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On October 28 2012 19:25 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 18:36 [F_]aths wrote:On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote:
I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy... Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed. Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary). They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it. The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS.
The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting.
Before you call Dustin Rocker a fool, please watch his 2011 lecture on Starcraft as an esport: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT
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Timewarp rewards good tactical positional play. Storm is simply a good spell and there are many ways to make use of it, trapping units up against walls/zealot flanks/forcefields etc.
Timewarp does not suddenly make protoss unbeatable, it is flexible and and rewards good tactical positional play. Not to mention that it does not affect air and has limited usefuless versus units like tanks/mines.
With clever use it can provide an advantage or set you back if you invest to much and lose them, but it will not outright win the game.
It provides good synergy with air units. So I can imagine games where terran goes mech, protoss gets some tempest and oracles, timewarp prevents ground units from getting to them which forces terran to get air units which leads to late game mass pvt air battles, I look forward to seeing them.
Also I would recomend watching some hots streams, I have seen some highly entertaining games, watching white-ra's stream. Blink stalker/templar versus mech. Or more recently there was a game where he almost killed a command centre with some oracles before losing them all to widow mines. His reaction was something along the lines of "wow, thats cool"
I dont have access to beta, so I am limited to speculating based on stats and watching streams but I see lots of fun and interesting potential, and this is beta more changes will be coming.
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On October 28 2012 20:52 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 19:51 Grummler wrote:The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST. It can be TWarped too.
I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does.
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On October 28 2012 21:12 Millet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 20:52 Existor wrote:On October 28 2012 19:51 Grummler wrote:The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST. It can be TWarped too. I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does.
being slowed is neither a stun or a snare according to most blizzard titles (eg wow and Diablo).
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On October 28 2012 22:00 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 21:12 Millet wrote:On October 28 2012 20:52 Existor wrote:On October 28 2012 19:51 Grummler wrote:The speed of Burrow Charge has been increased from 2.25 to 3.75.
Holy shit, that's FAST. It can be TWarped too. I haven't tested it, since I don't have the beta, but as far as I know the ultralisk still has its frenzy ability. This makes them immune to stun, snare and mind-control effects. I figure that TW goes under either stun or snare, since concussive shells does. being slowed is neither a stun or a snare according to most blizzard titles (eg wow and Diablo).
How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW.
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I am so damn happy, they got rid of the Entomb ability. Fuck yeah.
It seems to me they are finally getting into the right direction. At least with zerg and protoss. Terran I am not sure.
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On October 28 2012 22:03 Millet wrote:
How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW.
Because Concussive doesn't affect massive units.
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On October 28 2012 22:37 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 22:03 Millet wrote:
How do you explain thst ultralisks are immune to the marauders slow then? If concussive doesn't slow ultras, then neither should TW. Because Concussive doesn't affect massive units.
Ah ok, thank you for that information!
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I'm pretty sure TW does not affect ultralisks. But I will try later.
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Widow mine is still broken and stupid imo.
Lings have become completely useless. Their speed seems useless when you can lose over 20 from one mine and you have to wait for your slow overseer. Mech was already getting really strong in WoL cause people have learned how to play it.
Same goes for mutas - they have become a complete waste.
They just slow down the game and removes what was fun. Terran can also now easily contain me on 2 bases which leaves me going 2 base roach drop vs mech which just doesn't work anymore if people play properly.
I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU.
Mech was kinda cool in BW when there were a billion other things to challenge you mechanically but one of the highest skill demands in SC2 comes from the high speed games (which I personally prefer) but I kinda think this unit takes away from that.
I didn't like the new oracle spells before I started playing, but having tested it abit now it is indeed cooler and seems to have given toss some of what they needed to balance them.
much <3
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU.
I was trying 1gate expand - star or 1gate star - expand play vs terran, if he is not gasless it's almost a build order loss to mine drops. If he gets them behind your mineral lines in split positions the mothership core or a cannon per base are insufficient for detection - and if you are not super careful with the mothership core and mine recharge time (sacking units to them), it is going to instantly die when it spawns, 'cause you have mines next to the nexus. For 300/100 and the opportunity cost of taking gas and doing pretty much a reactor hellion expand but mines instead with a singular medivac, if you dont have a robo at like the 4:30 mark, you wont be able to mine from either mineral line and if you didnt go robo by like 6 minutes and he hits you with something like that, its at build order loss status. Its very difficult to play on beta, because there are so many things that you MUST or CANT do and you cant really figure them out without losing 20 or more games to people of far lower skill levels because they learned a gimmick like widow mine drop and played 200 games with it while you are on your first game of the beta.
For higher level players its frustrating, but i cant imagine trying to explain to a friend or two in bronze-gold league such a complex set of rules that they have to follow in order to avoid dieing horribly. If blizzard wants the game to appeal to casuals, the same people who refused to play because proxy reapers pissed them off and they didnt know what to do or how to win, then this unit design isnt it, because it feels a LOT more scary than proxy reapers ever were, even pre-nerf, no amount of micro will save your ass if you get mines in both of your mineral lines and dont have a robo started, the game is completely over.
I dont neccesarily disagree with it, but it's frustrating to have people freewin against you until you figure timings out, and i cant imagine even trying to explain all of the variables to somebody in the bottom half of the skill pyramid who is trying to play but dies every game to mine drops or blobs.
Also being forced to test this at 150 ping is extremely painful.
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Sounds like how Terran would complain about 6-pool and 4gate rushes.
Heh. Like I've been saying HotS is a "new" game, new experiences and new dynamics.
At least 60% of WOL builds AND timings IMHO, should not work otherwise, it will be an expansion not a sequel.
HotS has to as dramatic as SC1 vs. SC:BW in game play experience if not MORE drastic to give the feeling of a different game with the same characters. An example would be Final Fantasy series by Square Enix, every sequel was a new game, new dynamics, but always the same character archetypes and the same names.
On October 29 2012 00:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + I face alot less toss players now cause they apparantly also struggle ridiculously vs this silly unit but I don't know about that MU. I was trying 1gate expand - star or 1gate star - expand play vs terran, if he is not gasless it's almost a build order loss to mine drops. If he gets them behind your mineral lines in split positions the mothership core or a cannon per base are insufficient for detection - and if you are not super careful with the mothership core and mine recharge time (sacking units to them), it is going to instantly die when it spawns, 'cause you have mines next to the nexus. For 300/100 and the opportunity cost of taking gas and doing pretty much a reactor hellion expand but mines instead with a singular medivac, if you dont have a robo at like the 4:30 mark, you wont be able to mine from either mineral line and if you didnt go robo by like 6 minutes and he hits you with something like that, its at build order loss status. Its very difficult to play on beta, because there are so many things that you MUST or CANT do and you cant really figure them out without losing 20 or more games to people of far lower skill levels because they learned a gimmick like widow mine drop and played 200 games with it while you are on your first game of the beta. For higher level players its frustrating, but i cant imagine trying to explain to a friend or two in bronze-gold league such a complex set of rules that they have to follow in order to avoid dieing horribly. If blizzard wants the game to appeal to casuals, the same people who refused to play because proxy reapers pissed them off and they didnt know what to do or how to win, then this unit design isnt it, because it feels a LOT more scary than proxy reapers ever were, even pre-nerf, no amount of micro will save your ass if you get mines in both of your mineral lines and dont have a robo started, the game is completely over. I dont neccesarily disagree with it, but it's frustrating to have people freewin against you until you figure timings out, and i cant imagine even trying to explain all of the variables to somebody in the bottom half of the skill pyramid who is trying to play but dies every game to mine drops or blobs. Also being forced to test this at 150 ping is extremely painful.
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haha i like how zergs & protoss's change list is a decent size, then terran gets on little line about hellions xD
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On October 28 2012 21:03 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 19:25 Rabiator wrote:On October 28 2012 18:36 [F_]aths wrote:On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote:
I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy... Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed. Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary). They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it. The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS. The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting. Before you call Dustin Rocker a fool, please watch his 2011 lecture on Starcraft as an esport: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT
And because they get paid for it they can never ever make a mistake or misjudgement? That would be awesome, but there are tons of games which flop and to work as an esport you also have an audience and for that you need people playing the game and interested in watching it.
The thing is that BW was a very successful game as an eSport which was limited only by the available streaming technology and the limited graphics from becoming successful worldwide. The current SC2 has several "improvements" and these dont work well to make the game flexible (keeping your army in a tight formation will always triumph over a spread out army), something that wasnt there in BW. So whatever Dustin says in that GDC is irrelevant, because you still have to do it right.
Talk is cheap and it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you. [Batman Begins]
Currently they are trying to release a few half-baked units [Why else are the iterations of the units so wildly different if not because they didnt think/test them through thoroughly?] while the basic game has some major flaws and limitations which need to be fixed to have a greater longevity and flexibility for the game and gameplay. Dont misunderstand me, I like Starcraft and have waited for SC2 for years, but the current state is unplayable and has made the pro games rather boring after a while. I cant watch a game from start to end anymore, because they are all the same old "full army vs full army battles". This is very very critical and yet Blizzard fails to act. If they cant work on these changes because some managers are breathing down their necks with a "finish the expansion chop chop" it would be time for them to decide what is more important ... their job or the quality of their work. If they value quality as much as I do then they might even get help from the community to push some drastic changes through which would delay the expansion. Currently it looks like they value their jobs more, because the Warhound got scrapped without a replacement and they kinda frantically try to fix the rest of the bunch of new units. The new Oracle looks pretty untested (3 of them can easily tear down gas extractors and Time Warp is even more powerful). So why do you keep defending their work when it is obvious that it isnt good?
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I'm sad about entomb being removed; I really liked the ability, but that's pretty much it...
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On October 29 2012 03:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 21:03 [F_]aths wrote:On October 28 2012 19:25 Rabiator wrote:On October 28 2012 18:36 [F_]aths wrote:On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote:
I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy... Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed. Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary). They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it. The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS. The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting. Before you call Dustin Rocker a fool, please watch his 2011 lecture on Starcraft as an esport: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT And because they get paid for it they can never ever make a mistake or misjudgement? That would be awesome, but there are tons of games which flop and to work as an esport you also have an audience and for that you need people playing the game and interested in watching it. The thing is that BW was a very successful game as an eSport which was limited only by the available streaming technology and the limited graphics from becoming successful worldwide. The current SC2 has several "improvements" and these dont work well to make the game flexible (keeping your army in a tight formation will always triumph over a spread out army), something that wasnt there in BW. So whatever Dustin says in that GDC is irrelevant, because you still have to do it right. Talk is cheap and it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you. [Batman Begins] Currently they are trying to release a few half-baked units [Why else are the iterations of the units so wildly different if not because they didnt think/test them through thoroughly?] while the basic game has some major flaws and limitations which need to be fixed to have a greater longevity and flexibility for the game and gameplay. Dont misunderstand me, I like Starcraft and have waited for SC2 for years, but the current state is unplayable and has made the pro games rather boring after a while. I cant watch a game from start to end anymore, because they are all the same old "full army vs full army battles". This is very very critical and yet Blizzard fails to act. If they cant work on these changes because some managers are breathing down their necks with a "finish the expansion chop chop" it would be time for them to decide what is more important ... their job or the quality of their work. If they value quality as much as I do then they might even get help from the community to push some drastic changes through which would delay the expansion. Currently it looks like they value their jobs more, because the Warhound got scrapped without a replacement and they kinda frantically try to fix the rest of the bunch of new units. The new Oracle looks pretty untested (3 of them can easily tear down gas extractors and Time Warp is even more powerful). So why do you keep defending their work when it is obvious that it isnt good?
disagree. fungal, storm, emp, vortex, baneling, colossus, all encourages you to spread the army out.
For example, TvP viking MMM against stalker colossus ball, Terran tries to split his army to take less from the splash of colossus. It's just hard to see and appreciate.
full army vs full army battle has some interesting dynamics, it does look boring but you can always appreciate how each players try to gain a better position or start from the engagement.
how to get the full army, how to win the full army battle ARE interesting.
The problem I mainly see is a strong win by one deathball usually means GG even if you have better economy but cannot mass up fast enough to kill off the remaining units.
the level of balance does not matter so much right now. what we should help blizzard is to provide whether the idea of the unit is FUN or not.
The unit itself doesn't even need to be FUN, it just needs to make the game FUN such as opening up to interesting timing push.
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On October 28 2012 21:03 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 19:25 Rabiator wrote:On October 28 2012 18:36 [F_]aths wrote:On October 28 2012 15:58 Patate wrote:
I'm starting to think Blizzard is just lazy... Just because you don't know how hard the team works does not mean they are lazy. It just means that you are not well informed. Sorry, but this is kinda blind "Blizzard is great and you dont know how they work" is nonsensical propaganda, because most of the ideas which have come from Blizzard for the expansion so far have been downgrades (Reaper), completely absurd (Warhound, Time Warp, Widow Mine, ...) or simply either OP or useless in the concept of SC2 (Tempest, Swarm Host). In any case they didnt do anything about the suggestions of the community and simply tested some movement adjustment modification for five minutes and declared it useless (or rather unnecessary). They totally fail to see the problems of the game and this is either from being too lazy to see it/do anything about it OR from being incapable of seeing it. Patate just chose the more polite one here, but the truth is that suggestions and problems have been made for months without them acknowledging the problems or even trying the solutions in earnest. They claim to be trying to make mech viable, but the only thing they came up with is yet another stupid unit which doesnt really work well together with the core unit of that type: the Siege Tank. Keep on defending Dustin and his bunch of bumbling fools, the problems are defined by now and the suggestions are there to get rid of them and the best ones dont involve any new units at all. So either they have too many holy cows OR they are too lazy to do it. The most important part about it isnt actually DOING IT, but rather THINKING IT THROUGH and it is here where they seem to be lacking and it shows in their very very wildly different iterations of the units for HotS. The Blizzard design team is the design team and has a design perspective. Players like to have it easy, viewers like to have it exciting. Before you call Dustin Rocker a fool, please watch his 2011 lecture on Starcraft as an esport: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014488/The-Game-Design-of-STARCRAFT
Yeah, that's a really interesting lecture. I watched that a year or so ago and it helped me a lot in understanding SC2, especially with regard to the way counters are set up in the game, and the fact that the hard counters in the game are, perhaps, too hard. I'm hesitant, these days, about shouting "fix this, because it will solve the game!" as I really don't know, and I think there is enough difference in community opinion (or whining) for Blizzard to be wary of taking on board too much feedback. However, if there was one thing I would like in SC2, it is that counters should be softer so that more units are viable in a MU.
I'm happy, or can live with most other features of SC2 that "seem" (I am not sure they are) problematic like production boosts, pathing/movement, deathballs etc. This is also because I don't believe that SC2 is inherently broken or flawed in any critical way. It's a good game, perhaps even a very good one, and may yet become a great game depending on how HoTS goes and LoTV - if we get there. And if it does not get there? No worries. If crying about an internet game on the forums is the biggest of people's troubles, people might want to look up from their monitors and get some real problems to complain about.
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The oracle changes sound waaaaay more interesting.
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bring back oracle detection / mommacore energise, please blizzard!
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EPT
