-in anywhere on the map within a psi-matrix, they should be scoutable. | ||
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Avicularia
540 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:40 Markwerf wrote: Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now. And it was needed. It's not good that one spell comes to game and it's end of the mutas, and time to switch tech. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky; as long as mines shoot up no one is going to make them. The risk is just not worth it. Honestly no one is going to make mutas as long as people claim they are useless due to widow mines, and I am enjoying it greatly as terran. At least half my games against zerg I realise suddenly I would be fucked if he goes mutas, and they pretty much never do, because well, they are useless when there are widow mines, right? Generally these days I try to contain the zerg in his natural with mech army, with a bunch of widow mines as anti-air defense, and I generally try to quickly get a thor also, but that doesnt do too much if 10+ mutas come magic boxed. Send in the lings first to detonate the widow mines, kill remaining army with mutas. Sure I put down widow mines behind my army, just to try to prevent them all detonating on lings, but in the end often enough I would just be screwed against mutas. And my mineral line? Especially with new boost for muta they won't lose any muta except to widow mines, since they will always go in at full HP. Now assuming the mineral line isn't one big minefield, yes you will lose 1-2 mutas (well unless you got an overseer with you, which isnt always a good idea, but often enough it can be done without issues), but thats it, after that there will be less turrets than normally would be, and you can just continue your killing. Or you go kill some outlying buildings. Widow mines simply don't have the range to protect an entire base. I see then often complaints that a widow mine costing 75/25, kills a muta. However that isn't fair imo. To do that you had to place several widow mines, in the hope they would get in one widow mines range (and without detection). So at the very least you have that 4 widow mines, kill one muta. When they make their entire base one big minefield, then yes mutas are useless. Same is true when they fill it with missile turrets, nothing new there. Granted widow mines can later be moved, but they aren't that amazing later in the game. So if you do that you are just really behind the zerg. Don't get me wrong, they are definately useful against muta's, as backup for missile turrets, 1 or 2 in a mineral line, and if you got a really nice location you can also put one there. Now I also don't want to claim that widow mines aren't possibly in for a nerf against air. However what I do know is that the muta boosts have to be reverted if you don't give the other races better anti-muta options. Especially this regen boost is enormous if you wouldn't have widow mines to pick them off one muta at a time. They would effectively always come in with full HP. Also since vikings are suicidal for a terran against mass muta, you can keep overseers around the terran base. There is no need to take them with you, just use the nearest one to have detection. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:40 Markwerf wrote: It does reward mutamicro though. You can try to save the damaged mutas to let them heal and continue to attack with the healthier ones. Also you gain real harass capability as zerg since it is now possible to tolerate some light damage. The opponent now needs mobile anti air (or really tough stationary air defense.)Decent changes, though I don't particularely like the muta buff. Too much healing makes uncareful use not punished. You can basically fly over a few stalkers now and by the time you harass again you're practically healed. Pretty big nerf for storm and fungal as air defense as well, you better kill a few muta instead of hurt them all now. With this regeneration, the muta harass moves away from a particular timing window, mutas can now be used in the later game, too. I think this is a very good change. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:32 Decendos wrote: and it has already been discussed that sending in 1 muta for 1 mine is bad because you lose 100 gas for 25 gas. muta doesnt need speed buff nor regeneration buff. it needs mines not hitting air and maybe acceleration buff so you can micro them better --> moving shot. The regeneration however is really great for micro and vs mines I guess. It makes pulling back mutas way better and you don't have to fly all over the map to get 1 mutalisk healed by a queen. And after you get hit by a mine, the rest of your mutas can regenerate again. Also I guess, against mines you can use overseers to tank the damage and find/kill the mines. (like 1speed overseer going in, activating two mines and then a pack of mutas+another overseer flying in, cleaning up the mines and harassing) Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. + Show Spoiler + To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:46 Big J wrote: Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. [To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage Of those you mention only the widow mine is new and relevant against mutas. HSM was effectively nerfed against mutas, and HIP on thor is useless against mutas. | ||
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Rainman5419
United States92 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:46 Big J wrote: The regeneration however is really great for micro and vs mines I guess. It makes pulling back mutas way better and you don't have to fly all over the map to get 1 mutalisk healed by a queen. And after you get hit by a mine, the rest of your mutas can regenerate again. Also I guess, against mines you can use overseers to tank the damage and find/kill the mines. (like 1speed overseer going in, activating two mines and then a pack of mutas+another overseer flying in, cleaning up the mines and harassing) Not that I think that mines attacking air is needed, after they changed HSM and Thor, so Terran right now has 5(!!!!) burst damage antiair tools (Viking, Thor, HSM, Widow Mine, Yamato Canon) 4 of them being longrange. + Show Spoiler + To be honest, I think that Terran right now is completly overranged. It's like anytime you see a high tech Terran unit, it already does damage to you. It forces any combat to be a 1a overrun, as withdrawing or microing in sightrange means a ton of free damage. yeah you can micro like that vs mines but: - even in your example (which is PERFECT play from the Z which is unrealistic in real life even on pro level) you trade 50 gas for 50 gas. - and the worst of all: this only works on air space where you can park overseer. on ground space your mutas have to fly in overseerspeed which completely negates their strength to hop from one base to another because on a lot of maps you have to fly over ground to do that. so you now have overseerspeed mutas to harrass. mutas need to be fast, with faster acceleration and a glass cannon. i have the feeling they go in the completely other direction right now. they make the muta slow (overseerspeedslow above ground) but less of a glass cannon. they balance SO many things around widow mine hitting air and cloak (they realized the last one) instead of just fixing the mine. i said it since day 1: why does the mine need to hit air and cloak? that is 100% the role of turrets which are minerals only btw and mech has overmints anyway while marine compositions never had a problem vs mutas. so mines completely overlapped with the role of turrets...now they only overlap 50% which is still very bad and completely unneeded. they could reverse spore change, muta speedbuff, phoenix range change, MsC detection change and make mutas, DTs, banshees, dropplay from any race much more viable without the need to fix those units itself. and of course with the mine not hitting air and cloaked it finally can be 1 or even 0,5 supply without being OP. | ||
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:20 MilesTeg wrote: Wow what a disappointing patch, I didn't see that coming. No need to give Mutas something gimmicky... All this patch does is damage ZvZ a bit, and adding another funky ability as a band aid over more fundamental problems. A passive regen boost is not "gimmicky" or "funky". | ||
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