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sitromit
7051 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:30 Basileus wrote: how is zerg t2 not viable right now with the hydra and muta speed buff? Mutas are not viable because of Widow Mines, their speed is irrelevant when you risk losing all your Mutas any time you move around the map. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:30 Basileus wrote: how is zerg t2 not viable right now with the hydra and muta speed buff? oh you mean the 7% buff on mutas while medivac got a 66% speedbuff and is now faster for 8 seconds than mutas and even that is cooldown so not even energy burned? and the widow mine now burrows in 1 sec. and medivac is A LOT stronger now so tank + MMM got a lot stronger vs ling bling muta. at some time you will have to engage and not only mutas got worse due to faster medivac, also ling bling is weaker now because of medivacs new healing. and if you bait a stim with your mutas the medivac heals that hp must faster so every stim you force is now also weaker. so harrass with muta got weaker, fighting with ling bling muta got weaker and they cant even deny drops like prepatch. basically you wont build any mutas again right now in ZvT. ask blade or any other GM player. phoenix +1 range in last patch (which is fine btw since mutas in ZvP are okay) but made mutas even weaker than prepatch in ZvP also. so mutas got buffed in ZvZ vs infestor play and about as strong vs roach hydra. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On December 08 2012 08:05 Decendos wrote: oh you mean the 7% buff on mutas while medivac got a 66% speedbuff and is now faster for 8 seconds than mutas and even that is cooldown so not even energy burned? and the widow mine now burrows in 1 sec. and medivac is A LOT stronger now so tank + MMM got a lot stronger vs ling bling muta. at some time you will have to engage and not only mutas got worse due to faster medivac, also ling bling is weaker now because of medivacs new healing. and if you bait a stim with your mutas the medivac heals that hp must faster so every stim you force is now also weaker. so harrass with muta got weaker, fighting with ling bling muta got weaker and they cant even deny drops like prepatch. basically you wont build any mutas again right now in ZvT. ask blade or any other GM player. phoenix +1 range in last patch (which is fine btw since mutas in ZvP are okay) but made mutas even weaker than prepatch in ZvP also. so mutas got buffed in ZvZ vs infestor play and about as strong vs roach hydra. This pretty much. And Toss got a Phoenix buff just to counter the Muta buff, how is it a buff if you're buffing its direct counter in response? | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
And Toss got a Phoenix buff just to counter the Muta buff, how is it a buff if you're buffing its direct counter in response? Phoenixes still can reach mutalisks and kill them, and then snipe overlords if massed. Also phoenixes forcing zerg to go hydralisks and/or make mass spores at every base | ||
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Kreme
United States4 Posts
Does anyone think it would interesting to have a mid/late game upgrade for the swarm host that allowed them to load and launch banelings in a dodgeable arc. It would have a moderate range and only be useable while unburrowed. Not sure on numbers: Damage/explosion radius - same as a baneling on foot Range - 9? Speed - about the same as the beta infestor projectile, but launched in an arc Launch/load while unburrowed only Maybe it could load 4 at once instantly and fire at a rate slightly slower than a siege tank, but each bane would have to be targetted/queued and fired manually. I feel like it would add a second diverse function to the swarm host and add to zerg's options. And it would be micro-intensive and interesting to watch, a player with lots of APM could spawn locusts, uproot and launch banes during an engagement. I wanted to post this in the battle.net beta thread, but I am not actually in beta so I cannot... is there anyone who is/ who thinks its a worthwhile idea to suggest in the battle.net beta thread? | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
I've found swarm hosts to be a huge pain in the ass to play against BC it basically forces you to make tanks... | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
I loled pretty hard at these threads | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:33 blade55555 wrote: They used to, while muta are dominant in zvz now swarmhosts aren't as good I have found now. Since the patch I haven't been winning when going swarmhosts. Roach/hydra now that hydras are fast can avoid the locusts and yeah dunno I might have been using them wrong but I think swarmhosts aren't as good in zvz as they used to be or as dominant. I am not seeing any zergs make them in zvz either when I play them or watching. haha damn things changing fast! makes sense though. A siege/positional unit like the Swarm Host seems better after you gain a significant advantage in positioning or army size. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:53 MateShade wrote: The patch has been out for one day and already all of lair tech isn't viable. I loled pretty hard at these threads Don't forget Brood Lords. They're bad now. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:27 sitromit wrote: Swarm Host is an awful unit that'll be a pain to balance. Here's why: They suck in small numbers. If you add just a few to your army, the effect is negligible. The opponent can kill the locusts, especially with some AoE, very very easily, so they don't put the kind of pressure they're supposedly designed to put. They end up making your entire army less mobile, for little to no benefit. You're better off making other units. If you mass them, they become more effective and can put on pressure, but then they take up so much supply, that almost your entire army has to be Swarm Hosts. This leaves a lot of vulnerabilities naturally, immobility being one. Unlike Broodlords, they can be attacked by ground attacks and since they spawn units not continuously like Broodlords, but in waves, if the opponent has a way to kill the locusts quickly with AoE, which both Terran and Protoss do, in between the waves they're just sitting ducks waiting to be killed. If they tweak the numbers so that they're actually good, because of the way they work, they will be massed, and you'll have people complaining "all Zerg ever does is mass 1 unit, IMBA IMBA". You're making an excellent point here. Kudos to you. The Swarm Host is very different from the Lurker in terms of an area control unit, because the Lurker had splash damage. It meant that although it was certainly stronger to have more lurkers up to a certain point, they started falling off after you got enough to kill an enemy unit in one or two shots (e.g. on Fighting Spirit you can hold the top of a ramp against MM with only three Lurkers, and any more are just a waste). With the Swarm Host, on the other hand, you're stuck in a constant arms race with your opponent. Even more unfortunately, they're stuck in an all-or-nothing position where they either obliterate the enemy army before taking any losses or else get completely wiped out themselves. It's just like the Broodlord and the Infestor, actually. It's an inherent problem of free units, and it's something Blizzard seriously needs to address if they want to make Zerg the swarm race. Perhaps the best move would be to make Broodlings and Locusts cost money. That way it becomes a legit siege. Just a few considerations. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 08 2012 09:53 MateShade wrote: The patch has been out for one day and already all of lair tech isn't viable. I loled pretty hard at these threads yeah because lair tech units are just bad since the patch...not. in fact hydras got better but they are still on a very weak level especially without viper support. mutas got even worse, SHs didnt change at all (so stay bad), infestor got a lot worse. drop play, nydus play, burrowplay didnt change so also stays bad. i dont see your problem. most lairtech units were bad prepatch and now either got worse or didnt change, except the hydra but the hydra comes from such a low level that its still a bad unit for 2 supply. well we will see. at least blizzard stated they want zerg players to stay much longer on T2. so maybe the hard and needed buffs to lairtech units and mechanics like nydus/burrowmovement/dropplay will come in the next patch. it would be awesome if zerg could actually fight with T2 for a much longer time instead of needing spellcaster (infestor and/or viper) support to stand a chance even in the midgame to early lategame. if T2 + spellcaster gets too strong after buffing T2 they can just move infestor and viper up to techtree. so maybe infestor hivetech and viper hive + spire or something like that. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 08 2012 04:45 Existor wrote: - widow mine drops to swarm host fields with 1 second burrow can kill all hosts in some second. Just drop widow mines, do their work and load back to medivac and quickly fly away! Widow mines don't target cloaked and burrowed units anymore. Swarm Hosts are viable, but they do have plenty of counters. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Widow mines don't target cloaked and burrowed units anymore. One scan and 3-4 or more snipes coming here , so what is the point of the whine? Any Zerg-question thread = whine? I've just asked you to suggest me reasons to build swarm hosts, in what situations they're good. Instead you're started scream that it's another whine thread | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 08 2012 19:15 Rabiator wrote: You still need DETECTION and PLAYER ATTENTION to kill the actual Swarm Host, so what is the point of the whine? The SH can be buried anywhere and the locusts can attack (=attract attention) FAR AWAY from the SH itself, so finding them is going to be hard. Just bury one of them anywhere in the open and have his locusts attack a Terran/Protoss wall somewhere ... If your opponent starts looking for them you can either attack somewhere else or ambush his forces trying to kill the SH ... a few Roaches buried next to the SH can easily defend them against most of the stuff listed as counters. yeah this is true. but the T player then can just go on and a-move your base. SHs need to be able to be effective in armies or become way cheaper in cost and supply if you really want to make them just an "attract attention" unit. right now you have to use basically 100% of your income to build SHs so if the opponent just counter attacks you have a huge problem. so either buff locusts so they get better in fights or make them cheaper so you can only build 4-5 of them to "attract" attention and you still have min/gas to actually build units if the opponent decides to just attack you. the SH right now isnt worth its cost and supply. you can fix this by either buffing the locusts (faster speed, more hp, higher range, faster spawning rate, higher damage (dont like the last two) etc.) or by making it cost only 2 supply and only something like 150/75. same approach goes towards the hydra btw. either buff their damage, hp, range, upgrade scaling or make them 75/25 and 1 supply. same style of fixing a unit. either buff it or make it cheaper cost and supplywise. | ||
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LOLingBuddha
Netherlands697 Posts
On December 08 2012 06:27 Existor wrote: If you don't know about latest patch, so leave the thread. Medivacs now can heal both, reapers and hellbats, which are counters to locusts. With insane healing speed, locusts can deal ZERO damage to enemy. if its costing medivac energy and certain time from other units to kill the locusts wouldnt that still be a fair deal for a freespawning unit? you are throwing out locusts, hes throwing out medivac energy and fire time on several units. now couple that with a few extra units from zerg and theyll still be losing all that and have to make choices what to kill. pretty fair deal imo | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
On December 08 2012 08:37 Kreme wrote: Does anyone think it would interesting to have a mid/late game upgrade for the swarm host that allowed them to load and launch banelings in a dodgeable arc. It would have a moderate range and only be useable while unburrowed. Not sure on numbers: Damage/explosion radius - same as a baneling on foot Range - 9? Speed - about the same as the beta infestor projectile, but launched in an arc Launch/load while unburrowed only Maybe it could load 4 at once instantly and fire at a rate slightly slower than a siege tank, but each bane would have to be targetted/queued and fired manually. I feel like it would add a second diverse function to the swarm host and add to zerg's options. And it would be micro-intensive and interesting to watch, a player with lots of APM could spawn locusts, uproot and launch banes during an engagement. I wanted to post this in the battle.net beta thread, but I am not actually in beta so I cannot... is there anyone who is/ who thinks its a worthwhile idea to suggest in the battle.net beta thread? Something like this is exactly what needs to happen to the swarm host. At the moment, it is a boring, non micro intensive, hard to balance unit that spawns masses of completely expendable, slow, also non micro intensive units. It needs to be aoe - Zerg need a more interesting, skill based aoe mechanic than banelings 1aing in (although fungal change helped this). Your change would be particularly good since it would make force field timings less dominant in pvz, although, it seems a bit... Overly complicated for a unit ability. i would more expect to see units throw other units in games like wc3 or dota, but still, great idea for a variety of reasons. I just really think this unit needs to be more micro based and have the capacity to actually damage the enemy heavily rather than just chip away at them. Banelings are really the only Zerg unit that can do serious aoe damage in the early/midgame for Zerg (fungal is weaker than before, incapable of keeping up with medivacs for instance)... Compare with Terran having tons of splash on mech units, ravens, and toss with their storm, archon, collosi... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 08 2012 19:41 Decendos wrote: yeah this is true. but the T player then can just go on and a-move your base. Rofl ... but this is stupid, since Terrans have never been able to simply a-move into a base as much as Zerg does. Swarm Hosts are decoys and diversions - if used is small numbers - which require a disproportionate amount of player attention to deal with. | ||
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Uncreative_Troll
98 Posts
Just the question, Terrans got more options to kill Swarm Hosts: - Reapers as anti-light against locusts and quick infantry, can be healed - Hellbats can be healed, anti-light too - Siege Tanks already do that - Raven can easily snipe Swarm Hosts - widow mine drops to swarm host fields with 1 second burrow can kill all hosts in some second. Just drop widow mines, do their work and load back to medivac and quickly fly away! - widow mine counters all or half locusts, because they can target temporary units - banshees now are more effective against swarm hosts, because they will have some weapon upgrades from mech army They should buff locust speed to 2.25 and/or buff their health, or make 3 locust spawning at time, because right now Swarm Hosts are useless. Against Protoss zergs have problems too: - timewarp slows locusts a lot, with time warp locusts move slow like Queens offcreep - Oracles with anti-light lazer can kill many locusts just for energy cost - M-Core provides long-range detector - Void Rays can quickly kill all locusts and then more quickly with charged boost kill SHosts - you can normally recall your forces if you're atacked by many locusts - FF works well against locusts - tempests can snipe swarm hosts, not that quickly, but it's works a bit - swarm host player is very immobile against prizm drops and oracle harasses Locusts only cost time. Why do you think that it's a problem to trade Swarm Host time for Medivac/Raven/Oracle/M-Core/Sentry Energy? I don't play HotS, so I feel like I shouldn't comment on gameplay to much but units which get healed by Medivacs aren't immortal. You could focus enemy units and slowly let the Swarm Host pay for themselves while you know where the enemy is and force him to defend/spread out/do something, I guess. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:33 blade55555 wrote: They used to, while muta are dominant in zvz now swarmhosts aren't as good I have found now. Since the patch I haven't been winning when going swarmhosts. Roach/hydra now that hydras are fast can avoid the locusts and yeah dunno I might have been using them wrong but I think swarmhosts aren't as good in zvz as they used to be or as dominant. I am not seeing any zergs make them in zvz either when I play them or watching. it makes sense because it'd be more effective to mass more roach+hydra than your enemy could mass enough swarm hosts, esp if you are coming off a muta opening. but then i guess it depend on the map, running around creep to avoid locusts to hit their expos. | ||
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