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Russian Federation4295 Posts
Just the question, Terrans got more options to kill Swarm Hosts:
- Reapers as anti-light against locusts and quick infantry, can be healed
- Hellbats can be healed, anti-light too
- Siege Tanks already do that
- Raven can easily snipe Swarm Hosts
- widow mine drops to swarm host fields with 1 second burrow can kill all hosts in some second. Just drop widow mines, do their work and load back to medivac and quickly fly away!
- widow mine counters all or half locusts, because they can target temporary units
- banshees now are more effective against swarm hosts, because they will have some weapon upgrades from mech army
They should buff locust speed to 2.25 and/or buff their health, or make 3 locust spawning at time, because right now Swarm Hosts are useless.
Against Protoss zergs have problems too:
- timewarp slows locusts a lot, with time warp locusts move slow like Queens offcreep
- Oracles with anti-light lazer can kill many locusts just for energy cost
- M-Core provides long-range detector
- Void Rays can quickly kill all locusts and then more quickly with charged boost kill SHosts
- you can normally recall your forces if you're atacked by many locusts
- FF works well against locusts
- tempests can snipe swarm hosts, not that quickly, but it's works a bit
- swarm host player is very immobile against prizm drops and oracle harasses
Also recommend you to view good thread about Swarm Host design flaw
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7350535414?page=1
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to add to your list:
+ timewarp makes them as "fast" as a queen offcreep which makes the oracle (and every other unit) even better at killing locusts without taking damage
+ MMM can just a-move them
+ once AoE is out the huge investment is hardcountered
+ they take 3 supply and are gas and mineral heavy
basically most of zerg T2 is not viable right now imo. some comps are viable if you do a hive rush and add viper: roach hydra viper corruptor vs mech for example works.
really hope they give huge buffs to T2 zerg and move infestor to hive and if viper comps get too strong viper to hive + spire or even greater spire. would love to see zerg have an army that is only softcountered by the T and P army and infestor/viper are supporters that help those armies to get on equal footing again and then slowly adding/transitioning into T3 units.
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Do not look just into one direction. This game is not the Day9 funmap Monobattle. You do not have to build SH only.
1.banshees wont kill them faster, because SH got a HP buff.
2. Combine swarmhost with other units to defend them.
3. widowmine kills the first wave, but when the second one comes its still on cooldown (with the hydra speedupgrade on t2, mb there is a possible good combination of roach/hydra and later adding some SH).
4.reaper vs locusts, rly?
5.Hellbats range alone makes them suck vs locusts. if you focus u get a few hellbats for free, remember locusts doesnt cost anything. Nothing happens if you lose them.
Maybe i am wrong, 1 day after a patch with so many changes and new possible combinations its just too early to argue against them.
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Why don't you look at every option against swarmhosts and think about what doing that takes away from their options? Every thing you listed is either directly a cost or an opportunity cost (as in they can't build something else). You understand what I'm saying?
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:01 Jerubaal wrote:
Why don't you look at every option against swarmhosts and think about what doing that takes away from their options? Every thing you listed is either directly a cost or an opportunity cost (as in they can't build something else). You understand what I'm saying?
This exactly. Looking at Swarm Hosts in a vacuum might make them seem weak, because they are such a specialized unit. They force opponents to have/make some tech, even just the threat of them. If you get caught with some armies and Zerg makes even 10 Swarm Hosts, it can be nearly impossible to come back from.
Not to mention they are a unit that isn't very simple to use, In my experience a lot of people just make them, plant them outside of their opponents base, rally the locusts in, and see how effective that is. If the opponent has the appropriate counters, they just conclude "this unit is bad". But there are so many more options for Swarm Hosts. Probably the most appealing in Swarm Host drops. As a Mech player, I've no idea how to deal with this cost effectively if the Zerg opened Mutas earlier on (meaning I can't use banshees to kill the Swarm Hosts. Just three packs of Swarm Hosts in Overlords moving back and forth between 3 bases for a Mech player can be a nightmare - especially if some of them get into a corner of your base where all the chokes make it impossible to even get to them. Not to mention it is basically a risk-free pressure. At worst your free Locusts do no damage, at best they start trading themselves with gas units.
If they buff Swarm Hosts at all ever, I would just like to see it in their move speed. But I really don't think they are a bad unit.
Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now.
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Swarm Host is an awful unit that'll be a pain to balance. Here's why:
They suck in small numbers. If you add just a few to your army, the effect is negligible. The opponent can kill the locusts, especially with some AoE, very very easily, so they don't put the kind of pressure they're supposedly designed to put. They end up making your entire army less mobile, for little to no benefit. You're better off making other units.
If you mass them, they become more effective and can put on pressure, but then they take up so much supply, that almost your entire army has to be Swarm Hosts. This leaves a lot of vulnerabilities naturally, immobility being one. Unlike Broodlords, they can be attacked by ground attacks and since they spawn units not continuously like Broodlords, but in waves, if the opponent has a way to kill the locusts quickly with AoE, which both Terran and Protoss do, in between the waves they're just sitting ducks waiting to be killed.
If they tweak the numbers so that they're actually good, because of the way they work, they will be massed, and you'll have people complaining "all Zerg ever does is mass 1 unit, IMBA IMBA".
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On December 08 2012 05:18 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now.
Really? I've been trying to use them in ZvZ and have found them to be quite hard to use, although they can be effectiev if you out-maneuver your opponent. Roach/hydra with the hydra upgrade is so fast now it's hard to get the swarm hosts into a position where you can force your opponent to actually fight the locusts. I'm trying muta --> swarm host so that I can get a contain up while my opponent is playing defensively, but I have not found them to be dominant. I went 1/2 last night, will try again soon.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:38 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 05:18 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now. Really? I've been trying to use them in ZvZ and have found them to be quite hard to use, although they can be effectiev if you out-maneuver your opponent. Roach/hydra with the hydra upgrade is so fast now it's hard to get the swarm hosts into a position where you can force your opponent to actually fight the locusts. I'm trying muta --> swarm host so that I can get a contain up while my opponent is playing defensively, but I have not found them to be dominant. I went 1/2 last night, will try again soon.
I don't play Zerg, but that's what Blade555555 said in a thread last week. And he's like GM/High Master Zerg player. Idra reached a similar conclusion in his short time on HotS.
Basically they both said, Muta > Swarm Host is the dominant strategy. I don't know if that will change with the faster, fast Hydras, but I doubt it. Perhaps there are some maps where Swarm Hosts can be too easily flanked, and I'm sure you can't go Muta > Swarm Host if you both go Muta, but yeah. They seem to think Muta>Swarm Host is the best.
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From what I saw, Idra just walk past the locusts and snip the SH with a few roaches. SH seems great if the enemy's willing to stay where they are and wait for you to pile on the damage, but I'm pretty sure all units are good if the enemy don't fight back.
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I haven't seen much kiting with them yet, which might be interesting. This gets into the drop play suggestion, but once the locusts have popped, you don't need to keep swarm hosts where they are. I was watching Idra's stream and the opposing players had to wait for the locusts to die to run forward, or somehow run around them. However, Idra didn't move the swarm hosts as soon as the wave popped, and probably could of kept them out of harm's way. Would at least be interesting to see. As for ZvZ though, I'm thinking Muta is going to become the dominant force now that fungal is harder to land and mutas are faster.
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That is the most ridiculous post I have ever read.
None of those things actually deal with locusts effectively aside from siege tanks.
Do you realize how many ravens you would have to build to take out a whole army of SH?
And oracles run out of energy fairly quickly with new pulsar beam, especially when trying to snipe 20-30 constantly respawning locusts.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
None of those things actually deal with locusts effectively aside from siege tanks.
If you don't know about latest patch, so leave the thread. Medivacs now can heal both, reapers and hellbats, which are counters to locusts. With insane healing speed, locusts can deal ZERO damage to enemy.
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in ZvZ it is insanely effective to go roach bane and kill locusts with banes since they are light. so 2 base SH isnt viable in my opinion since you wont have any or much support if you go SHs on 2 base so the banes will connect pretty much every time.
3 base after ling muta or roach hydra opening it might be fine though.
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On December 08 2012 06:27 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +None of those things actually deal with locusts effectively aside from siege tanks.
If you don't know about latest patch, so leave the thread. Medivacs now can heal both, reapers and hellbats, which are counters to locusts. With insane healing speed, locusts can deal ZERO damage to enemy.
Well, don't fucking build swarm host against hellbat medivac then oO
Swarm host seems good in ZvZ and ZvP.
Perhaps they're lacking a bit in ZvT but it's not like they're bad at all. It's a good unit.
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On December 08 2012 05:18 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 05:01 Jerubaal wrote:
Why don't you look at every option against swarmhosts and think about what doing that takes away from their options? Every thing you listed is either directly a cost or an opportunity cost (as in they can't build something else). You understand what I'm saying? This exactly. Looking at Swarm Hosts in a vacuum might make them seem weak, because they are such a specialized unit. They force opponents to have/make some tech, even just the threat of them. If you get caught with some armies and Zerg makes even 10 Swarm Hosts, it can be nearly impossible to come back from. Not to mention they are a unit that isn't very simple to use, In my experience a lot of people just make them, plant them outside of their opponents base, rally the locusts in, and see how effective that is. If the opponent has the appropriate counters, they just conclude "this unit is bad". But there are so many more options for Swarm Hosts. Probably the most appealing in Swarm Host drops. As a Mech player, I've no idea how to deal with this cost effectively if the Zerg opened Mutas earlier on (meaning I can't use banshees to kill the Swarm Hosts. Just three packs of Swarm Hosts in Overlords moving back and forth between 3 bases for a Mech player can be a nightmare - especially if some of them get into a corner of your base where all the chokes make it impossible to even get to them. Not to mention it is basically a risk-free pressure. At worst your free Locusts do no damage, at best they start trading themselves with gas units. If they buff Swarm Hosts at all ever, I would just like to see it in their move speed. But I really don't think they are a bad unit. Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now.
From who? I also heard that Dustin Browder is secretly working with Riot to make sure that they add rocks in the middle lane.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 06:45 phodacbiet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 05:18 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 05:01 Jerubaal wrote:
Why don't you look at every option against swarmhosts and think about what doing that takes away from their options? Every thing you listed is either directly a cost or an opportunity cost (as in they can't build something else). You understand what I'm saying? This exactly. Looking at Swarm Hosts in a vacuum might make them seem weak, because they are such a specialized unit. They force opponents to have/make some tech, even just the threat of them. If you get caught with some armies and Zerg makes even 10 Swarm Hosts, it can be nearly impossible to come back from. Not to mention they are a unit that isn't very simple to use, In my experience a lot of people just make them, plant them outside of their opponents base, rally the locusts in, and see how effective that is. If the opponent has the appropriate counters, they just conclude "this unit is bad". But there are so many more options for Swarm Hosts. Probably the most appealing in Swarm Host drops. As a Mech player, I've no idea how to deal with this cost effectively if the Zerg opened Mutas earlier on (meaning I can't use banshees to kill the Swarm Hosts. Just three packs of Swarm Hosts in Overlords moving back and forth between 3 bases for a Mech player can be a nightmare - especially if some of them get into a corner of your base where all the chokes make it impossible to even get to them. Not to mention it is basically a risk-free pressure. At worst your free Locusts do no damage, at best they start trading themselves with gas units. If they buff Swarm Hosts at all ever, I would just like to see it in their move speed. But I really don't think they are a bad unit. Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now. From who? I also heard that Dustin Browder is secretly working with Riot to make sure that they add rocks in the middle lane.
See the post following in this thread. I heard that from Blade55555 a gm/high master Zerg who has been playing a lot of HotS. He says Muta>Swarm Host is the go-to strategy.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I just played a game as mech terran on Korhal City against MASS, MASS swarmhosts with a load of corrupter support and he always kept them just out of range of my tanks so I could basically never move out.
I wasn't really sure what to do as it flustered me, but the waves kept on coming and coming until I just died to not being able to mine/produce anymore. I was running past really quickly trying to take potshots and go kill bases with his hellions and he never really got mining on more than 4 bases (even with me), but eventually it wore me down.
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Of course if you cluster up your swarm hosts in a little ball and send the locusts in one big wave every 25 seconds you're going to find this unit underwhelming. Try using it in smaller numbers (contrary to popular belief it doesn't NEED to be massed) using 3 to attack 1 expansion while you attack others. Pressure a front while you harass with mutalisks. Drop in the base for some harass that they need detection to deal with, send half your locusts one way and half another way, stagger your spawns for a tighter cycle, or spawn and retreat. The swarm host doesn't need to remain burrowed while the locusts do their work. They rarely need to be near the battle at all! Be creative and for gods sake SUPPORT THEM! I could list 10 times more weaknesses for zerglings but fortunately you have more units to build.
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On December 08 2012 05:00 Decendos wrote:
basically most of zerg T2 is not viable right now imo.
how is zerg t2 not viable right now with the hydra and muta speed buff?
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On December 08 2012 05:51 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 05:38 JDub wrote:On December 08 2012 05:18 ZjiublingZ wrote:
Not to mention I heard they dominate ZvZ meta-game right now. Really? I've been trying to use them in ZvZ and have found them to be quite hard to use, although they can be effectiev if you out-maneuver your opponent. Roach/hydra with the hydra upgrade is so fast now it's hard to get the swarm hosts into a position where you can force your opponent to actually fight the locusts. I'm trying muta --> swarm host so that I can get a contain up while my opponent is playing defensively, but I have not found them to be dominant. I went 1/2 last night, will try again soon. I don't play Zerg, but that's what Blade555555 said in a thread last week. And he's like GM/High Master Zerg player. Idra reached a similar conclusion in his short time on HotS. Basically they both said, Muta > Swarm Host is the dominant strategy. I don't know if that will change with the faster, fast Hydras, but I doubt it. Perhaps there are some maps where Swarm Hosts can be too easily flanked, and I'm sure you can't go Muta > Swarm Host if you both go Muta, but yeah. They seem to think Muta>Swarm Host is the best.
They used to, while muta are dominant in zvz now swarmhosts aren't as good I have found now. Since the patch I haven't been winning when going swarmhosts. Roach/hydra now that hydras are fast can avoid the locusts and yeah dunno I might have been using them wrong but I think swarmhosts aren't as good in zvz as they used to be or as dominant.
I am not seeing any zergs make them in zvz either when I play them or watching.
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EPT
