[Q] Reason to build Swarm Hosts now? - Page 3

ETisME

12702 Posts

December 08 2012 14:07 GMT

#41

the biggest problem I see in swarm host is how much baby sitting they need to work, making 'hit and run' strategy not really viable for this unit.
And it's a unit that you need to mass up in order for it to work. Otherwise some siege tanks and widow mines shut down the locust pressure quite easily.

It's also a lot more prone to drops than other style, especially early drops when you can't afford to put much statistic defense out.

Fliparoni

205 Posts

December 08 2012 14:13 GMT

#42

IMO its a very "all or nothing" unit. Whenever I've won with them, I've had to make a huge investment and mass up at least 15+ for them to be effective. Unlike siege tanks, you can't really mix in a handful of SH's into your army and have it be effective.

ch4ppi

Germany802 Posts

December 08 2012 14:41 GMT

#43

As I was expecting the Swarm Host just does not fit in the game the way it is.

I've seen games where ZvT goes Hydra/Roach/Viper as their main army while keeping around 8 SH as a secondary army behind, while the first army tried to pull the T out of position the SH released their locus on weak defended positions. While this was viable in my eyes it should only work against Meching Terrans.
Toss will blink on them as soon as they know where they are and BioTerran will drop some marauders on top of them and focus them down... :-/

Im not quiet sure how they can work, because the mainproblem really is Low-Numbers = useless, high numbers = OP

Decendos

Germany1341 Posts

December 08 2012 14:53 GMT

#44

On December 08 2012 23:41 ch4ppi wrote:
As I was expecting the Swarm Host just does not fit in the game the way it is.

I've seen games where ZvT goes Hydra/Roach/Viper as their main army while keeping around 8 SH as a secondary army behind, while the first army tried to pull the T out of position the SH released their locus on weak defended positions. While this was viable in my eyes it should only work against Meching Terrans.
Toss will blink on them as soon as they know where they are and BioTerran will drop some marauders on top of them and focus them down... :-/

Im not quiet sure how they can work, because the mainproblem really is Low-Numbers = useless, high numbers = OP

they could pretty easily fix that and add the lurker. lurker + SH would be much more viable in smaller numbers since you cant just a-move it with bio or blink above it since if you do that the lurker destroy you. lurker would also fix the new MMM combined with supernerfed infestor and the inability to kill well microed MMM now.

i dont agree that they are OP in high numbers though. i have yet to see or play a game where mass SHs was good if the SH player hasnt gained a serious advantage earlier on. 20 SHs locusts get shut down by just 7 tanks or 4 colossus. 60 supply to 21/24 supply. thats horribly inefficient in high numbers and very far from OP. mass SH forces a reaction in AoE units but 7 tanks or 4 colossus are easily there once the Z hits 20 SHs.

mass SH are a very good option to kill your opponent if you are far ahead. at least at that they are good and it saves time since you dont have to wait for BLs if you are far ahead and just want to kill your opponent.

i would like to hear a blizzard statement on what they think the role of the SH should look like. hard siege unit with your army? harrass unit that fights alone? do they want them as support or as main army? in small or mass numbers? lurker in addition?

RavenLoud

Canada1100 Posts

December 08 2012 15:03 GMT

#45

people who say that there hasn't been any changes to SH, didn't they increase its health by 33% from 120 to 160?

Decendos

Germany1341 Posts

December 08 2012 15:26 GMT

#46

yes there has. but it changes nothing. SH are so slow that if they get caught off guard they die with 120 hp and they die with 160hp and they die with 200 hp. i would like it if they make them only 120hp again and make them more viable in other ways like buffing locust hp or making them cheaper on cost and supply.

Synk

United States297 Posts

December 08 2012 15:55 GMT

#47

Yea... I cannot even believe people are complaining. I've been playing zerg since WoL beta and this new stuff is fucking amazing. Hydra Ling into Hydra Swarmhost is fucking sick, you literally cover every early pressure and then follow up with a lair tech army that can challenge just about any composition. I just crushed a mech'ing Terran with Hydra Swarmhost, which I thought was the one thing the composition probably couldn't handle well. For the first time ever I feel like I can apply a ton of pressure on my T or P opponent off lair tech, without just being incredibly cost inefficient. I'm pretty sure if I cannot break them I can just go Hive and add-in ultras to make like the best zerg army ever.

Pretty sure Hydra Ling > Hydra Swarmhost > Hydra Swarmhost Ultra ( while getting range atk ups) is going to be the new meat and potato zerg build very soon. It's incredibly safe early while not being overly weak vs any one tech path, very flexible and fun.

WeRRa

378 Posts

December 08 2012 16:16 GMT

#48

So you basicly complain that you can't mass swarmhost and kill anything with it? Maybe you should think about, that the swarmhost was created to support your main army and not make the swarmhost to your mainarmy. For 8 months zerg was simply a broken race, now that blizzard is fixing it all, patchzergs are going to the leagues they belong to and of cause they whine about it.

User was warned for this post

Augas

8 Posts

December 08 2012 16:36 GMT

#49

Instead of asking for another buff for SH i would rather suggest to reduce the cost or building time for nydus. Maybe fast and relatively cheap nydus could work well with few SH to appear/disappear quickly in several places? That would make a whole new space for using SH as aharrasing unit rather then just slow siege unit. Any thoughts?

ETisME

12702 Posts

December 08 2012 16:40 GMT

#50

On December 09 2012 01:16 WeRRa wrote:
So you basicly complain that you can't mass swarmhost and kill anything with it? Maybe you should think about, that the swarmhost was created to support your main army and not make the swarmhost to your mainarmy. For 8 months zerg was simply a broken race, now that blizzard is fixing it all, patchzergs are going to the leagues they belong to and of cause they whine about it.

I think people like these should be warned at least, you don't even read why we are finding it not a good unit.
stupid comments like "patchzergs"; "broken race" etcetc can GTFO from this thread

We are complaining that if we were to use this unit effectively, we need to mass it, but even if we mass it, it doesn't mean it is effective.

KadaverBB

Germany25658 Posts

December 08 2012 16:48 GMT

#51

On December 09 2012 01:40 ETisME wrote:

Show nested quote +

Please do no post phrases such as "people like these should be warned/banned" etc. If you think their post should be looked at, just report them (which you did, well done

). Comments like these usually incite a discussion about moderation, which we do not need outside of the Website Feedback Forum.

Now, back to topic please

doffe

Sweden636 Posts

December 08 2012 17:15 GMT

#52

if massing swarmhost is the only way to make the uit really viable it kinda goes against what blizzard wants completly. They wanted it to be a unit good at defending strategical spots with small numbers, aka lurker.

Consider giving swarmhost its ability altered by the number of adjacent swarmhosts. Like a lone swarmhost spawns x units more or has a lower CD or something. This is just from the top of my head, probably a terrible idea but you get my point. I really think its a unit that we dont want to see massed. Much like the infestor it makes for boring games. Somehow they need to make it the other way arouind atleast, have it stronger in smaller numbers

gCgCrypto

Germany297 Posts

December 08 2012 17:31 GMT

#53

Actually swarm hosts are more then fine.
Right now they are right where they should be: A support unit!
You should never think "mhm if i go for only swarmhosts, what can counter them?"
They are a addition to your Lings/Roaches/Hydras and serve the purpose of (imo):

1. Forcing engagements! (if i have swarm hosts you need to make a move sooner or later because i will do free damage if you dont)

2. Herrassing Outer bases in late game (Cannons etc are cool to have however dont do mutch if there is a endless swarm of free units coming your way so you have to deal with it somehow, and that involves detection)

3. Provide a buffer for your real army (Locusts have good dps and good health and thus provide a nice shield infront of your hydras and Roaches)

4. Defend your other bases (In the late game you can not only herrass enemy bases with swarm hosts but also shut down drops and Zealot warpins quite good. 2 Swarm hosts are a good way to defend against smaller attacks or to delay bigger ones untill your army arrives. they also force atention of your oponent to be on the attack)

5. (against protoss and to a lesser extend Zerg) you can contain your oponent really easily with Swarm hosts by sniping observers with corrupter/hydra overseer thus preventing your swarmhosts from ever dying or your oponent from moving out/taking bases etc

neptunusfisk

2286 Posts

December 08 2012 18:18 GMT

#54

On December 08 2012 19:41 Decendos wrote:
yeah this is true. but the T player then can just go on and a-move your base.

It must be hard to be effectively a-moved because of your tech choice, and to actually have to deal with the army of your enemy. I feel bad for all the zergs that can't win because blizzard added a unit that's bad agains certain other units.

Switch24

United States20 Posts

December 08 2012 18:20 GMT

#55

I am a protoss player myself so I am not 100% positive on zerg dynamics, builds, etc etc. but here is how I see it. The SH is designed as a siege unit in the same way the tempest is. It's there to force engagements and to dictate positional play. For example, if you have 6 - 7 SH sitting not that far from a protoss third expo and you start sending locust towards that base the protoss has two options. 1. engage the locust in some way whether it be storms, AOE, zealots, stalkers, ffs, etc. or 2. ignore it. gCgCrypto ^^ said it in his first point. Either I, as a toss player, have to address it or take damage. It also forces me to reposition, to avoid an area possibly, and think more creatively on how to counter attack. The Tempest works the same way with its long range. Its designed to be a late game siege unit that forces zerg with brood lords to engage in some way or to ignore it and take damage.

TelecoM

United States10700 Posts

December 08 2012 18:32 GMT

#56

I love the swarmhost, they are amazing vs all races, I think they are a little more difficult to use vs terran but regardless, the Swarm Host is an AMAZING unit, if used properly. It is def. my new favorite unit and i'd rather have it than nothing at all, i'd rather have the lurker but the Swarm Host beats having nothing. Really good at stopping all ins, it is like the anti all in unit.

Glurkenspurk

United States1915 Posts

December 08 2012 18:34 GMT

#57

On December 09 2012 03:32 GGzerG wrote:
I love the swarmhost, they are amazing vs all races, I think they are a little more difficult to use vs terran but regardless, the Swarm Host is an AMAZING unit, if used properly. It is def. my new favorite unit and i'd rather have it than nothing at all, i'd rather have the lurker but the Swarm Host beats having nothing. Really good at stopping all ins, it is like the anti all in unit.

Don't spines do that better except they cost 0 gas and 0 supply? Defensively I'd rather have spines and spores.

neptunusfisk

2286 Posts

December 08 2012 18:34 GMT

#58

On December 09 2012 03:32 GGzerG wrote:
Really good at stopping all ins, it is like the anti all in unit.

Yey! It's about time zerg got something that beats that early game pressure.