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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On December 12 2012 08:09 Bagi wrote: Even as a terran player I think PDD blocking immortal shots would be way overpowered. I like the projectile idea though, if they could make it somehow sensibly without making PDD affect it. why? PDD stops all projectile attacks in the game | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden529 Posts
Since you're going mech, you can scan a lot and see what the protoss is doing, and react to it. I havn't lost a single game when im maxed against a protoss, because they dont have time to make 30 f*cking tempest if you constantly put presure with banshees and helions. It is a bit tought to get maxed though, but i just have to find a solid build, so far it's going decent. Widow mines defenetly help out. And if, somehow the protoss has 30 tempest you'll be on 6 bases with 3k banked gas which you can do whatever you want with. I'm high master in both wol and hots, so this apparantly works above bronze league. I do agree that mech is weaker in TvP than in TvT and TvZ still. | ||
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fuzzylogic44
Canada2633 Posts
On December 12 2012 08:17 Zergrusher wrote: why? PDD stops all projectile attacks in the game Immortals don't shoot projectiles | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
but they can be changed to be. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On December 12 2012 08:57 A.Alm wrote: I go for banshee/thors. Using helions to kill workers. Since you're going mech, you can scan a lot and see what the protoss is doing, and react to it. I havn't lost a single game when im maxed against a protoss, because they dont have time to make 30 f*cking tempest if you constantly put presure with banshees and helions. It is a bit tought to get maxed though, but i just have to find a solid build, so far it's going decent. Widow mines defenetly help out. And if, somehow the protoss has 30 tempest you'll be on 6 bases with 3k banked gas which you can do whatever you want with. I'm high master in both wol and hots, so this apparantly works above bronze league. I do agree that mech is weaker in TvP than in TvT and TvZ still. Good tosses wont let you do this, trust me. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden529 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:07 Breach_hu wrote: Good tosses wont let you do this, trust me. Thors we're really good in WoL when they didn't have an enery bar. in HoTs they don't have an energy bar, and widowmines excist plus a bunch of other terran buffs. Thorzain did a good job killing the best protoss players in the world using thors, and now in HoTs protoss players don't have any new earlygame agression so getting to thors shouldnt be much different in HoTs than in Wol. | ||
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mannerless
Brazil86 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:12 A.Alm wrote: Thors we're really good in WoL when they didn't have an enery bar. in HoTs they don't have an energy bar, and widowmines excist plus a bunch of other terran buffs. Thorzain did a good job killing the best protoss players in the world using thors, and now in HoTs protoss players don't have any new earlygame agression so getting to thors shouldnt be much different in HoTs than in Wol. Void Rays are very good vs Thors now | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:12 A.Alm wrote: Thors we're really good in WoL when they didn't have an enery bar. in HoTs they don't have an energy bar, and widowmines excist plus a bunch of other terran buffs. Thorzain did a good job killing the best protoss players in the world using thors, and now in HoTs protoss players don't have any new earlygame agression so getting to thors shouldnt be much different in HoTs than in Wol. But you forget, that tosses got an immortal buff, tempest, MSC to hold early aggression, which means greedier play. It is different than WoL. Much different. With good flank or split even voidrays shreds thors cost by cost with their new ability. Yes thors are really good againts "usual" toss compositions, zealotstalkerimmortal etc. but againts a new era, HotS composition which contains heavy immortal, heavy air forces with the mindset of counters and constant poke, mech is just in disadvantage as the game goes on, which is sad, it should be the opposite (imo). You have to be really aggressive and you have to pressure all game long and with this you are really fragile and you have to do damage. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:12 A.Alm wrote: Thors we're really good in WoL when they didn't have an enery bar. in HoTs they don't have an energy bar, and widowmines excist plus a bunch of other terran buffs. Thorzain did a good job killing the best protoss players in the world using thors, and now in HoTs protoss players don't have any new earlygame agression so getting to thors shouldnt be much different in HoTs than in Wol. Thors weren't good because of no energy bar, they were good with 250mm cannon on a timer. Immortals still destroyed them without it. Good players are going to use tempest to attack your mech without getting attacked back. Mech is hard-countered by well-microed tempests. People that are reporting beating tempests with mech are playing 1aers who don't move away from vikings and thors. There's no reason you should ever hit a tempest with any mechanical unit if the Protoss engages you before you're sieged at their base. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On December 12 2012 10:20 iEchoic wrote: Thors weren't good because of no energy bar, they were good with 250mm cannon on a timer. Immortals still destroyed them without it. Good players are going to use tempest to attack your mech without getting attacked back. Mech is hard-countered by well-microed tempests. People that are reporting beating tempests with mech are playing 1aers who don't move away from vikings and thors. There's no reason you should ever hit a tempest with any mechanical unit if the Protoss engages you before you're sieged at their base. And if they are adding Carriers to the mix, you can just leave the game. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
If you are going to make a unit that is so expensive and has such huge issues with mobility, being hard countered, and not being able to fight other endgame armies at all, it needs raw strength to compensate. Tanks cannot engage the enemy (they have to be attacked into), and if the enemy does attack, the tanks are completely incapable of retreating. And if you do lose the tanks, then you can't remake them quickly. Yet despite all these problems, tanks can still get straight up beaten by units like chargelots, stalkers, bio, or low tech zerg units. They're just weak units. The best thing that could be done for the tank would be to make it 2 supply and reduce the gas cost to 100, no other change required. A big army of tanks just got 50% stronger, but now costs considerably more to build. Failing that, tanks need a large damage buff. | ||
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Zergrusher
United States562 Posts
On December 12 2012 11:41 ledarsi wrote: The other part of the problem is that tanks are no longer the best endgame army. In fact they are one of the worst, while simultaneously being the least mobile, and the most expensive. On a per supply basis, tanks cost more than almost anything, with a few exceptions (most notably infestors). However they are less mobile, and weaker per supply than units like tempests, carriers, broodlords, etc. If you are going to make a unit that is so expensive and has such huge issues with mobility, being hard countered, and not being able to fight other endgame armies at all. Tanks cannot engage the enemy (they have to be attacked into), and if the enemy does attack, the tanks are completely incapable of retreating. And if you do lose the tanks, then you can't remake them quickly. Yet despite all these problems, tanks can still get straight up beaten by units like chargelots, stalkers, bio, or low tech zerg units. They're just weak units. The best thing that could be done for the tank would be to make it 2 supply and only cost 100 gas, no other change required. A big army of tanks just got 50% stronger, but now costs considerably more to build. Failing that, tanks need a large damage buff. Yeah tanks need a supply/cost decrease. Also a upgrade scaling buff( that apparently was concidered a "bug" by blizzard) | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
As a Protoss player, I guess I'd appreciate it if colossi were buffed, but I think it would be bad for the game because colossi tend to a encourage slow, passive, turtling play style. I'd much rather see templar play or stargate play encouraged because those styles are more fun. Particularly in TvP, SC2 mech produces really awful games where Terran sits in his base till maxed, occasionally running blue flame hellions around that seem to kill either 30 probes or no probes at all. Protoss can't really do anything to the turtling Terran, so he chases the hellions around while building T3 air. 25 minutes in, there's a big fight, and the game ends. People long for BW positional tank play with tank lines crawling across the map, but even tho the pushes were fun, let's not forget that Terran turtling to 200/200 with 3/3 mech upgrades wasn't exactly thrilling. | ||
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klops
United States674 Posts
On December 12 2012 12:16 kcdc wrote: 25 minutes in, there's a big fight, and the game ends. that's because this is the problem. | ||
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Rife
Australia12 Posts
Without mobility I don't see how Mech will ever be viable. Which is why I think air will be the answer. I see this coming down to a few things: 1. The immobility of mech ground forces. Any opponent who scouts properly will easily avoid heavily defended positions and attack weak points, do damage and get out before any mech army can respond. 2. The above becomes a huge factor due to Terran needing 4+ bases to make a mech viable. 200 supply worth of mech units is simply not enough to defend such a huge area without significant losses to a smart enemy. 3. Even perfectly defended positions become useless if your opponent simply chooses to expand and abuse your immobility. This forces mech to either keep expanding to match and spread the line of defense even thinner or lose to your opponents obscene economic advantage gained by being able to expand without pressure. It's been said in previous pages that mech gives up mobility for firepower and mech simply lacks firepower. This matches my conclusions regardless of the HoTS changes. The hidden issue is also that even if mech packed a huge firepower punch, your opponent can still just avoid engaging your mech army which leaves you with a slow moving force and them without the need to fight. If you then decide to take the fight to your enemy and move out, you'll lose bases/tech to small mobile enemy forces and still be facing a formidable enemy army. I think heavy banshee play or upgraded medivac hellbat drops will need to feature heavily in all TvP mech play in order to be even semi viable. The question then becomes: can terran balance gas well enough to gain early/mid game harass potential without sacrificing later game mech army strength. If that is even possible, will it be worth it considering bio with light mech/ghost can be so effective with so much less hassle. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
On December 12 2012 12:16 kcdc wrote: Do we really want more mech play? I understand that players always want more and stronger options, but doesn't bio usually produce a more active, entertaining game? As a Protoss player, I guess I'd appreciate it if colossi were buffed, but I think it would be bad for the game because colossi tend to a encourage slow, passive, turtling play style. I'd much rather see templar play or stargate play encouraged because those styles are more fun. Particularly in TvP, SC2 mech produces really awful games where Terran sits in his base till maxed, occasionally running blue flame hellions around that seem to kill either 30 probes or no probes at all. Protoss can't really do anything to the turtling Terran, so he chases the hellions around while building T3 air. 25 minutes in, there's a big fight, and the game ends. People long for BW positional tank play with tank lines crawling across the map, but even tho the pushes were fun, let's not forget that Terran turtling to 200/200 with 3/3 mech upgrades wasn't exactly thrilling. That's because this describes no BW mech game, ever. While you are correct that a maxed out, fully upgraded mech army is extremely strong, and the terran wants to acquire it, if you try to just turtle and build it you are going to get completely destroyed. Go try it. A protoss will murder you. Or they'll just take the whole map and throw endless hordes of dragoons at you and laugh as your tank count gradually drops to nothing. You have to be constantly about the map with vultures killing probes and scouting, and even engaging dragoons and replacing tactically positioned minefields. And then there's the tanks. The fact that mech is slow means you have to have units everywhere, as they can't just run over to wherever they are needed. This means there is ACTION EVERYWHERE. Furthermore, you are saying that you just mass Protoss T3 air, and then 25 minutes in, there's a big fight, and the game ends? What do you think the entire point of asking for mech to be functional is? The entire point of this entire discussion is that turtling for 25 minutes and the battle ending in 5 seconds is ridiculous, and silly gameplay. But that's exactly what colossi are best at, and therefore that is the kind of battle Protoss wants. If both sides have positional units capable of beating larger armies if well positioned and supported, then you have to have a presence in many locations, but are beatable at each location by a slightly larger group, or a group containing the right units. Rather than a single giant rock-paper-scissors battle, there are hundreds of smaller ones all over the map over the course of a game. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
On December 12 2012 12:16 kcdc wrote: Do we really want more mech play? I understand that players always want more and stronger options, but doesn't bio usually produce a more active, entertaining game? As a Protoss player, I guess I'd appreciate it if colossi were buffed, but I think it would be bad for the game because colossi tend to a encourage slow, passive, turtling play style. I'd much rather see templar play or stargate play encouraged because those styles are more fun. Particularly in TvP, SC2 mech produces really awful games where Terran sits in his base till maxed, occasionally running blue flame hellions around that seem to kill either 30 probes or no probes at all. Protoss can't really do anything to the turtling Terran, so he chases the hellions around while building T3 air. 25 minutes in, there's a big fight, and the game ends. People long for BW positional tank play with tank lines crawling across the map, but even tho the pushes were fun, let's not forget that Terran turtling to 200/200 with 3/3 mech upgrades wasn't exactly thrilling. Terran is really going to need something stronger than pure bio to survive in HOTS, though. In WoL we see it's just on the razor's edge of balance, with bio just barely being strong enough to beat a lategame P army, assuming perfect control from the T and imperfect control from the P. In HOTS, P is going to have even more powerful options to deal with bio (time warp), better harass options, better air, etc. Honestly I don't think marine/marauder/medivac is going to be able to handle storm+collosus+timewarp+forcefield. I think if Biomech were possible, that would create the best games. You'd still get some cool positioning stuff, but also drop harass, mobility etc. Contrary to other posters, I think the tank should be even more supply heavy & expensive, but MUCH more powerful. Like 4 supply & 200/200, but do original tank damage (70 flat), and have vehicle upgrades do more. | ||
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nimbus99
Canada194 Posts
On December 12 2012 10:25 Breach_hu wrote: And if they are adding Carriers to the mix, you can just leave the game. But you can switch into heavy viking in an instant because there is only 1 upgrade for air and ground. Not to mention, the new thor transformation will be buffed (right now its a tiny bit better than ordinary air attack against big air units) | ||
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