EPT[Q] Reason to build Swarm Hosts now? - Page 8
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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Schroedinger
Germany80 Posts
Vipers are a huge addition for your army ,even if they are T3 units they are totally worth their price and their tech. There is no real reason to build swarm hosts ,because they will only delay your tech without adding anything to your composition. There might be some time windows that you can abuse with the swarm host, especially in ZvP but yeah thats it. The only solution for the swarm host is to remove it from the game. | ||
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ScoobySnacks
United States19 Posts
I started a thread highlighting some of the design flaws of the Swarm Host over at Battle.net, and I think some people here may find it relevant to this discussion. The OP is still a major work in progress and there is a lot I will be adding to it in the coming days, but I feel it's the most comprehensive post on the topic right now. I'm not sure if its worthy of a new thread here, as I know TL moderation is pretty strict, so I'll just post the link: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7350535414?page=1 If this is thread-worthy, someone please let me know and I'll start a new thread on it here. | ||
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Archen
United States79 Posts
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
The problem is that they are a slow moving, low HP unit. Blizzard doesn't want to give them too much HP because then you get into the BL problem: once they reach critical mass, the spawned units are just too numerous to deal with. However, the low HP and slow movement means that Colossi or Tanks can kill entire waves of Locusts without taking a single hit. In order to compensate for this vulnerability Blizzard has given Locusts an extremely high damage attack, with enough range that they can rapidly focus-fire down melee units like Zealots. That is a mistake IMO. I think Locusts would be much more interesting if they were a melee unit with two different stances: Defensive Crouch: Decreases all damage taken by 60%. Automatically active any time the Locust is not Frenzied. Melee Attack: 10 (+1) damage, CD 0.86, 11.6 DPS (compare this to 8.5 DPS for an Adrenaling). The Locust becomes Frenzied for 3 seconds after each melee attack. Frenzy: Grants +50% movement speed and immunity to snare, stun and mind control effects. The combination of these two abilities would make it much harder to kill Locusts before they reach their target, but would also greatly decrease their damage output (because they are melee) and allow melee units to stand a chance against them. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:22 ScoobySnacks wrote: Hi TL posters, I started a thread highlighting some of the design flaws of the Swarm Host over at Battle.net, and I think some people here may find it relevant to this discussion. The OP is still a major work in progress and there is a lot I will be adding to it in the coming days, but I feel it's the most comprehensive post on the topic right now. I'm not sure if its worthy of a new thread here, as I know TL moderation is pretty strict, so I'll just post the link: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7350535414?page=1 If this is thread-worthy, someone please let me know and I'll start a new thread on it here. This is actually a fantastic thread, thank you. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
The timing window when you can use them is pretty small, in fact unless you rush to them I'm not sure there is a timing at all. If pure roach/SH worked I think the unit could work and be fun, adding a solid, non-cheesy aggression for people with good multitasking. But you do that... a single banshee or mothership core will ruin your day. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 15 2012 16:59 Virid wrote: This is actually a fantastic thread, thank you. wow. OP please link to this thread. most detailed and unbiased thread i ever saw on bnet  | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On December 15 2012 10:22 ScoobySnacks wrote: Hi TL posters, I started a thread highlighting some of the design flaws of the Swarm Host over at Battle.net, and I think some people here may find it relevant to this discussion. The OP is still a major work in progress and there is a lot I will be adding to it in the coming days, but I feel it's the most comprehensive post on the topic right now. I'm not sure if its worthy of a new thread here, as I know TL moderation is pretty strict, so I'll just post the link: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7350535414?page=1 If this is thread-worthy, someone please let me know and I'll start a new thread on it here. Very very nice post. I agree with everything, even though I love Swarm Hosts. I was thinking about two solutions, and of course, I don't know will they work. First would be to increase the size of the Swarm Hosts, like to the size of the current Thor or something like that, make them massive, increase the cost to or 300/200/4(or even 6 supply), and make them spawn 4 Locusts at once, and have an upgrade that will allow them to spawn 2 more Locusts. Remove the current enduring Locusts upgrade, and let them last 20 seconds with 25 seconds spawn cooldown. Of course, increase the Health of the Swarm Hosts to the 200 for example and you can maybe even nerf the Locusts. That way, we will avoid critical mass of the Swarm Hosts, where players only mass them, and we can see like 3-4 Swarm Hosts being viable in many army compositions. And you won't see masses of them, since you will invest A LOT into them, and when enemy has good AoE units like 3+ Colossi or 6+ Siege Tanks, no matter how many Locusts you got, they will become useless. And second solution would be something that I was thinking for few months already, and that you have suggested in your battle.net thread, and that is Locusts being able to move underground and popping up when they reach the enemy. Of course, you will have to change the mechanic a little bit, making Locusts more tanky and maybe even making them melee units, but don't know will that work in the regard for stopping massing Swarm Hosts and them being viable in small numbers. I would really like something like my first solution, them being moving hatcheries. Well, kind of. :D EDIT: And you can definitely open this thread here, it will get huge support. I just hope that it won't transform into "give me back Lurker!" thread... | ||
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porygon361
81 Posts
Swarmhost - Revert the Swarmhost HP buff - +Speed Locust - Expires in 20 sec, but moves quicker and also respawns in 20 sec - Has a larger hitbox than a normal Locust - Has a HP increase from 75(?) to 90 The Swarmhost should be given additional speed to encourage reposition micro. Most of the changes are on the Locust. Basically, this new Locust is a bigger, fatter version of the other one. This is to solve what I call the Zergling syndrome. For example, a Zergling loses to a Marine, but 2 Zerglings beat a Marine. The point here is that Zerglings are effective only in huge numbers (in a major battle), and that is the same problem with the current Locust. However, with the proposed Locust change, Locust grow less effective as the numbers grow bigger. This is because the Locust now has a larger hitbox, meaning less Locusts will be attacking the opponent's units at a time (especially in chokes) and decreasing the total damage output of mass Locust. The Locusts' extremely limited time also means that most of the Locusts would time out before they even get a shot into the enemy. Now mass Swarmhosts will not be immediately game ending. But there's more. Now that the Swarmhost is not as good in the army, let's cover it's harrassment/contain aspect. The faster-spawning Locusts will put additional pressure on the opponent, and makes sure the opponent goes out to deal with it, lest take uneccesary damage and losses from the Locusts (which is what the Swarmhost is meant to do). "But less time for the Locust means less distance covered! That would be totally unsafe for the Swarmhost as it has to go dangerously close to the opponent's base." This problem is solved with the increased speed of the Locust. More micro and decision-making has to be made when using these short-lived Locusts, and Locust stutter-step will come into play. Increased Locust health will ensure that they survive long enough to deal enough damage or kill a unit before they time out. These changes sould correct the Swarmhost in a nice way and make it into a harrassment/containment unit it was meant to be. If you have anything to add about these ideas, I would like you to kindly lay them out on the table. P.S I have written this passage out from my phone, so I may have skipped some explanation. Please bear with me. Also, many of the counters stated in the OP aren't actually counters (Reapers, wtf?). The counters section should factor in the other units that would be used with the Swarmhost instead of the Swarmhost by itself. | ||
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
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ScoobySnacks
United States19 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Also, many of the counters stated in the OP aren't actually counters (Reapers, wtf?). The counters section should factor in the other units that would be used with the Swarmhost instead of the Swarmhost by itself. Why you can't go to the unit tester and see, that reapers are actually working against mass waves of locusts. They heal themselfs, they are fast (can quickly reach swarm host fields and kill them), they can kite locusts, and zerg mostly not builds roaches with swarm hosts. The game isn't even out now and the playerbase is still quite small. Just because you don't know how and when to utilize swarm hosts, it doesn't mean they should be buffed. If they're really not that good, whats wrong with posting questions and discussing it? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 15 2012 19:31 MilesTeg wrote: I think one of the problems is that you have to bring in anti-air to make them work. That delays any SH attack by a lot, you either need hydras, or a Nydus worm, but in any case you need at least an additional 300 gas. The timing window when you can use them is pretty small, in fact unless you rush to them I'm not sure there is a timing at all. If pure roach/SH worked I think the unit could work and be fun, adding a solid, non-cheesy aggression for people with good multitasking. But you do that... a single banshee or mothership core will ruin your day. Could this problem be allivieated if they put the swarmhosts in the hydralisk den rather than the Infestor pit? I actually think it's quite silly how getting SH lets you get up to hive straight away as all it seems to be doing is adding another delaying tactic to get to hive rather than anything agressive. | ||
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porygon361
81 Posts
On December 16 2012 00:19 Existor wrote: Why you can't go to the unit tester and see, that reapers are actually working against mass waves of locusts. They heal themselfs, they are fast (can quickly reach swarm host fields and kill them), they can kite locusts, and zerg mostly not builds roaches with swarm hosts. Your are right, mass Reaper does counter mass Swarmhost, cause Reapers can simply kite their way to victory. However, I believe that Swarmhost are meant to be "Support siege units" (according to Blizzard), and should at least be accompanied by some Zerglings (or Roaches). | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/edKbf.png) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388327 | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
Vs Protoss, I feel like most of their answer is via air, so maybe putting down creep with overlords with spores would be a great idea for hard contains, but it seems kind of costly to hold a position, you have to really commit. :/ | ||
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ssxsilver
United States4409 Posts
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On December 15 2012 22:52 porygon361 wrote: I believe that Swarmhosts need the following changes to be a unit good in small numbers but bad in big numbers. Swarmhost - Revert the Swarmhost HP buff - +Speed Locust - Expires in 20 sec, but moves quicker and also respawns in 20 sec - Has a larger hitbox than a normal Locust - Has a HP increase from 75(?) to 90 The Swarmhost should be given additional speed to encourage reposition micro. Most of the changes are on the Locust. Basically, this new Locust is a bigger, fatter version of the other one. This is to solve what I call the Zergling syndrome. For example, a Zergling loses to a Marine, but 2 Zerglings beat a Marine. The point here is that Zerglings are effective only in huge numbers (in a major battle), and that is the same problem with the current Locust. However, with the proposed Locust change, Locust grow less effective as the numbers grow bigger. This is because the Locust now has a larger hitbox, meaning less Locusts will be attacking the opponent's units at a time (especially in chokes) and decreasing the total damage output of mass Locust. The Locusts' extremely limited time also means that most of the Locusts would time out before they even get a shot into the enemy. Now mass Swarmhosts will not be immediately game ending. But there's more. Now that the Swarmhost is not as good in the army, let's cover it's harrassment/contain aspect. The faster-spawning Locusts will put additional pressure on the opponent, and makes sure the opponent goes out to deal with it, lest take uneccesary damage and losses from the Locusts (which is what the Swarmhost is meant to do). "But less time for the Locust means less distance covered! That would be totally unsafe for the Swarmhost as it has to go dangerously close to the opponent's base." This problem is solved with the increased speed of the Locust. More micro and decision-making has to be made when using these short-lived Locusts, and Locust stutter-step will come into play. Increased Locust health will ensure that they survive long enough to deal enough damage or kill a unit before they time out. These changes sould correct the Swarmhost in a nice way and make it into a harrassment/containment unit it was meant to be. If you have anything to add about these ideas, I would like you to kindly lay them out on the table. P.S I have written this passage out from my phone, so I may have skipped some explanation. Please bear with me. Also, many of the counters stated in the OP aren't actually counters (Reapers, wtf?). The counters section should factor in the other units that would be used with the Swarmhost instead of the Swarmhost by itself. Swarm hosts should be cheaper then, because I'd much rather put my money into vipers than some harassment that doesnt sound like it will do much. | ||
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