EPTWhy Entomb should NOT be redesigned. - Page 4
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Wafflelisk
Canada1061 Posts
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On October 13 2012 18:28 Evangelist wrote: Entomb would be awesome if it worked on units! Working on minerals just makes it.. rubbish. Protoss has enough harassment options anyway. On October 15 2012 04:49 RifleCow wrote: Oracle would serve better as a mutli-functional denial unit. It will have the ability to place those cubes on minerals and structures. You can place it on minerals to stop mineral mining, or place it on buildings to prevent them from producing or detecting. Absolutly agree, said that a while ago: 1. Make the oracle into a mobile shieldbattery , wich can attack while moving , like the voidray and can suck up slowly enemy hp and can save it as shieldenergy , wich can be supplyd later on to own units , to regenerate their shields.And if it gets emp-d it loses all of its saved shieldenergy. 2. It also shoud have the ability to generate a field like a pylon and to teleport an friendly unit , wich is in the field , to another point in the field.If you overlap the fields of some oracles than you can also chainteleport in short steps over longer distance. 3 And entomp shoud take 2-3 secs , in wich the oracle must stay in attacking range(think of it as a beam wich changes the dimension of the target like in star trek) and shoud be working on friendly and enemy units and structures. And make it that the target disapiers and you must get detection , to see the green bubble and destroy it. So that you can hide own units and buildings for a short time , when the enemy is attacking , or hide (single) enemy units vortex like , or buildings to slow down their production/upgrades.If you target minerals you can target only 1 mineral patch at the time. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On October 11 2012 18:41 Fragile51 wrote: Yeah agreed fully. I don't think entomb is a bad spell or even concept, but it's far too easily executed right now. What if you had to individually click every mineral patch that you wanted to entomb? That sounds like a more challenging way to implement it. Yeah if it does stay then they HAVE to make that change, atleast then it would then take a little effort instead of none. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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Startyr
Scotland188 Posts
It seems the oracle is far too specialised, it is only really useful in an opponents base and once they know you have it its easy to defend against. Every other form of harass is multipurpose and the units can be used for other things and can have very different results based on the execution of attacker and defender. The oracle could perhaps also be used as a spotter for the tempest, however is it worth it just for that with observers and hallucinations? | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On October 15 2012 06:58 osiris17 wrote: Time your entombs strategically and it gets interesting.... all this community does is whine, never thinking for yourselves to come up with better strategies. Just whine more. Their is a difference between whine and comming up with own ideas. Their is a huge amount of complains about the oracle being 1 dimensional, boring to watch, not microintensive/ to easy to use-to little difference in use between pros and amateurs , being only an better detector (wich is not anymore true after patch 6). But their is a very mysterious thing going on between blizzard and the oracle . They refuse to talk about entomb on their own beta-forum. Dustin Browder said in one of his interviews about creepspread , that many people complaind to him about the idea of creep spread at the beginning , and that he was happy that he didnt listen to them and implemented the idea of creep spread in the game. I think , for them , entomb is the "new creep spread". They think people complaining now , but if they play more with it in the released game , than they woud be glad that entomb stayed the way it is now. But its totally not!!! Creep spread was an good idea wich rewardet apm with vision. Entomb is an easy to use , but boring to watch ability for the casuals. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
On October 15 2012 07:13 StandAloneComplex wrote: Their is a difference between whine and comming up with own ideas. Their is a huge amount of complains about the oracle being 1 dimensional, boring to watch, not microintensive/ to easy to use-to little difference in use between pros and amateurs , being only an better detector (wich is not anymore true after patch 6). But their is a very mysteriouse thing going on between blizzard and the oracle . They refuse to talk about entomb on their own beta-forum. Dustin Browder said in one of his interviews about creepspread , that many people complaind about the idea of creep spread at the beginning by him , and that he was happy that he ignord that complains and implemented the idea of creep spread in the game. I think for them entomb is the "new creep spread". But its totally not!!! Creep spread was an good idea wich rewardet apm with vision. Entomb is an easy to use but boring to watch ability for the casuals. If you are being strategic about entomb combining it with pressure, that's hardly 1 dimensional. Micro required is irrelevant; what Entomb offers is strategy. If you use your entomb non-strategically, dumbly, like a chrono boost as one user said; then this is not as compelling; perhaps boring. This is the wrong way to use it; at least it doesn't maximize the spells potential.. The spell has more to offer. Using entomb at critical times, in a strategic way, will not be boring to watch. But the current style of Protoss forge expanding, staying very passive, and never pressuring, does not mix as strongly with entomb. Because if you simply entomb the zerg mineral while his army is not occupied, he may kill it instantly and nothing happens. Considering this, and with the addition of the mothership core recall, it is clear that Protoss should be pressuring more often. And for this I believe Naniwas gateway expand is the superior opener. As Protoss continue to forge expand, and play very passive, they continue to whine. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On October 15 2012 07:05 EleanorRIgby wrote: i think its pretty dumb that entomb can be cast even if there is turrets/spider mines,i usually put 2 turrets and a widow mine at mineral lines but the oracle just zips in entombs from the longest possible distance and only get 1-2 turret hits, only shield damage. if you think about the fact that the Oracle is a 150/150/3 unit that has basically only one role, it gotta at least be good in doing it. considering how much one-dimensional the oracle is, it's harass is actually not that strong. I mean, If hellions could only attack workers, wouldn't you think it's damage should get a buff? PS: yeah, I know you can use the oracle to spot too. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
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Crisco
1170 Posts
Or it shouldn't prevent mining, but damage miners that mine from the affected minerals. Or make it target 1 or a few mineral patches and kills any miner that fully mines from it. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On October 11 2012 21:33 emythrel wrote: + Show Spoiler + Or they simply disagree. Just because you agree with someone's point doesn't mean everyone else has to or they are wrong or too proud to admit it. Its the same as me going on a rant about why religion is wrong, making very valid points (OP makes valid points. I happen to disagree with his conclusion) and then saying "if you still believe in god, you are just too proud to admit i'm right". It is an OPINION, not a fact. I do not have to agree with anything you tell me is true. I think the idea of the entomb is very interesting, when I first heard about it I imagined players darting in and out of the base entombing individual mineral stacks a bit like a banshee darts in and out killing workers. That sounds exciting to me, a careful and elegant dance trying to hit the right patches (the ones with 3 in sync miners on them, close patches instead of far ones etc) while not losing the oracle to static D or units. I don't think that seeing worker die is exciting most of the time, banshee harass is exciting not because of the deaths but because of the dance. When a banshee gets in and kills 20 workers because all the units are elsewhere on the map and can't defend it is not exciting. Just as when a banshee waltzes in to a protoss base and they have no robo or forge and thus no detection is not exciting. With entomb reworked to be a low energy cost, single stack entomb, it will bring new depth to the game and I believe excitement will follow. The damage done by it will be noticeable by the difference in income or army size, things dont need to die for it to be obvious damage. One of the most obvious ways to damage someone already in WoL without killing anything is to ebay/pylon block an expansion, no workers died but everyone knows that just cost the opponent time and money and he will have to make it up somehow. Same as when you get fake bunker rushed as zerg, you have to pull workers to stop it building, there could be 5-6 marines on the way, nothing gets killed, we as spectators know there are no marines coming and we know he lost mining time. Entomb serves the same purpose but has an even more noticeable effect since you are physically stopping the workers from mining, it forces a new dynamic on the game that doesn't rely on killing workers..... that is the whole point of the spell. To have a similar effect to hellion/phoenix/banshee harass but without just being the same boring, run in, kill workers, get out. The only time that kind of harass is exciting is when 10-20 workers die to a single hellion volley.... line em up. No one ever said that phoenix's picking up 2 workers and killing them was exciting, its not even that noticeable on how the game progresses. The excitement isn't in the killing of workers, it is in the skill used to do it. In the skill of defending it. Like when MvP just perfectly puts up a turret and it finishes the second a DT walks in to range. The excitement is in whether he will see the DT walking in to his base and raise the depot, its not in him having no scans ready, no army at home and 4 DT's about to wrecking 40 SCV's p.s If you dont agree with me after reading this post, then good for you. Debate and differing ideas are how things improve and we learn. I agree completely. The OP is right in the current assesment that the ability is too easy to use. Having the ability only work on 1 or 2 stacks I think would be pretty cool, and the oracle could go around "carpet entombing" minerals on the map. | ||
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FLiP491
United States124 Posts
(mini)Mind control: All enemy workers within AOE will follow the oracle around like a magnet: Cost x mana to activate and drain y per second mana That way especially paired w msc you could pull off some cool stuff. Esp when paired w say storm or FF. Which by the way was an example of a nice high mechanics use of entomb. Confuse: Enemy workers issued move commands in random directions when spell is activated (AOE). During big or just micro intensive battles if you could pull that off you could do some nice damage and really tax the person's apm. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
But in pvz, if you open stargate off an ffe and harass with the oracle the first entomb might halve his mineral income briefly but after that, it's 1/3 or less for a pretty short duration (queens and speedlings help the zerg clear the entombs pretty fast). It's almost negligible damage. Until the day when stargate is a stable opener in pvt, that match up isn't worth talking about. Think of the oracle like an orbital command, and entomb as a sort of anti-mule. In the early game stages, that 50 energy is precious to the terran and scanning hurts. With more bases, each mule is a lot less valuable in and of itself and scans happen a lot more often because the effect it has on their economy is negligible. Hitting an entomb is like missing out on two mules from one OC. Sucks early on, but doesn't really mean much on three bases. Protoss can't afford to build multiple oracles if all they do in the mid and late game is provide some vision, so the oracle gets pigeonholed into very specific builds that revolve around fucking with the other guy's timings in pvp, and maybe in pvz. This is not a unit you're going to see a lot, and to take it back to blizzard's stated goal of giving protoss a viable raiding option, it completely fails in that regard. The only match up that could have it as a standard is the same one that usually ends on one base. | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
-Entomb is too easy to use -The effect of entomb is not exciting -Entomb's impact is binary in that it either does full damage or no damage with no possibility to improve the effect through skill -Entomb is not cost effective -Oracle is too one-dimensional -Stargate didn't need another harass unit, robo did -Losing mining time isn't new. It's what happens when the player saves his workers from a normal raid. In other words, what is a disappointing return for any other type of worker raid is the primary objective of the oracle. | ||
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
On October 15 2012 07:27 osiris17 wrote: If you are being strategic about entomb combining it with pressure, that's hardly 1 dimensional. Micro required is irrelevant; what Entomb offers is strategy. If you use your entomb non-strategically, dumbly, like a chrono boost as one user said; then this is not as compelling; perhaps boring. This is the wrong way to use it; at least it doesn't maximize the spells potential.. The spell has more to offer. Using entomb at critical times, in a strategic way, will not be boring to watch. But the current style of Protoss forge expanding, staying very passive, and never pressuring, does not mix as strongly with entomb. Because if you simply entomb the zerg mineral while his army is not occupied, he may kill it instantly and nothing happens. Considering this, and with the addition of the mothership core recall, it is clear that Protoss should be pressuring more often. And for this I believe Naniwas gateway expand is the superior opener. As Protoss continue to forge expand, and play very passive, they continue to whine. I like this suggestion and it is a good way to get the most out of your Entomb, and I also like having something as protoss that forces more micro on their end then on yours. | ||
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K_osss
United States113 Posts
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