Terran lategame fixing - Page 2

On October 17 2012 09:29 AzraelArchontas wrote:
While I believe Protoss lategate is the strongest with so many amazing T3 units

I agree that terran needs increase late-game production and the mechanics (chronoboost, larva inject, and mule) should be altered. I believe the main problem is the lack of choice if you don't use these mechanics you can't reach the higher leagues.

I would be fine with tech-reactor if
- increase cost to 100/100
- Dropped by Orbital For 100 energy (requires upgrade at armory for use)
- Takes 45-60 seconds to deploy
- Dose not double produce tech-lab units

This would
give access to more varied production changing it as needed without allowing for double production of everything.
Acts as a choice instead of mule and scan.
Increase early game choices.

I think this is acceptable and would make terran late-game production slightly more bearable.

Next just to address the post on units being more valuable and making repair a more used skill.
I would love to see tanks get
- Supply 2
- Cost 200/150
- Siege change time set to 6 seconds from 4
- Siege damage increase
- Siege splash damage increased
- Siege mode research time 60
- Siege tank production time increased 60 seconds
- Seige tank upgrade at armory for +1 range
- Speed 2 from 2.25

This makes Siege tanks stronger when deployed better space control over all and keeps them super deadly late game you can have more so sprinkling them about becomes easier but the loss of a tank is a bigger deal do to cost and time to replace as well the decreased mobility(siege duration, and movement speed) would make it harder to be reactive so you would need to already be in place before the engagement. Siege tanks would become even more of a positional unit and be more plentiful in the terran army.

These changes make the tech-reactor fair, and make slower production for all complain invalid.
You don't have to slow the game down less is not always more. Sometimes a unit just needs to become harder to replace not in invested resources but in invested time. Adding objectives and choices is much better then removing variation, and that is what you do when you remove Chrono, inject, and mule. Chrono can be used to alter timings get faster upgrades and tech or just to speed up economy or unit production using chrono boost wisely can make or break a protoss in masters, and the choice to creep over larva early is a big investment while Muleing over a scan may lose you the game. These are all choices brought on by these macro mechanics. The only one missing the choice is warpgate and I have been writing up a tread on that for about a month now. The only complain I have with these macro mechanics is these isn't enough choice because In the case of larva you basically use it all game if you never chorono you probably won't win and muleing is necessity that no terran can live without.

I think that an additional macro choice for terran would actually be worth while to see you can have more money or more production an interesting choice and it would make new directions for play because (theorycrafting here)

Go the normal barracks tech-lap move the factory onto the tech-lab skip the first mule drop tech reactor onto factory rush siege tech while being able to still double produce the hellions this would compile into more choices for the choice burdened terran players and make the early game even more hell. (I love this) This would counteract the new scouting power that protoss holds with no hallucination research because you could still be tricky with your timings skipping mules could be a bluff or you could be trying to eek out production advantage for mid-game.

On another note you would need to add similar mechanics to zerg and protoss.
Preferable another spell for queen that make larva inject a choice (this could also be a buff to creep or another way to access increased larva aside from a macro hatch.
And for protoss either a new nexus ability accessible in mid game or a siphon energy ability some sort of new way to utilize the nexus energy.

This would lead to a more exiting game in my opinion and alllow for more varried choices on the terrans part.

Feedback is Appreciated! :D (sorry for the bits of rambling mass but my point is there)

On October 17 2012 06:56 Robotix wrote:


Terran is supposed to remax slower than the other races; a maxed Terran late game army is generally stronger than the other races.

And 3-3-3 Carrier/Mothership is a bad composition.

On October 17 2012 10:52 Zombo Joe wrote:
The best way to fix it is let terran salvage their addons.

That way they tech switch easier instead of having to lift 20 building and find enough room to land and build the new addon.

better players are rewarded by not having to salvage.

Ez pz

#1: show rax(fact/starport) hologram with techlab attached, but allow to build if techlab overlaps with something
so terrans can now place them faster, dont need to care about "oh, could i attach lab after that?"

#2: add ability to queue lab/reactor while building raxes - is also speedup coming into lategame.
you know this state of game where zerg adds+2 macro hatcheries and toss adds +10 warpgates in a row and terran should carefully place 10 rax and do labs/reactor
^ NOTE: this is just cosmetic and mostly improve players below ML
and also placing your lategame raxes is not skillful, no one will ever say OMG OMG LOOK HOW HE PLACED HIS ADDITIONAL TEN STARPORTS, SOOO AWESOME

Now about gamechanging:
#3: i think blizz should add techlabed reactor (from wol campaign), make it 50/50/50 and add ability to upgrade to it (or just build/queue it) and make it upgrade from engineering bay (instead of useless Neosteel Frame) like 100-100 100 sec
mechanic is:
i research techlabed reactors
rax without add-on -> 50/50/50 to techlabed reactor add-on
rax with techlab -> 25/25/50 to TR-addon
rax with reactor -> 5 seconds of transition animation
building rax -> queue 50/50/50 techlabed reactor add-on

On October 16 2012 23:26 ZenZombie wrote:
Not having larva inject wouldn't "slow down zerg" it would outright murder it. Killing a single line of drones would make it to where zerg could not recover, because it would take 3 times as long to re saturate.

Tech reactors are horrendously overpowered. The entire premise behind a tech lab is a balanced tradeoff. The whole point is to force either picking better units or more basic units. Tech reactor tanks would drown opponents. Early mass marauder would be worse than roaches. Why? Because marauders take a lot of damage, and you could speed up production *more* than double because you wouldn't need all the tech labs, and you could effectively work off 2 tech reactor ed barracks. The game is balanced aronud build times of things like marauders and building cost.

Also, I *hate* the idea of holograms all the time. Building placement should be difficult. As zerg, I have single tech structures yes, but it means they are vulnerable to sniping. Placement can't impede flow of my units, so I can get in and out of my bass quickly. Having things that you can screw up on like building placement differentiate good players from great players. MKP is a good example of this. His ability to get so much production out and not have it bottleneck or anything is a display of high ability.

Also, limiting production on terran is a balance measure. 1 marine can kill 2 zerglings with tiny bits of micro, and possibly 3 if done very well. 1 marine if microed perfectly can kill 1 zealot. 2 is way easier. 1 marauder with conc shells and 1 marine will clean up if mircroed against small amounts. The point is to keep terran from getting too big too fast, because terran is the hardest to break because of mules, high building HP, having multiple production structures, etc.

On a side note, if you get tech reactors, I am going mutas every game, and going to just suicide to kill every single one off.

On October 17 2012 12:55 ledarsi wrote:
The core problem with terran is their new tech tree. Barracks-->Factory-->Starport and your tech tree is complete. It takes literally 3 minutes, and costs very little. Consequently, terran high tech units have to be comparable (or at least survivable) against low tech zerg and protoss players, earlier in their tech tree. The long and the short of it is, they have to suck to be at all fair.

Bottom line- Terran needs more tech structures that they need to build, and needs to spend more resources and time on teching. Then we can start talking about serious buffs to units like tanks.

Units like broodlords (and to some extent infestors) take more time and resources to even start to get, and cost way more per supply than almost anything else in the game. That is the reason they are so strong. Terran and protoss need units that are powerful and cheap on supply. Such as a reaver or 2 supply tank. In order to get someone to split their army from deathball mode, you need enough units to actually make multiple forces of effective fighting strength.

Just for starters, let's make Factories cost 200 minerals, and make siege mode cost 200m/200g, and take longer to research. And buff sieged tank damage considerably. And put some tech requirements on some Starport units other than just a tech lab, like a Science Facility for Ravens. And BUFF the units which have had their time and resource requirements significantly increased.

On October 17 2012 13:20 ledarsi wrote:
MateShade, I said in my post that they cost a lot per supply. The fact they cost relatively little supply supports that assertion. High resource cost and lower supply cost allows a large army to have more resources invested in it, acting all at one time.

On October 17 2012 10:52 Zombo Joe wrote:
The best way to fix it is let terran salvage their addons.

That way they tech switch easier instead of having to lift 20 building and find enough room to land and build the new addon.

better players are rewarded by not having to salvage.

Ez pz

On October 17 2012 10:52 Zombo Joe wrote:
The best way to fix it is let terran salvage their addons.

That way they tech switch easier instead of having to lift 20 building and find enough room to land and build the new addon.

better players are rewarded by not having to salvage.

Ez pz

On October 17 2012 11:36 Zombo Joe wrote:
Then why is heart of the swarm coming out?

Literally everything is for bad players.

If it were up to me I would introduce a 24 unit max selection and use that modified movement mod. But hey Joey just can't play a game where you have to use more than 1 hotkey for his entire army.

On October 17 2012 09:34 Zombo Joe wrote:


That would be really nice if it was true.

If it were true Terrans shouldn't be entering the late game feeling like they are fucked.