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[Q] Reason to build Swarm Hosts now? - Page 9

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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kaokentake
Profile Joined July 2012
383 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-15 22:06:23
December 15 2012 22:05 GMT
#161
I just thought of the perfect way to fix swarmhosts


give swarmhosts a hive upgrade, 100/100 that makes locusts fly and move a bit faster. now many of the weaknesses of locusts are removed, but they can still be countered very well (make them light armor so thors can aoe them, and archons/storm can still splash them)

also locusts should attack ground and air obviously
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
December 15 2012 22:40 GMT
#162
them light armor so thors can aoe them

They are already light
BaDMannerS
Profile Joined July 2012
Bulgaria57 Posts
January 12 2013 18:42 GMT
#163
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
January 12 2013 18:46 GMT
#164
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too
FS_SlimJim
Profile Joined September 2012
29 Posts
January 12 2013 19:19 GMT
#165
Actually, taking a fast expo, 18 gas, then ling speed, then lair soon as you have 100 gas again into swarm host with ling support into 3rd works well in ZvP now. I know that was a cluster__ of a sentence, but it's true if toss doesn't go straight air since MSC no longer has detect.
BaDMannerS
Profile Joined July 2012
Bulgaria57 Posts
January 12 2013 20:52 GMT
#166
On January 13 2013 03:46 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too

Well, I haven't played 1v1 with T, but with P it is nearly impossible if the zerg manages to mass them. Switch to airtoss is hard to be done in small time window. If the zerg reacts with hydras the counter is lost cause.
TheSwagger
Profile Joined June 2012
United States92 Posts
January 12 2013 23:27 GMT
#167
I think people are overlooking the SH's plausible efficiency by having so many free units. I think OP's logic is a little zerg sided. Swarmhosts syngergized with other units as other people have recommended have proven to be quite difficult to deal with at times. They do a great job of seiging.
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-13 12:30:11
January 13 2013 12:29 GMT
#168
On January 13 2013 03:46 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too


Questions like this clearly demonstrates that (given your game understanding) the swarm hosts is if properly used - imbalanced. You simply aren't going to outdrop a zerg or get off great widow mine explosions if the zerg knows what he is doing (which would imply having a couple of hydras along with the swarm hosts).

There are no viable (please reflect a bit upon what viable means before you respond) counter to mass swarm hosts/hydra, its a terribly designed unit, and this whole pressure thing should be removed. Why the hell should an opponent be punished for being a bit behind? And the thing is; he is not going die instantly --> he is goanna feel the spoon death which is upper upper boring and pointless.

Instead a player being behind should lose the game due to not having enogh units to deal with the multitasking of the zerg. But if he has great mechanics and outplays the zerg he can get back into the game.

The correct solution is to make the swarm hosts a purely defensive oriented unit (simila to the role of the siege tanks). "pressure-units" will never work, and the fact that Blizzard (apparently) hasn't realized this yet makes me very sad.

Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-13 13:53:57
January 13 2013 12:36 GMT
#169
Blizzards response:

When it comes to Swarm Host, we feel that this is a unit is still relatively new and has yet to be stretched strategically in the ways we would expect. Any time such is the case, we don't like to consider strong changes as it only makes it harder for players to pin down the intention of the unit and unique strategies accessible from its design. As a small example, it seems that a lot of players will place their Swarm Host at the front line of an engagement and simply leave it there while it slowly volleys waves of locusts at the opponent. We have yet to see solid strategies around making more mobile use of the unit, unburrowing and changing locations between volleys. There is a significant cool-down on the locust volley, so maybe there's something there for consideration.


Translation: Due to our terrible design of the swarm hosts, people are using the unit in a very boring way. As they aren't using it the way we intended we won't make any attempt to fix the design flaws.

Some great logic from the guys behind the warhound, entomb, collosus, the roach, vortex, fungal growth, the useless scout reaper, the 5 rax reaper, the useless WOL reaper, the OP tvt reaper, turtleoriented play and the deathball.

EDIT: I forgot the cloud against mech viper, Void rays, mules, mech TvP and the abudct abililty which can't be remicro'ed against it.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
January 13 2013 15:21 GMT
#170
On January 13 2013 21:29 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2013 03:46 Existor wrote:
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too


Questions like this clearly demonstrates that (given your game understanding) the swarm hosts is if properly used - imbalanced. You simply aren't going to outdrop a zerg or get off great widow mine explosions if the zerg knows what he is doing (which would imply having a couple of hydras along with the swarm hosts).
.


And tanks + mines? How exactly do a couple hydras do then with your plan to have a couple hydras take out every mine without getting hit?
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Breach_hu
Profile Joined August 2009
Hungary2431 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-13 16:12:48
January 13 2013 16:11 GMT
#171
On January 13 2013 03:46 Existor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too


Please drop those ridicolous sentences like "2 widows can clear the half of the locusts" , they are flat out lies.
If the Z uses SH's good, they you cant touch the Zerg with mech. I had a game where 10 SH tanked around 20tanks for like 2-3 minutes on a ramp.
Give thanks and praise!
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
January 13 2013 16:27 GMT
#172
On January 14 2013 00:21 Zelniq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 13 2013 21:29 Hider wrote:
On January 13 2013 03:46 Existor wrote:
On January 13 2013 03:42 BaDMannerS wrote:
You are wasting your time to try to counter such imbalanced unit, guys. I see good counters here, but none of them includes dealing with the damn huge mass of simultaneous spawn form a huge distance. How the hell are we supposed to reach the imbacusts?

Outdrop him? 2 widows can clear half of the locusts. Sieges can do that too


Questions like this clearly demonstrates that (given your game understanding) the swarm hosts is if properly used - imbalanced. You simply aren't going to outdrop a zerg or get off great widow mine explosions if the zerg knows what he is doing (which would imply having a couple of hydras along with the swarm hosts).
.


And tanks + mines? How exactly do a couple hydras do then with your plan to have a couple hydras take out every mine without getting hit?


How do you attack into a mass swarm hosts/hydra composition (which is turtling right outside your base) with mines and tanks? The only scenarios where mines can work is when the zerg hasn't got a critical mass of swarm hosts yet and when he has left them unprotected. Mines can never directly engage into an army of 10+ SH's.

Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
January 13 2013 16:30 GMT
#173
On December 08 2012 04:45 Existor wrote:
Just the question, Terrans got more options to kill Swarm Hosts:

- Reapers as anti-light against locusts and quick infantry, can be healed
- Hellbats can be healed, anti-light too
- Siege Tanks already do that
- Raven can easily snipe Swarm Hosts
- widow mine drops to swarm host fields with 1 second burrow can kill all hosts in some second. Just drop widow mines, do their work and load back to medivac and quickly fly away!
- widow mine counters all or half locusts, because they can target temporary units
- banshees now are more effective against swarm hosts, because they will have some weapon upgrades from mech army

They should buff locust speed to 2.25 and/or buff their health, or make 3 locust spawning at time, because right now Swarm Hosts are useless.

Against Protoss zergs have problems too:

- timewarp slows locusts a lot, with time warp locusts move slow like Queens offcreep
- Oracles with anti-light lazer can kill many locusts just for energy cost
- M-Core provides long-range detector
- Void Rays can quickly kill all locusts and then more quickly with charged boost kill SHosts
- you can normally recall your forces if you're atacked by many locusts
- FF works well against locusts
- tempests can snipe swarm hosts, not that quickly, but it's works a bit
- swarm host player is very immobile against prizm drops and oracle harasses

Also recommend you to view good thread about Swarm Host design flaw
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7350535414?page=1

if your trading locusts for energy then your winning the fight
Orzabal
Profile Joined December 2009
France287 Posts
January 13 2013 16:38 GMT
#174
Hi, I am only play 2v2 on HotS at Master lvl.

Almost all game I go for roach/hydra mix into Viper. I never loose vs a zerg who go Swarm Host (or muta of course).
I think the unit is not well design because you cant use it unless you all in with it.

Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-13 16:40:21
January 13 2013 16:39 GMT
#175
On January 14 2013 01:38 Orzabal wrote:
Hi, I am only play 2v2 on HotS at Master lvl.

Almost all game I go for roach/hydra mix into Viper. I never loose vs a zerg who go Swarm Host (or muta of course).
I think the unit is not well design because you cant use it unless you all in with it.


swarm hosts need tog et figured out still right now noone knows how to really use them effectively and unit stats havent settles at all

plus your playing 2v2
Orzabal
Profile Joined December 2009
France287 Posts
January 13 2013 16:45 GMT
#176
On January 14 2013 01:39 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2013 01:38 Orzabal wrote:
Hi, I am only play 2v2 on HotS at Master lvl.

Almost all game I go for roach/hydra mix into Viper. I never loose vs a zerg who go Swarm Host (or muta of course).
I think the unit is not well design because you cant use it unless you all in with it.


swarm hosts need tog et figured out still right now noone knows how to really use them effectively and unit stats havent settles at all

plus your playing 2v2


What do you mean by Tog ?

1v1 GM zerg dont use Swarm host. They keep with Hydra/roach/Viper. Sometime Muta vs terran
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
January 13 2013 16:48 GMT
#177
On January 14 2013 01:45 Orzabal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2013 01:39 Forikorder wrote:
On January 14 2013 01:38 Orzabal wrote:
Hi, I am only play 2v2 on HotS at Master lvl.

Almost all game I go for roach/hydra mix into Viper. I never loose vs a zerg who go Swarm Host (or muta of course).
I think the unit is not well design because you cant use it unless you all in with it.


swarm hosts need tog et figured out still right now noone knows how to really use them effectively and unit stats havent settles at all

plus your playing 2v2


What do you mean by Tog ?

1v1 GM zerg dont use Swarm host. They keep with Hydra/roach/Viper. Sometime Muta vs terran

because those styles are simple and easy to understand

noone has (mainly because theres not been enough time) figured out how to use swarm hosts, once HoTS goes live and the Korean think tank looks at swarm hosts expect to see them used more
Orzabal
Profile Joined December 2009
France287 Posts
January 13 2013 20:56 GMT
#178
On January 14 2013 01:48 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 14 2013 01:45 Orzabal wrote:
On January 14 2013 01:39 Forikorder wrote:
On January 14 2013 01:38 Orzabal wrote:
Hi, I am only play 2v2 on HotS at Master lvl.

Almost all game I go for roach/hydra mix into Viper. I never loose vs a zerg who go Swarm Host (or muta of course).
I think the unit is not well design because you cant use it unless you all in with it.


swarm hosts need tog et figured out still right now noone knows how to really use them effectively and unit stats havent settles at all

plus your playing 2v2


What do you mean by Tog ?

1v1 GM zerg dont use Swarm host. They keep with Hydra/roach/Viper. Sometime Muta vs terran

because those styles are simple and easy to understand

noone has (mainly because theres not been enough time) figured out how to use swarm hosts, once HoTS goes live and the Korean think tank looks at swarm hosts expect to see them used more



Why do you assume swarm host is a good unit and nobody figured out how to use them ?
You could say that if you were playing at very high lvl and be very successfull with them.



Parodoxx
Profile Joined May 2010
United States549 Posts
January 13 2013 21:09 GMT
#179
I am only playing at a low masters level atm but I must say I have never lost a game that I made swarm host in, that being said they are a very niche unit.

Swarm host cost a lot are not that great in low numbers and are niche but when you can get the mass you need its very very strong. I get swarm host when ever I am facing

- Thor based mech army's
- Protoss is doing a roboless all-in
- I need to break a contain on myself/ contain others (works best on terran)
- Close a game that is passive
- Protoss has reached their mass air storm comp. (swarm host bait storms so mass corrupter can clean up air)
- Spawned close by ground against protoss on specific maps

Best of luck Zerg OP ^^
BlackPanther
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States872 Posts
January 13 2013 21:26 GMT
#180
I think Swarm hosts are a solid (albeit annoying to deal with) mid-game siege unit. With good hydra ling support, they can be extremely effective at maintaining a contain.
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