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Why Entomb should NOT be redesigned. - Page 3

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HeavenResign
Profile Joined April 2011
United States702 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 16:50:13
October 11 2012 16:49 GMT
#41
I have to agree with OP. I was open to Entombed, mainly because despite many pro players being unsure of the point of Entombed, Artosis loved it. But after watching it being used it seems no matter what it is a one dimensional spell, using entomb is using entomb. People give forcefields shit but at least even at the top levels of play players struggle to get optimum forcefields off, even if as people say it creates a bit of one-sided micro.

I think the original goal of the unit was silly, and so do a lot of other players. At this point with spells like Revelation, I think it'd be way better to see it become a support caster (aka having spells that don't do damage)- other people have posted lots of ideas that are actually really cool. Phase Shield was a little convoluted in purpose but I think it was on the right track in terms of the role it gave the Oracle (Void Siphon of course, is not). Of course you'd have to balance that with the mothership core but the only spell MSC has to support an actual army is recall.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 17:08:08
October 11 2012 17:07 GMT
#42
@ awesomoecalypse
If the goal was to break up the Protoss deathball it fails on all counts. It does absolutely nothing to change the army composition of the Protoss and pulls out only a tiny supply amount from the main army. A true raider for Protoss works best with the warp prism that has an actual burst damage attack would help break up the death ball.
Why?

Because the raider can be shuttled to the enemy base and kill workers. If it's something other than the HT, then it has the option of picking off units and buildings. But then it can be pulled back to defend. Because it can kill stuff fast, a small number of them can hold off larger numbers. (Although SC2 units and mechanics largely ignoring high ground/ terrain features the advantage of this will be muted.) Or they can push forward with the main army and pick off forward units or reinforcements. In other words it's a unit that can be moved all over the map doing all sorts of jobs. That breaks up the death ball.

But if it works best with a warp prism it is self-balancing. You can only control so many of them effectively at time. So if you have lots of them, you cannot control them all equally well and the player with less (assuming mirror match up) can gain advantages by controlling their smaller force better. It pushes away from composition balance to player control balance.

Zealots, HT, DT, and Reavers were heavily used as raiders in BW. HT, DT and Collosi/ Immortals in SC2 are not nearly as heavily used as raiders. Only Chargelots are extensively used for harass. Why is that? That would be far better to solve then to create such a niche unit that does nothing to change the Protoss army composition. (Plus the unit requires so little attention to manage.)
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
summerloud
Profile Joined March 2010
Austria1201 Posts
October 11 2012 17:51 GMT
#43
On October 11 2012 19:17 cpc wrote:
Have to agree I always thought that if you had to target every mineral field would be better but if the spell isn't exciting to watch then it probably is more of a problem.

Entombed seems like something that is really annoying but not particularly exciting there just is no tension.

For some reason I imagine a possibly more exciting spell (not saying this is a good idea) entomb attaching to the mineral field and if you dont destroy it in time it will send out a shockwave killing stuff as it disipates being more exciting because of added tension.


this actually seems like a good idea :o

how about these ideas:

- entomb only hits a single mineral patch, this patch changes visibly but can still be mined, but all money mined goes to the protoss player (disappears directly at the patch in a warp something or whatever). could potentially go unnoticed for a long time

- entombs creates small warpfields and all resources (gas or minerals) that are carried through these by workers disappear and go to the protoss player

- entombed minerals can still be mined but damage workers so that if you dont manually pull your workers you might lose some, especially after multiple entombs



other ideas for spells totally different than entomb but still possible for the oracle:

- illusion - change a single enemy unit to look like a zealot. enemy units will auto-attack this unit (maybe give it a delay so enemy has time to react and micro the fake-zealot away from his main army)

- force wave - pushes units away, kinda like an anti-abduct with aoe

- silence - stops casters from casting spells for a limited amount of time, small aoe

leveller
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Sweden1840 Posts
October 11 2012 21:34 GMT
#44
I agree this spell is horribly thought out but at this late point with all the other spells that are under review I doubt we will see it change any time soon. It is very boring and skill less
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
October 12 2012 00:51 GMT
#45
On October 11 2012 21:14 emythrel wrote:
hang on a second, I came in to a thread entitled "Why entomb should not be redesigned" to find a thread about why entomb sucks. I am confused, very confused. Are you saying it should be removed altogether?


Yes, this is the idea. Not just a superficial redesign to make it more skillful or behave slightly differently, but to cut it all together or either to change the core design and philosophy behind the spell so that it's an entirely new spell.

I apologize for not making this clearer.
rpgalon
Profile Joined April 2011
Brazil1069 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 03:05:43
October 12 2012 01:29 GMT
#46
- Phoenix graviton beam 25 energy.
- Remove the Void-ray charge up mechanic, buff a little the not-charged up damage.
- Make the Void-ray attack be 1 hit/s instead of the 1 hit/0.6s (keep the same DPS)
- Give Void-ray 1 base armor.
- Reduce Carrier Build time from 120 to 90.
- Make fungal not able to lock Air units in place (damage to air units is the same and fungal is still able to lock ground units).
- Change the Mothership skill Vortex to make Archon toilet impossible to do, or just put another skill in it's place.

- Remove Oracle
- Remove Tempest

Thoughts: Phoenix becomes the so wanted protoss harass unit, void-ray becomes a better all-around unit since it no longer has the stupid charge up mechanic, carrier transition becomes viable late game without the need of 4+ stargates, fungal no longer 100% stops the air play and air becomes a decent way of dealing with Brood/corruptor/infestor.
badog
iKill
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Denmark861 Posts
October 12 2012 06:29 GMT
#47
On October 12 2012 09:51 MasterCynical wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2012 21:14 emythrel wrote:
hang on a second, I came in to a thread entitled "Why entomb should not be redesigned" to find a thread about why entomb sucks. I am confused, very confused. Are you saying it should be removed altogether?


Yes, this is the idea. Not just a superficial redesign to make it more skillful or behave slightly differently, but to cut it all together or either to change the core design and philosophy behind the spell so that it's an entirely new spell.

I apologize for not making this clearer.


To be fair, this is what basically everyone means when they say "redesign" about anything in SC2.
thepuppyassassin: "My god... the deathball's grown wings!"
Don.681
Profile Joined September 2010
Philippines189 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 19:18:32
October 12 2012 19:14 GMT
#48
I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field.

Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less.

Edit: okay, found it <clicky>
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
October 12 2012 19:45 GMT
#49
Just change Graviton Beam to be 25 energy! It's the simplest change in the world, and would solve most of the problems with Stargate tech. Phoenixes can now be used as that harass unit Protoss always wanted from the Stargate, and you now don't instantly die 100% of the time to a frontal assault attack after going Stargate. This one buff will create more effective harass and more viable options, allowing Stargate openings to be a more stable way to play.
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
Bobgrimly
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand250 Posts
October 12 2012 20:13 GMT
#50
At a minimum entomb should require a click on each mineral patch to entomb. This one click bs is retarded and boring. No skill. No effort. No risk. It should take time to entomb. And make it harder to clear once its up to compensate. That way more risk to the oracle. Leave it fast so it can escape but having to stay in one place longer to entomb each mineral patch individually
For the swarm
HeavenResign
Profile Joined April 2011
United States702 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-12 21:09:10
October 12 2012 21:07 GMT
#51
On October 13 2012 04:14 Don.681 wrote:
I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field.

Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less.

Edit: okay, found it <clicky>


Rotterdam did that the second day of beta when most players were goofing around.

Warp prism speed, Templar/storm tech, and stargate tech...how viable does that sound to you before 20 minutes into the game, where you might as well just do storm drops anyway with 3 - 4 templar? The only tech buildings you don't need for that setup are DT Shrine and Fleet Beacon.

The ability is silly.
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 09:27:58
October 13 2012 09:03 GMT
#52
On October 11 2012 21:33 emythrel wrote:
The excitement isn't in the killing of workers, it is in the skill used to do it. In the skill of defending it. Like when MvP just perfectly puts up a turret and it finishes the second a DT walks in to range. The excitement is in whether he will see the DT walking in to his base and raise the depot, its not in him having no scans ready, no army at home and 4 DT's about to wrecking 40 SCV's


I agree and disagree with this. The entertainment of skill is on a continuum based on how much a viewer understands about the game. Think about the hundreds of thousands of people watching a GSL/MLG final, do you think they will all understand the skill behind each play? of course not.
To the average TL user such as you or I, the skill and mechanics behind each play is understood and hence we are entertained by how skillful the players have either done or prevented damage.
This is the problem of entomb. Even if you make it require an extremely high skill level to both defend and pull off, only viewers such as you and I will understand and be entertained.

This is evident in any sport, you don't just want the die hard soccer fans to watch a soccer game right? In fact, in a major international soccer event, a majority of the viewers will only know the basics of the game. It is the impressive play by play events such as someone scoring an impossible goal that entertains both the die hard fans and the casual fans. They dont care that John was slightly out of position and Peter had very good positioning, allowing Frank to get that goal. They just care that an impossible goal took place. That's one of the special impacts of soccer. It is the special impact that each sport has that entertains the mass. Entomb doesn't have this special imapct of the players killing each other's stuff that is unique to Starcraft which any fan can understand.

On October 13 2012 04:14 Don.681 wrote:
I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field.

Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less.

Edit: okay, found it <clicky>


Was it the Entomb, or the Storm that killed all the worker that really made that play entertaining? Lets say he just stormed twice onto the entire mineral line instead of doing that entomb/storm combo. I don't think the entomb really added that much more at all, most of the excitement and impact came from the storm.

If anything, we are amazed that he actually found a creative use of entomb. Imagine that entomb/storm play became standard, and we are a few months down the line. This effect wears off and almost all of the impact comes from the storm.
If someone hits an entomb but completely misses a storm, we are let down as viewers. If someone misses an entomb but lands the perfect storm, it still has that same entertaining impact of Starcraft.

Not to mention the massive tech requirement.

On October 11 2012 16:35 ejozl wrote:
I do believe that casters can make this very exciting, by watching a battle, then switching to the mineral line and saying, he hasn't been mining this whole time, OMG! he cannot reinforce!


Yes, any good caster can do this. It's part of their job. It's like how Tasteless/Artosis needs to start cracking jokes after the 8th TvT of a day. Unfortunately, in this case with Entomb, it just wont be genuine and people will indeed pick up on that.

It will feel exactly like this.

On October 11 2012 22:39 mage36 wrote:
Bottom line is can you imagine Kim Carrier and other casters shout out "OHHHHHH ENTOMBUUUUU!!!" Like they would shout out "PLAYGUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "STORMUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!" Doubt it. It's just not that exciting to see.






MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-13 09:13:22
October 13 2012 09:11 GMT
#53
sorry, double post, delete this please.
Evangelist
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
1246 Posts
October 13 2012 09:28 GMT
#54
Entomb would be awesome if it worked on units! Working on minerals just makes it.. rubbish. Protoss has enough harassment options anyway.
osiris17
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States165 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-14 19:05:55
October 14 2012 19:03 GMT
#55
I love Entomb. It's actually very strategic. Where the zerg has to position his units, while the protoss is pressuring him and entombing at the same time. PvZ is way more fun now, I love it.
And Blizzard has shown such willingness to balance this ability, and this unit the oracle. I have only great prospects for Protoss in heart of the swarm. If only Terran were improved so well...
There's too much whining in this community.
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. - sun tzu
R0YAL
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States1768 Posts
October 14 2012 19:21 GMT
#56
On October 11 2012 17:38 Teoita wrote:
The big problem with the Oracle is that it's just so incredibly monodimensional. There's nothing a pro player can do that someone in say, diamond, can't. Compared to a unit like HT's...yeah.

I share the same sentiments as this fellow. It's just such a one dimensional ability that does not vary with the skill of the user. It's another attempt by Blizzard to add something into the game with its role already decided which is something that this game needs less of. We need more flexible units capable of blowing minds in the hands of top pros.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
October 14 2012 19:47 GMT
#57
I completely agree with the OP.
The oracle is a boring unit. There are just a couple problems with the unit:
- It's a half-assed attempt to prevent deathball play by making a unit that has NO use in combat and is only a harasser, at most this just forces a deathball with a few oracles flying around, it's not a constructive way to dismantle the deathball at all..
- It's an air unit, most protoss harass is by air already and is consequently stopped by AA units which are made to counter colossi most of the time anyway.. I would have loved to have seen either the colossus replaced OR a harass unit which was not airbased (and not placed on the stargate..). Robo play for protoss still has practically no harass options as warp prisms are practically not useable (too easy to counter).
- Entomb is utterly boring indeed. The OP explained this perfectly already but harass should vary in it's success wildly depending on micro, timing etc. Entomb is a low risk low reward spell, just very bland.
- The unit just doesn't add cool new gameplay. It doesn't really synergize with other air units too well (exception maybe tempest now) and stargate play already has a ton of options for harass. Phoenix play especially is quite similar to the oracle: it's eco damage is limited by energy and it often doesn't do much in combat.

protoss should have gotten a cliffwalking fast harass unit or something like that. A unit that isn't stopped by anti-air like nearly all other protoss harass options. An air unit that could transform to ground would also have filled an unique role for protoss but alas we are probably stuck with this completely dull unit. I do expect it to get some sort of ability that's useful in combat in the end though
RifleCow
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada637 Posts
October 14 2012 19:49 GMT
#58
Oracle would serve better as a mutli-functional denial unit. It will have the ability to place those cubes on minerals and structures. You can place it on minerals to stop mineral mining, or place it on buildings to prevent them from producing or detecting.
hohoho
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
October 14 2012 19:56 GMT
#59
I think they should lower the radius of entomb, decrease the time and increase the energy but increase the hit points. To complement this nerf i would argue that they should allow entomb to target units. It would allow entomb to be used in battles but in passive games it would be used for mineral harassment.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
October 14 2012 19:57 GMT
#60
I never liked it, but now with the removal of an exciting spell like energize just for the boring entomb makes me hate it now.
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