EPT[Q] Reason to build Swarm Hosts now? - Page 4
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Zihua
Netherlands177 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:18 Zihua wrote: I've just had 60 supply of Mech completely shut down with 5 Swarm Hosts and a bit of minimal Roach/Hydra support. They're incredibly powerful if you don't deal with them properly. Yeah, I'd say there's a reason to make them. How exactly did that happen? | ||
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Neeh
Norway458 Posts
That's never going to be the case.. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:30 Basileus wrote: how is zerg t2 not viable right now with the hydra and muta speed buff? haha. you mean the 7% speedbuff while phoenix got buffed even more vs mutas with rangebuff and especially in ZvT you will not build a muta again until the next patch because widow mines shoot air, burrow now in 1 sec, MMM got stronger because of 66% more healing, you cant catch medivac because of speedboost and hellbats destroy ling bling support for mutas even more combined with stronger MMM and widow mines? and hydras are a little faster now (still slower than oncreep) and otherwise is still the worst unit in the game except in ZvZ and with roach viper support vs mech. | ||
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FromShouri
United States862 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:27 Decendos wrote: haha. you mean the 7% speedbuff while phoenix got buffed even more vs mutas with rangebuff and especially in ZvT you will not build a muta again until the next patch because widow mines shoot air, burrow now in 1 sec, MMM got stronger because of 66% more healing, you cant catch medivac because of speedboost and hellbats destroy ling bling support for mutas even more combined with stronger MMM and widow mines? and hydras are a little faster now (still slower than oncreep) and otherwise is still the worst unit in the game except in ZvZ and with roach viper support vs mech. boo hoo? I play both sides of this coin and its not as bad as you claim. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:49 FromShouri wrote: boo hoo? I play both sides of this coin and its not as bad as you claim. so ask highlevel player like blade who stated numerous times muta is dead ZvT and hydras still suck without vipersupport and even then suck vs bio, HT and airplay. | ||
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cyberamine
Canada5 Posts
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number01
203 Posts
Maybe the swarm host will have the same fate as the warhound? we'll see. | ||
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FeUerFlieGe
United States1193 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:58 Decendos wrote: so ask highlevel player like blade who stated numerous times muta is dead ZvT and hydras still suck without vipersupport and even then suck vs bio, HT and airplay. I was watching IdrA play muta ZvT earlier... it's still good. Just realize you are going to have to transition out of it at some point into Ultralisk | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
On December 09 2012 09:49 FromShouri wrote: boo hoo? I play both sides of this coin and its not as bad as you claim. This guy is probably the most biased Zerg I've seen commenting around the forums I wouldn't take the bait | ||
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
On December 08 2012 05:51 ZjiublingZ wrote: I don't play Zerg, but that's what Blade555555 said in a thread last week. And he's like GM/High Master Zerg player. Idra reached a similar conclusion in his short time on HotS. Basically they both said, Muta > Swarm Host is the dominant strategy. I don't know if that will change with the faster, fast Hydras, but I doubt it. Perhaps there are some maps where Swarm Hosts can be too easily flanked, and I'm sure you can't go Muta > Swarm Host if you both go Muta, but yeah. They seem to think Muta>Swarm Host is the best. IdrA recanted on his statement following additional play with them. He ended up getting owned by roach/hydra infestor many games in a row going for that strategy. I've been trying to work them into my play but, especially vs terran, I don't see them being effective honestly. Hellbat/maurader pushes are so damn strong at the moment (with healing and damage buff) that you risk losing to pushes if you don't rush to muta's. I can't say swarm host will be useless, however I see them being no more than very situational at this point. Zerg took a hard hit last patch on their T2 tech (only to get Hydra speed and health buff to SH) and I'm still trying to find a way to account for this. P.S. oh and infestors are super cute now. They can tickle the enemy to death lol.....that is if they can actually hit them. | ||
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RandomMan
44 Posts
But going as far to say these 2 units are bad against toss is simply absurd. SH has been good against toss since beta and mass muta just wreck toss since WOL. Now there are getting more buff on hp or speed, while phoenix just getting range upgrade is not going to make these units bad. Phoenix is good against muta now, not going to deny that. But then what? how viable the phoenix are when go into mid game? Or even late game? we all know how good phoenix are in late game right? Especially if the zerg player transition to hydra and ultra, toss will get rolf stomp since phoenix hard countered by hydra, and totally useless against ultra. The only 2 units toss can rely to fight back is just immortal and colossus (thanks to the tempest nerf and the ultra buff which make zealot and archon next to useless), and these 2 units are robo units which do not share upgrades with any stargate units... Maybe void rays can kill off the ultras, but they will die horribly against hydra... in fact hydra hard counter nearly all the protoss air arsenal, except the new oracle and tempest, but oracle are too fragile to fight hydra in a straight up battle, the attack range is too small not to mention it drain energy too much which means u cannot deal with mass hydra, and we all know how quick tempest kill hydra right? | ||
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RandomMan
44 Posts
drA recanted on his statement following additional play with them. He ended up getting owned by roach/hydra infestor many games in a row going for that strategy. I've been trying to work them into my play but, especially vs terran, I don't see them being effective honestly. Hellbat/maurader pushes are so damn strong at the moment (with healing and damage buff) that you risk losing to pushes if you don't rush to muta's. I can't say swarm host will be useless, however I see them being no more than very situational at this point. Zerg took a hard hit last patch on their T2 tech (only to get Hydra speed and health buff to SH) and I'm still trying to find a way to account for this. P.S. oh and infestors are super cute now. They can tickle the enemy to death lol.....that is if they can actually hit them. Yes terrans are straight up OP now due to medivac and armory upgrades buff, but you seems to forget there are protoss... hydra muta compositions are very strong against toss (add in ultra in late game), hydra protect muta from phoenix while muta protect hydra from zealot colossus. And dont start saying SH are situational, there is simply no other units that are more situational than tempest and mothership thanks to the nerf. Now tempest just do well against 5.5 units, there are BC, BL, colossus, carrier, tempest (yeah it counter itself, basically the new tempest version of "who has the most colossus and whose muta get the first hit") and mothership (this is the 0.5 unit i mentioned, due to only able to build 1 per player, and also the patch 8 reduce it to a joke that maybe you will never see it again in any serious gameplay). EDIT: P.S. Oh, just because medivac now out heal fungal does not mean toss can do so either, and i do not recall any toss able to heal themselves during a battle in 1v1). You can still able to chain fungal if you able to land the first hit. | ||
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rembrant
62 Posts
On December 08 2012 07:30 Basileus wrote: how is zerg t2 not viable right now with the hydra and muta speed buff? Hydras are a lot more viable in some situations but widow mines and phoenix rape mutas hard and infestors are a joke. | ||
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Virid
United States130 Posts
It might be necessary to reduce the time they are alive as well, while still making it so the upgrade keeps them alive for as long as their spawn cooldown. | ||
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madespecifically
39 Posts
On December 08 2012 04:45 Existor wrote: Just the question, Terrans got more options to kill Swarm Hosts: - Reapers as anti-light against locusts and quick infantry, can be healed - Hellbats can be healed, anti-light too - Siege Tanks already do that - Raven can easily snipe Swarm Hosts - widow mine drops to swarm host fields with 1 second burrow can kill all hosts in some second. Just drop widow mines, do their work and load back to medivac and quickly fly away! - widow mine counters all or half locusts, because they can target temporary units - banshees now are more effective against swarm hosts, because they will have some weapon upgrades from mech army They should buff locust speed to 2.25 and/or buff their health, or make 3 locust spawning at time, because right now Swarm Hosts are useless. Against Protoss zergs have problems too: - timewarp slows locusts a lot, with time warp locusts move slow like Queens offcreep - Oracles with anti-light lazer can kill many locusts just for energy cost - M-Core provides long-range detector - Void Rays can quickly kill all locusts and then more quickly with charged boost kill SHosts - you can normally recall your forces if you're atacked by many locusts - FF works well against locusts - tempests can snipe swarm hosts, not that quickly, but it's works a bit - swarm host player is very immobile against prizm drops and oracle harasses Well, as a terran, I have been having trouble vs swarm hosts recently in masters/gm, so I decided to share my thoughts. 1. Reapers vs swarm hosts is suicide. Locusts destroy reapers, cause locusts have huuuge damage, and reapers have not much health. 2. If you siege 4 siege tanks, and have 4 swarm hosts burrowed, the siege tank's damage output is definately not enough to kill all the locusts before they come to them. Hence, siege tanks may kill locusts, but not fast enough. 3. Raven might be able to easily snipe the swarm host, but that impies you have no other stuff around. For example, corruptors or hydras. 4. The widow mine drop into the swarm host seems like a nice idea, again implies there is nothing around the swarm hosts, like hydras or roaches. 5. Again, banshees killing swarm hosts imply there is no other stuff around the swarm hosts. The only viable strat i found to be ok vs swarm hosts is doom drops, drops in general, and a very high siege tank count. So, yeah, In my experience, swarm hosts are very very strong. | ||
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RenZan
France35 Posts
actually bioball is strong vs all the ranged units of the zerg whatever they are roaches or hydras or swarm hosts, its just ridiculous how they are ineffective in my opinion. | ||
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NeWnAr
Singapore231 Posts
Therefore the SH is in effect actually somewhat like a reactor add-on like thing for Zerg, instead of what Blizzard promoted as an area-control unit. Locusts are somewhat the bastard child between roaches and lings, and what the SH does basically is produce it. It does not use the locusts directly, and the locusts do not do any job without actually microing or at least rallying them. This is where locusts are different from BL broodlings. Broodlings do not need to be micro-ed at all most of the time and perform their job automatically. Locusts are spawned, moved, and made to attack or defend or whatnot. Noone does this with broodlords. Has anyone seen strategies using BLs to spawn broodlings from afar then send the broodlings in? I don't think so. I've hardly even seen anyone select broodlings. Although both utilize "free" units, they are essentially very different concepts. Like what I said, SHs are actually Zerg reactors. They are buildings more than units. Production facilities similar to the Red Alert Yuri faction's clone factories, except that they can only produce one type of unit, but is mitigated by the fact that these units take up 0 supply. This explains why they are weak in small numbers, but very very intimidating in large numbers. It also explains who so many units counter the SH. Because it is a BUILDING. If you consider unburrow the ground version of the terran liftoff, there you have it. These things are production facilities so use them like production facilities. Their production cycle is similar to that of the warpgate, which is basically spawn first, cd later. So all in all, the Swarm Host is actually a massable Zerg production building that produces a roach/ling hybrid that costs no supply but has timed life using Protoss warpgate mechanics and can be moved around the map like Terran barracks but doesn't ignore terrain. Use them as such. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
The problem I've ran into with Swarm Hosts is that after they've spawned their locusts and the locusts are dead or about to die, they become useless supply and actually make your army weaker because they can't do anything for a certain period of time. For a 200/100/3 supply unit they are very underwhelming, which is disappointing because I REALLY want to incorporate Swarm Hosts into my army. Another sad part about them is that they can't be left alone. I've tried numerous games to use 4-5 of them to pressure an enemy's 3rd while I pressure their natural only to have them get absolutely shredded between waves. Personally I'd like Blizzard to increase their spawn rate at the expense of making locusts weaker hp or damage wise so that they're not just a more expensive Widow Mine and actually have some utility in a battle like Lurkers were in BW. As of right now they're just not worth building against T or P. | ||
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