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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
Pre burrow upgrade you can check the area with ao overseer and keep a close eye for reburrowing. You can even drop changelings to detonate them so you can pick them off with your muta (or just detonate them then harass and ignore the mine). Yes a there is risk vs reward, but a Terran with defensive mines will more likely have nothing else in position, and have less static defense. So the potential for high skill ceiling damaging harass is there. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:00 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Nothing hurts my feelings more than seeing my 10-20 mutas die to 1-2 widow mines at random places :p Maybe those 5 other widow mines hurt your feelings more? Since there is absolutely no way on earth that can happen. It is impossible, even if you have them maxed clumped up and fly directly into them it can't happen. Also I am pretty sure also mutas can pick off detected widow mines before they fire. And as said before, you don't need to take an overseer with you all the time, just keep them hanging around bases and use them when your mutas arrive. | ||
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imPermanenCe
Netherlands595 Posts
On December 13 2012 07:41 Plansix wrote: Yay! My day is made, for I hate them so when they fry my zealots. But isn't the colossus consider to be more ground than air? So what weapon will the tempest fire on them? If it really rapes colossus this hard, it will be bad for the game. We'll now have tempest wars instead of colossus war. If tempest didn't hard counter colossus we could have a mix of both collossus and tempest. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:29 Infernal_dream wrote: Then dont stack all of your mutas together and a move them. This has already been discussed. They are fucking mines. You don't walk your amy into mines. That's called being stupid. Just like terran stims a few marines and runs them forward you can run a muta forward to see if there's any mines. Saying something completely idiotic and calling someone stupid at the same time... great post. The trade-off is just ridiculously bad. Just the fact that you risk pretty much losing the game instantly means it is not exactly a good decision to harass. And even if you play perfectly you still usually lose more than you win. If someone makes a muta in ZvT right now he's an idiot, or not being serious. Blizzard can add as many stupid stuff as they want, I don't know maybe make them shoot a pink lazer next time, it still won't change the fact that they're a really bad tech choice. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:07 MilesTeg wrote: Saying something completely idiotic and calling someone stupid at the same time... great post. The trade-off is just ridiculously bad. Just the fact that you risk pretty much losing the game instantly means it is not exactly a good decision to harass. And even if you play perfectly you still usually lose more than you win. If someone makes a muta in ZvT right now he's an idiot, or not being serious. Blizzard can add as many stupid stuff as they want, I don't know maybe make them shoot a pink lazer next time, it still won't change the fact that they're a really bad tech choice. And these people make sure I can gimp my air defense since zerg don't make mutas anyway :D | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
they should remove single target damage anyway because it is 100% luckbased which is stupid and i honestly dont know why no one seems to care that a luckbased thing is in the strategy game starcraft!? | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:11 Decendos wrote: if they really want to keep mines hitting air then they should remove the single target damage. mines would still be a great addition beneath turrets but the zerg wouldnt always lose 100 gas for 25 gas and therefore never again playing mutas. I don't think removing single target damage is a bad idea. However, saying they lose 100 gas for 25 gas is just stupid. In order to have one widow mine fire you probably have had at least 4 burrowed in different spots, so that is 100 gas for 100 gas + more minerals. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
actually i always did . Anyway i like the changes tbh the terran nerf to armory im not to sure about . | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 13 2012 18:49 Sissors wrote: Of those you mention only the widow mine is new and relevant against mutas. HSM was effectively nerfed against mutas, and HIP on thor is useless against mutas. Wasn't meant to talk about mutalisks with that, just generally whether Widow Mine shooting air is needed. Without the Thor change, I would very well say so - else opening Mech could be too hard against Stargate openings, as there is nothing that can buy you time to transition into Vikings and the overall damage output will just be extremly low. With a strong Thor, that can at least be a useful damage support vs Void Rays, Carriers and Tempests I would guess that Mech has a greater chance. (still needs Vikings, which is a good thing, but you don't need to go Tanks into mass vikings, like in WoL) But yeah, I dislike units that shoot nearly as far as their opponents can see. It makes positioning overly hard and the game being balanced around getting a "perfect overrun", instead of winning a well-controlled engagement. If they keep it like that, I think that Z needs something that guarantees vision of an army (like scan and revelation for T/P), else facing all of those range 9-15 lategame units of P/T might result too much in balancing for blind army clashes. Maybe some changeling/overseer tweaks. | ||
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:13 Sissors wrote: I don't think removing single target damage is a bad idea. However, saying they lose 100 gas for 25 gas is just stupid. In order to have one widow mine fire you probably have had at least 4 burrowed in different spots, so that is 100 gas for 100 gas + more minerals. thats a good and fair point. but ling bling mutaplay got nerfed so hard in ZvT with: mines hitting air, medivac speed buff, medivac healing buff, hellbat raping lings and being bio that even if you trade even with mines the other mentioned buffs in combination with mines hitting air made ling bling muta play a lot worse than in WoL (where it was in a perfect state although even there mass muta was figured out and it was more like 10-15 mutas on pro level). ling bling muta is almost completely the same as in WoL but their counters got SO MUCH better that even without mines hitting air i am curious if mutas would be/will be played. | ||
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TheRooster
Sweden719 Posts
On December 13 2012 11:53 wcr.4fun wrote: I would buy hots if: - removed thor - added goliath (possibly with really small splash to air, reason see below) - add air stacking (not as an ability obvious, but by using an overlord or larvae added to your group or via another method) - add moving shot to game - revert passive regeneration on mutalisk - remove swarm host, make the lurker somehow work (-remove collussus? Add other more interesting and skill requiring unit) - remove widow mine - add spider mine to reaper/hellion/... whatever fits best - change fungal to plague - change consume from absorbing builing heatlth to destroying a unit (bw version) - change blinding cloud to dark swarm (toned down perhaps, percentage based damage reduction? like 80 percent or something) - Make ultralisks smaller - change general pathing of units to allow better control (see bw) and destroy deathball - require less workers per base for saturation meaning less income per base and thus allowing more options (low econ games vs high econ games) - significantly tone down spawn larvae/mule and chronoboost - give cooldown advantage to gateways versus warp gates I think this is everything. Obviously balance any issues which may arise through these changes Sooooo you would buy Hots if it was brood war? | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
Btw do widow mines fire when under blinding cloud? On bases next to inaccessible terrain I could see it useful to cast blinding cloud on an expansion before mutas move in, at least takes care of turrets. (Of course you cant keep vipers with your mutas all the time). Personally I still see a role for the muta, but i guess it wont be as important as in the traditional ling/bling/muta composition. However as anti-drop and light harrasment they still work. Just snipe a supply depot and go back, deny an expansion, etc. If sniping a supply depot makes you lose a muta to widow mines, he probably now has invested lots to cover his entire base in widow mines: win for you. Honestly right now I consider roach, hydra, viper composition as terran to be really enjoyable both to play against, and to watch in streams. It really forces you to think about your positioning, and you dont have the stupid infestor stuff. Personally a bit afraid that the swarmhost isn't as enjoyable. Not balance wise, but simply because from my (limitted) experience when a zerg starts making swarm hosts, I add in more siege tanks to compensate, and the end result is zerg streaming free units into tank lines, without anything actually happening. They dont do damage since I got then enough siege tanks, but it just gets boring, generally the result is a race who can make siege units faster, him swarm hosts or me siege tanks. I think I won it everytime for now, so it really isn't that I complain because I lose from them, I just dont consider it fun. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. | ||
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OkStyX
Canada1199 Posts
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
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TCVSMKVSDH
China3 Posts
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dargul
Russian Federation125 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:42 iKill wrote: All this QQ about mines almost makes me wanna switch to Z just so I can abuse mutas as the only player on ladder to use them, lol. You can micro mutas vs mines. The mine goes visible shortly before detonating, giving you a short timespan to move away from it. You just have to be on the ball about it. Even without it mines can't hold mutaharass. How many mines can terran leave on each base? 2-3? It's only 2-3 dead mutas if magic boxing. 2-3 mines is like 1 thor - soft counter yes, but skilled zerg can easily overcome such defence with muta. And now with regen it will be easy even without skill. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:48 TCVSMKVSDH wrote: i guess protoss will eventually only go air in pvz/pvp in macro game... Eh, air is already my lategame transition vs Mech T. | ||
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