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Russian Federation216 Posts
Hi teamliquid, i've just got an idea how to fix terrans lategame issues with production:
Here's the basics, how each race make T1 units in lategame:
Z - inject, make
P - build warpgates, make
T - build rax, place them with techlab or reactor, make
And how each race switches production from (example) ground to air:
Z: make spire + greater spire, which also do upgrades (second spire do upgrades too and serve as backup)
P: make mass stargates and add second cybercore
T: make mass starports, add techlabs/reactors, add second armory
And here's the problem, because after u place enough rax (to supply your losses) you should upgrade them and only after that you can make units
So here's my propositions how blizz can improve this situation:
#1: show rax(fact/starport) hologram with techlab attached, but allow to build if techlab overlaps with something
so terrans can now place them faster, dont need to care about "oh, could i attach lab after that?"
#2: add ability to queue lab/reactor while building raxes - is also speedup coming into lategame.
you know this state of game where zerg adds+2 macro hatcheries and toss adds +10 warpgates in a row and terran should carefully place 10 rax and do labs/reactor
^ NOTE: this is just cosmetic and mostly improve players below ML
and also placing your lategame raxes is not skillful, no one will ever say OMG OMG LOOK HOW HE PLACED HIS ADDITIONAL TEN STARPORTS, SOOO AWESOME
Now about gamechanging:
#3: i think blizz should add techlabed reactor (from wol campaign), make it 50/50/50 and add ability to upgrade to it (or just build/queue it) and make it upgrade from engineering bay (instead of useless Neosteel Frame) like 100-100 100 sec
mechanic is:
i research techlabed reactors
rax without add-on -> 50/50/50 to techlabed reactor add-on
rax with techlab -> 25/25/50 to TR-addon
rax with reactor -> 5 seconds of transition animation
building rax -> queue 50/50/50 techlabed reactor add-on
Why this is not bad:
- increasing production abilities after upgrade is well-known, it is warpgate mechanic
- upgrade from bay makes it non-abusable at early game
- there's many states about terrans weakness at late
Why this is good:
- as a ML terran i believe most lack of terrans weak in lategame is way longer production establishing than Z/P, not the just making units without warp or mass larva
- taking gamers attention from questions like "what is better ideal techlab/reactor ratio for this game?" to more important (and more enjoyable for viewers)
- care about low-leagues players, where bronze zerg can press ARMY BUTTON or protoss can build 40 gates and warp 40 zealots "terran does not simply make 40 barracks" ©
TL;DR making establishing production for T easer+faster+safer is a good idea
if you have corrections to my awful grammatics, please send me PM :<
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I think one of the good things about taeja is that he makes more production facilities than needed.
Also, don't forget the army supply can be much higher for terran, due to mules.
I honestly think anything involving techlab and reactor in 1 is gamebreaking ):
edit: sorry, forgot i was in hots thread, my post can be disregarded.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On October 16 2012 22:33 Yorbon wrote:
I think one of the good things about taeja is that he makes more production facilities than needed.
Also, don't forget the army supply can be much higher for terran, due to mules.
I honestly think anything involving techlab and reactor in 1 is gamebreaking ):
edit: sorry, forgot i was in hots thread, my post can be disregarded.
Army supply is high for zerrg also due to spine crawlers and not needing as many workers late game (cause of bank), same goes for toss.
I don't really like this idea though, tech reactors'd be pretty overpowered I think.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
uh, i dunno - probably its me posting in wrong forum.
about gamebreaking techlabed reactor - i dont think so, dont forget that now fully functional rax cost is
175 minerals (more than warpgate) 25 gas (for t1 building) 90 (seconds) and very large building placement size (~3x5) which is not comparable even with warpgates
same with factories and starports, beautiful addon mechanic now just slowing terran at late, where T should carefully place wait ~60 seconds, add add-on and wait ~35 seconds to get fully functional rax
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I am sorry, but what you are suggesting is speeding up the game even more and that is the wrong way to do it. It is MUCH better to equalize all three races again by removing all of the racially specific production speed boosts, i.e. Reactor, Chronoboost, Warp Gate, Larva Inject, MULE. The MULE isnt a production speed boost, but since Larva Inject and Chronoboost are used to boost the economy of Zerg and Protoss it has to go as well.
"More more more" is oftentimes worse than "less less less" and here it is clearly the case, because these different speed boosts allow a different production speed for the races at different times. Beating a Zerg in the lategame is kinda hard, because they have basically unlimited amounts of larvae stockpiled and can rebuild their army in one round of production, whereas a Terran could only build as many high tech units as he has production facilities (and they require space ... lots of it).
Not being able to "double produce" tanks is one of the reasons, why mech isnt as popular / viable as it was in BW. There are other reasons, but this is one of them, which is given each time someone goes mech and the commentators say something about the Siege Tanks he cant reproduce quickly enough. So this really is one of the issues for HotS due to the claim of the devs that they want to make mech viable again.
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Not having larva inject wouldn't "slow down zerg" it would outright murder it. Killing a single line of drones would make it to where zerg could not recover, because it would take 3 times as long to re saturate.
Tech reactors are horrendously overpowered. The entire premise behind a tech lab is a balanced tradeoff. The whole point is to force either picking better units or more basic units. Tech reactor tanks would drown opponents. Early mass marauder would be worse than roaches. Why? Because marauders take a lot of damage, and you could speed up production *more* than double because you wouldn't need all the tech labs, and you could effectively work off 2 tech reactor ed barracks. The game is balanced aronud build times of things like marauders and building cost.
Also, I *hate* the idea of holograms all the time. Building placement should be difficult. As zerg, I have single tech structures yes, but it means they are vulnerable to sniping. Placement can't impede flow of my units, so I can get in and out of my bass quickly. Having things that you can screw up on like building placement differentiate good players from great players. MKP is a good example of this. His ability to get so much production out and not have it bottleneck or anything is a display of high ability.
Also, limiting production on terran is a balance measure. 1 marine can kill 2 zerglings with tiny bits of micro, and possibly 3 if done very well. 1 marine if microed perfectly can kill 1 zealot. 2 is way easier. 1 marauder with conc shells and 1 marine will clean up if mircroed against small amounts. The point is to keep terran from getting too big too fast, because terran is the hardest to break because of mules, high building HP, having multiple production structures, etc.
On a side note, if you get tech reactors, I am going mutas every game, and going to just suicide to kill every single one off.
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This is just such a silly idea, it m,makes things less unique easyer and involves less choices for the player, plus it doesn't only effect the late game. Terran late game sucks because T max armies are the hardest to get(well maybe nott bio, but getting allot og gohst is hard) AND suck the most. Im my eyes terran should have the best maxed army but have the worst production
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 17 2012 00:21 Pigzyf5 wrote:
This is just such a silly idea, it m,makes things less unique easyer and involves less choices for the player, plus it doesn't only effect the late game. Terran late game sucks because T max armies are the hardest to get(well maybe nott bio, but getting allot og gohst is hard) AND suck the most. Im my eyes terran should have the best maxed army but have the worst production
They don't have the best maxed army.
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T doesn't have a lategame production problem. Making it a little easier to macro mass raxes / factories is a non-issue really as it already isn't too hard to do.
The only lategame issue for T imo is they lack a gas dump making their mineral/gas balance much harder to maintain then for other races. Zerg has infestors and useful gas heavy units like broodlords/ultra's which are useful in any match. Protoss has HT/archon which are good in any match. T however has only the raven as an effective gas dump but it's quite an useless unit in TvP and not even so good in other matchups. Too many times you see terran lose the lategame with a couple thousand gas and just nothing to do with it which is imo an ugly design of the game at the moment. Of course you can avoid a gas pileup by careful eco management and you should always try that with any race but having a use for it if it does pile up is pivotal for keeping some balance on lower levels and even higher levels I think.
The raven should be fixed to always at least be useful or the costs for an other unit, for example the ghost should be retweaked to function as a gas dump. Changing the ghost to 200m 100g was one of the worst mistakes blizzard ever made.
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On October 16 2012 23:26 ZenZombie wrote:
Not having larva inject wouldn't "slow down zerg" it would outright murder it. Killing a single line of drones would make it to where zerg could not recover, because it would take 3 times as long to re saturate.
Not if there are no MULEs and no Reactors and no Chronoboosts. You shouldnt forget that the attackers come with far less forces than they come now and this would make static defenses rather powerful again. Obviously - without larva inject - you might not have a Queen to defend but could go for a much earlier macro hatchery. Having those Queens could be useful for spreading creep and as air defense ... you just get them much later. In any case: it worked in BW without the speedups, so why shouldnt it work in SC2?
With a slower economy and production the expensive units (or rather all units) are more valuable and are probably taken care of much more, which would emphasize repairing for Terran mech and air. This is a very much underused skill in many progamer matches, because the speed of the game is so high. Slowing it down will give Terrans this small edge again to make their units powerful and would also allow for the positional play which bunkers were intended for.
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On October 17 2012 01:45 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:21 Pigzyf5 wrote:
This is just such a silly idea, it m,makes things less unique easyer and involves less choices for the player, plus it doesn't only effect the late game. Terran late game sucks because T max armies are the hardest to get(well maybe nott bio, but getting allot og gohst is hard) AND suck the most. Im my eyes terran should have the best maxed army but have the worst production They don't have the best maxed army.
If by "they" you mean Terran, then yes they do. The maxed, high tech, late-late game Terran army is the strongest in the game but also the hardest to get to as well as remake.
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Terran army is the strongest... and you can build like 180-190 supply army vs protoss that always need to have probes ( no mules...) and that means 140-160 army supply.
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think that would be totally gamebreaking
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I do think that it's obvious that Terrran bases need the most square footage. I wouldn't be against tech reactors if they cost enough, say, 200/100 each. Otherwise, no. the zerg/protoss macro mechanics aren't an 'advantage', they're something that costs micro in order to keep up with the terran: Who only needs to place the buildings well in the first place so he can build his macro addon once and never worry about it again. Why should you get to double your production without building another building when no other race can do that.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On October 17 2012 03:43 Robotix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 01:45 Targe wrote:On October 17 2012 00:21 Pigzyf5 wrote:
This is just such a silly idea, it m,makes things less unique easyer and involves less choices for the player, plus it doesn't only effect the late game. Terran late game sucks because T max armies are the hardest to get(well maybe nott bio, but getting allot og gohst is hard) AND suck the most. Im my eyes terran should have the best maxed army but have the worst production They don't have the best maxed army. If by "they" you mean Terran, then yes they do. The maxed, high tech, late-late game Terran army is the strongest in the game but also the hardest to get to as well as remake.
That army you just mentioned doesn't exist, you're effectively referring to Raven/BattleCruiser/Viking with 3/3 upgrades (Which I believe to be Terran's Ultimate late game army) however that happens once in maybe 100 games. Their typical lategame army is either 3/3 mech with Ghost or Ravens, or MMMG with maybe Raven support, MMMG is weaker than the Protoss lategame deathball and mech is a good match for Broodlord/Infestor. However lategame Zerg and Protoss is achieved far more easily than Terran lategame so we rarely see it in comparison to Zerg and Protoss.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
Ummm, :okayface:, i just dont understand - you all say "techreactors will be imbalanced" and after that you say "terrans remax his army and transit much slower than Z/P..."
(also best maxed army is 3-3-3 carrier/Mothership with beautiful vortex and recall)
and strange no one talks about queue and graphical add-ons when placing buildings
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On October 17 2012 06:50 Fen1kz wrote:
Ummm, :okayface:, i just dont understand - you all say "techreactors will be imbalanced" and after that you say "terrans remax his army and transit much slower than Z/P..."
(also best maxed army is 3-3-3 carrier/Mothership with beautiful vortex and recall)
and strange no one talks about queue and graphical add-ons when placing buildings
Terran is supposed to remax slower than the other races; a maxed Terran late game army is generally stronger than the other races.
And 3-3-3 Carrier/Mothership is a bad composition.
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On October 16 2012 22:37 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 22:33 Yorbon wrote:
I think one of the good things about taeja is that he makes more production facilities than needed.
Also, don't forget the army supply can be much higher for terran, due to mules.
I honestly think anything involving techlab and reactor in 1 is gamebreaking ):
edit: sorry, forgot i was in hots thread, my post can be disregarded. Army supply is high for zerrg also due to spine crawlers and not needing as many workers late game (cause of bank), same goes for toss. I don't really like this idea though, tech reactors'd be pretty overpowered I think.
Ehh, it's not common practice for Protoss to sac Probes, only in extreme mined out situations. Zerg tends to fluctuate because they have a very sacrificial attitude to their bases, so it's dependent on harass vs replenishment. Terran do actually purposefully destroy their SCVs if they Mule out. Zerg does have the 200+ supply trick though, which should be utlized more often so Blizzard can patch it. Kill unmorphed Drones past 200.
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While I believe Protoss lategate is the strongest with so many amazing T3 units
I agree that terran needs increase late-game production and the mechanics (chronoboost, larva inject, and mule) should be altered. I believe the main problem is the lack of choice if you don't use these mechanics you can't reach the higher leagues.
I would be fine with tech-reactor if
- increase cost to 100/100
- Dropped by Orbital For 100 energy (requires upgrade at armory for use)
- Takes 45-60 seconds to deploy
- Dose not double produce tech-lab units
This would
give access to more varied production changing it as needed without allowing for double production of everything.
Acts as a choice instead of mule and scan.
Increase early game choices.
I think this is acceptable and would make terran late-game production slightly more bearable.
Next just to address the post on units being more valuable and making repair a more used skill.
I would love to see tanks get
- Supply 2
- Cost 200/150
- Siege change time set to 6 seconds from 4
- Siege damage increase
- Siege splash damage increased
- Siege mode research time 60
- Siege tank production time increased 60 seconds
- Seige tank upgrade at armory for +1 range
- Speed 2 from 2.25
This makes Siege tanks stronger when deployed better space control over all and keeps them super deadly late game you can have more so sprinkling them about becomes easier but the loss of a tank is a bigger deal do to cost and time to replace as well the decreased mobility(siege duration, and movement speed) would make it harder to be reactive so you would need to already be in place before the engagement. Siege tanks would become even more of a positional unit and be more plentiful in the terran army.
These changes make the tech-reactor fair, and make slower production for all complain invalid.
You don't have to slow the game down less is not always more. Sometimes a unit just needs to become harder to replace not in invested resources but in invested time. Adding objectives and choices is much better then removing variation, and that is what you do when you remove Chrono, inject, and mule. Chrono can be used to alter timings get faster upgrades and tech or just to speed up economy or unit production using chrono boost wisely can make or break a protoss in masters, and the choice to creep over larva early is a big investment while Muleing over a scan may lose you the game. These are all choices brought on by these macro mechanics. The only one missing the choice is warpgate and I have been writing up a tread on that for about a month now. The only complain I have with these macro mechanics is these isn't enough choice because In the case of larva you basically use it all game if you never chorono you probably won't win and muleing is necessity that no terran can live without.
I think that an additional macro choice for terran would actually be worth while to see you can have more money or more production an interesting choice and it would make new directions for play because (theorycrafting here)
Go the normal barracks tech-lap move the factory onto the tech-lab skip the first mule drop tech reactor onto factory rush siege tech while being able to still double produce the hellions this would compile into more choices for the choice burdened terran players and make the early game even more hell. (I love this) This would counteract the new scouting power that protoss holds with no hallucination research because you could still be tricky with your timings skipping mules could be a bluff or you could be trying to eek out production advantage for mid-game.
On another note you would need to add similar mechanics to zerg and protoss.
Preferable another spell for queen that make larva inject a choice (this could also be a buff to creep or another way to access increased larva aside from a macro hatch.
And for protoss either a new nexus ability accessible in mid game or a siphon energy ability some sort of new way to utilize the nexus energy.
This would lead to a more exiting game in my opinion and alllow for more varried choices on the terrans part.
Feedback is Appreciated! :D (sorry for the bits of rambling mass but my point is there)
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On October 17 2012 01:45 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2012 00:21 Pigzyf5 wrote:
This is just such a silly idea, it m,makes things less unique easyer and involves less choices for the player, plus it doesn't only effect the late game. Terran late game sucks because T max armies are the hardest to get(well maybe nott bio, but getting allot og gohst is hard) AND suck the most. Im my eyes terran should have the best maxed army but have the worst production They don't have the best maxed army.
Sorry but I think everyone unanimously agrees that Terran can make a conposition to beat any composition you could throw at them. Terrans problem is not having a weaker army, it's getting that army out when they need it. Which is arguable whether it needs changes or not
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EPT
