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I have seen that there is some mixed opinion on the Oracle's Entomb spell.
Some people like it, some don't. The general view of people who do like it is something like "It's a new and interesting harassment method which doesn't kill workers. Just as blizzard intended. It just needs to be balanced". I disagree with this notion on the grounds that it is not an interesting harassment option and no amount of balancing will make it interesting, the core design of the spell is flawed.
Making features in a good esport is like picking a good Dota2 line-up. Every feature of a feature in the game needs to satisfy a particular role in order for it to be successful. The first feature that im concerned with is re-playability. Just like how the carry of a Dota2 team will ensure their victory in the long run, re-playability will ensure an esport's success in the long run.
Instead of writing an extra hundred words explaining this concept, i will thank the pro gamer Orb for doing this for me instead. Thanks Orb!
On September 10 2012 15:39 -orb- wrote:
The inherent problem here is the idea of replayability. When a game is too easy, it is fun the first couple times and then completely loses its charm and gets boring. I love Portal to death, but once you understand the puzzles and what you are supposed to do, it is so easy upon playing a second time through that it is just not fun or worth the time anymore. In order for video games to continue being played for years instead of taking the route of pretty much every single EA title, they need to have some inherent difficulty that is not knowledge based (because anything that's only difficult because you don't know what to do will no longer be difficult once you understand the solution). This is where execution and tactics in Starcraft come in. If the game was only strategy and no tactics, it would get boring extremely quickly and there is no way it would be an esport. It's the simple difficulty of executing a tricky task that makes playing starcraft so fun no matter how many times you have already played it. The problem with Blizzard's design philosophy is that it overestimates the pros of low-difficulty, and underestimates the pros of high-difficulty.
Low difficulty mechanics
Pros: Newbies get less frustrated because there are less things to mess up.
Cons: These same newbies get bored quickly because there is nothing exciting to do (as all the excitement died after the first couple times executing something so easy). Esports is delegitimized and experiences more variance due to a lower skill cap and less opportunities for pros to excel. Pro matches are not fun to watch because any bronze newbie could execute what they see just as well as the pros (obviously this is an extreme example taken to hyperbole). The game does not last nearly as long in popularity because there are no inherently rewarding things to do.
High difficulty mechanics
Pros: Newbies get inspired to actually spend time playing the game because they see professional players doing amazing moves that they didn't even know/think were possible. It encourages them to continue playing the game because they still have many things they haven't mastered. Players actually enjoy the game because there is an inherent enjoyment in having practiced something difficult and executing it correctly. Pro matches are more fun to watch and esports flourishes because people LOVE watching other people do things they can't do (don't believe me? Just look at the olympics... pro sports... BROOD WAR). The game's shelf life is extended tremendously due to the increased enjoyment in replayability.
Cons: Newbies get more frustrated because they cannot perform tactics they see professionals use upon first try and must actually spend some modicum of time practicing.
I have used Entomb according to Blizzard's design and intent, and tbh, using Entomb and remembering to re-Entomb was trivially easy. Fly in and avoid any anti air, hit your Entomb hotkey and click, fly out. Remember to Entomb every 3 in-game minutes. That easy, especially considering how fast oracles move. Wheres the re-playability in this?
The second feature that I'm concerned with is the pro level entertainment value such as when you're watching MLG. This actually closely ties in with re-playability. Why are we impressed by such things as reaver/corsair micro in BW and marine micro in SC2? Because these features have insanely high skill caps, we're simply impressed and dumbfounded of how the pros can do that so perfectly. This isn't however adding in a high skill cap for the sake of a high skill cap, Blizzard can add in a feature that you can only select 5 units at a time, but how much would this add to the entertainment value? not much. This leads to my next point.
Harassment options need to feel like a serious threat.
lets say the Oracle is now a ground unit with Reaver level movement speed, you now have to use it with the Warp Prism when harassing. Lets also make it so that you have to cast Entomb on each mineral patch individually too. Imagine this. Wow, that must take an insane amount of skill to pull off, but is this any more exciting than before? more or less so. One would say that this is just adding skill for the sake of skill.
How come this image of the Entomb or the current version of Entomb doesn't have that excitement and entertainment value like other harassment options?
Entomb doesn't feel like a significant threat. How come we shit out pants when we see Banelings run into a mineral line or when someone executes the perfect storm drop? Or even when those Banelings don't hit, and when that storm doesn't even kill a single worker, our heart rate increases the moment we see it coming because its a real threat that can do huge damage. Even harassment options such as Phoenix harass still has that impact since its doing noticeable damage that the viewer can see.
Entomb currently just does not have this, it feels like a spell that does small chunks of harassment over time. Even if it was balanced to the point where it stopped mining for much longer period, and did huge damage. Entomb still won't have that impact like other harassment options. This is because to the viewer, not much has happened. Its like showing a spreadsheet of lost minerals to the viewer caused by the entomb.
Combined with the very low skill cap, a blunt way of putting it would be "Entomb is a boring harassment option".
I also disagree with the point that "entomb is a new method of harassment".
Lets look at what entomb really is, It is a spell that prevents/slows down income. There are ways in SC2 that this is already present. Such as force fields or even a vortex in a mineral line. If you look back to BW, this was also present, one thing the A.I. did was use Ensare onto a mineral line.
In essence, all these harassment options are the same as an Entomb. But the one thing that sets it apart is MICRO, you can micro out of getting hit by an Ensare, or getting hit by a Vortex but you cant micro out of Entomb. (A-moving into entombed minerals is the lowest possible form of micro in Starcraft)
Lets go back to "It is a spell that prevents/slows down income". All other forms of harassment already does this. A storm drop will force you to pull away workers, which slows down your mining. The only difference is that a storm drop has that special impact while casting Entomb onto a mineral line doesn't.
Entomb is currently a one man Dota2 team, the only feature it has is being a harassment option for the sake of being a harassment option. I believe the excitement in Starcraft 2 comes from the two opposing sides slaughtering each other, and what gives harassment options that special impact is indeed killing workers. I think Blizzard's intent of designing a harassment option without killing workers is flawed. I strongly believe that the current core design of Entomb does not have a place in esports.
EDIT:
The SC2 dev team at Blizzard are now seriously considering to cut Entomb (and Void Siphon) and replace them with new, more spectator friendly spells.
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability
2. We'd like to replace Entomb [and void siphon] with a different ability
and the new replacement spells of the oracle will be along the lines of...
Spell 2: Strong, repeatable harassing tool that has different degrees of success and makes good use of the fragile but fast movement speed of the Oracle.
Spell 3: Position dependent spell, combo with harassment spell, and/or support spell of some sorts.
Basically they seem to be trying to make the oracle into both a support harasser to make other harassment options more viable and a solo harasser. Just a good all round harassment/scouting specialized unit.
What's your opinion on the new direction that the oracle is heading in?
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I like the ability, and think it should stay.
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I like entomb. Watching that lone oracle getting supported by that lone MS Core and running in and out is just awesome to watch and not as stupid as a runby that just means gg half of the time.
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I never understood what people had against entomb.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 11 2012 16:13 Ai.Cola wrote:
I never understood what people had against entomb.
The OP does a good job of explaining why. It's a boring spell to use, even if it is effective (which is debatable). We simply want more interesting spells and more tension via giving the opponent an opportunity to react or making it a more difficult ability to use.
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Mm I feel all of this has been said already, and I'm not sure I agree with some of your points. Entomb is not the same as a Warhound in that its fundamental idea - blocking minerals - does not automatically infer low mechanics, the same way that the Warhound inferred a mech marauder. Entomb can still be redesigned to be more micro-intensive and reciprocal in nature, and I and many others have suggested ways of doing this (see my thread and this thread for instance). I also think claiming an entomb is no different to a forcefield or vortex in the mineral line (wtf?) is a bit of a stretch; even when you ignore the fact that it is not viable to continuously risk sentries or motherships to do this kind of harass, the mineral shields differ in that they can be destroyed and the workers don't go anywhere.
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At first I didn't like Entomb, since it was too similiar to Forcefielding the mineral line and it would stop some of the innovation players might bring to the table. But I've grown to like, watching workers trying to kill these shields.
I do believe that casters can make this very exciting, by watching a battle, then switching to the mineral line and saying, he hasn't been mining this whole time, OMG! he cannot reinforce!
But on the other side, it is very one dimensional, an Entomb cast by a lesser player, is exactly the same as cast by a pro player, it always hits, ALL the minerals, if it was smaller og could be used on gas, or something else, that would make players use this differently, it would be really good for the spell.
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Canada11349 Posts
To be honest it seems like a really redundant unit. The Protoss already have units that used to be harass units or replaced harass units. Blizzard should be really looking at why those units are no longer viable to harass rather than creating such niche unit with so little skill involved. (Whenever I see streamers use it they hardly even watch/control the Oracle beyond shift clicking the spell.)
The high templar used to be a powerful harass unit as well as an army staple. We hardly see storm drops, why is that? That solves part of the 'Protoss neeeds a harass unit" problem. And the collosus replaced the reaver which was another unit that could be used to harass. The Collosus is also rarely seen in drops. Why is that? Blizzard should be looking at both of those units and determining what the change was rather than bloating the army with such a boring spell. (And I don't think the problem is Protoss players suddenly forgot how to put high tier units in shuttles/ warp prisms. There must be reasons that 2 years late we still don't see a comparable number of storm drops in games.)
So yes, I definitely agree that Entomb is not something to be redesigned, but axed altogether. It's such a limited, one-note spell. Multi-functional units are far more interesting as gamers can find new and unique ways to use them. And figuring out units that will synergize with the warp prism makes for interesting gameplay. I sincerely doubt progamers will find new and unique ways to block minerals... because that all it can do.
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I disagree with the OP. I agree with the fact that it lacks micro, and that's the thing that should be balanced/changed. Making the spell more difficult to use would make it an interesting spell without the need to remove it completely.
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Italy12246 Posts
The big problem with the Oracle is that it's just so incredibly monodimensional. There's nothing a pro player can do that someone in say, diamond, can't. Compared to a unit like HT's...yeah.
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On October 11 2012 16:39 Grendel wrote:
I disagree with the OP. I agree with the fact that it lacks micro, and that's the thing that should be balanced/changed. Making the spell more difficult to use would make it an interesting spell without the need to remove it completely.
Yeah agreed fully. I don't think entomb is a bad spell or even concept, but it's far too easily executed right now. What if you had to individually click every mineral patch that you wanted to entomb? That sounds like a more challenging way to implement it.
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Have to agree I always thought that if you had to target every mineral field would be better but if the spell isn't exciting to watch then it probably is more of a problem.
Entombed seems like something that is really annoying but not particularly exciting there just is no tension.
For some reason I imagine a possibly more exciting spell (not saying this is a good idea) entomb attaching to the mineral field and if you dont destroy it in time it will send out a shockwave killing stuff as it disipates being more exciting because of added tension.
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i don't have hope that blizz makes the game harder and spells more rewarding if a very good player uses them compared to a newb. in fact they want to make the game easier and more casual, so that everyone can "micro" like the pros. just look at the post from david kim and bowder in the beta forums. from a eSports perspective that's just awful.
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I agree with all your points, but it can still be salvaged. Higher difficulty cap as well as higher potential for damage, such as forcing each mineral patch to be selected and damage done after a given amount of time (should be low, like 25 damage so that you need to keep hitting them all game).
Also, adding in variables to the equation to make it harder to use is good as well, that is why I don't really like the idea of selecting mineral patches as a final solution because it is a static idea and all you need to do is get really good at clicking mineral patches to pull it off easily.
The key is making it something that anyone can do it to make it pay for itself, masters+ players can do it to give a little value, and only 5-10 people in the world can do perfectly.
I have faith that before HotS is release we will see something like this from Blizzard.
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Great OP. If they don't understand the issue after reading your post, they're too proud to let the idea go.
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hang on a second, I came in to a thread entitled "Why entomb should not be redesigned" to find a thread about why entomb sucks. I am confused, very confused. Are you saying it should be removed altogether?
If so then I disagree heavily, myself and other have put forth suggestions in another thread for how blizzard might go about making the spell more interesting, defending and using it require more skill than a-moving or a single right click....
I think the idea of it is nice but blizzard implementation not.
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On October 11 2012 19:17 cpc wrote:
Have to agree I always thought that if you had to target every mineral field would be better but if the spell isn't exciting to watch then it probably is more of a problem.
Entombed seems like something that is really annoying but not particularly exciting there just is no tension.
For some reason I imagine a possibly more exciting spell (not saying this is a good idea) entomb attaching to the mineral field and if you dont destroy it in time it will send out a shockwave killing stuff as it disipates being more exciting because of added tension.
Haha yeah i've had thoughts of that as well, make it into a timebomb of sorts. I dunno, might be really cool but i dunno if it can be balanced properly.
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On October 11 2012 20:56 wcr.4fun wrote:
Great OP. If they don't understand the issue after reading your post, they're too proud to let the idea go.
Or they simply disagree. Just because you agree with someone's point doesn't mean everyone else has to or they are wrong or too proud to admit it.
Its the same as me going on a rant about why religion is wrong, making very valid points (OP makes valid points. I happen to disagree with his conclusion) and then saying "if you still believe in god, you are just too proud to admit i'm right". It is an OPINION, not a fact. I do not have to agree with anything you tell me is true.
I think the idea of the entomb is very interesting, when I first heard about it I imagined players darting in and out of the base entombing individual mineral stacks a bit like a banshee darts in and out killing workers. That sounds exciting to me, a careful and elegant dance trying to hit the right patches (the ones with 3 in sync miners on them, close patches instead of far ones etc) while not losing the oracle to static D or units.
I don't think that seeing worker die is exciting most of the time, banshee harass is exciting not because of the deaths but because of the dance. When a banshee gets in and kills 20 workers because all the units are elsewhere on the map and can't defend it is not exciting. Just as when a banshee waltzes in to a protoss base and they have no robo or forge and thus no detection is not exciting.
With entomb reworked to be a low energy cost, single stack entomb, it will bring new depth to the game and I believe excitement will follow. The damage done by it will be noticeable by the difference in income or army size, things dont need to die for it to be obvious damage. One of the most obvious ways to damage someone already in WoL without killing anything is to ebay/pylon block an expansion, no workers died but everyone knows that just cost the opponent time and money and he will have to make it up somehow. Same as when you get fake bunker rushed as zerg, you have to pull workers to stop it building, there could be 5-6 marines on the way, nothing gets killed, we as spectators know there are no marines coming and we know he lost mining time.
Entomb serves the same purpose but has an even more noticeable effect since you are physically stopping the workers from mining, it forces a new dynamic on the game that doesn't rely on killing workers..... that is the whole point of the spell. To have a similar effect to hellion/phoenix/banshee harass but without just being the same boring, run in, kill workers, get out. The only time that kind of harass is exciting is when 10-20 workers die to a single hellion volley.... line em up. No one ever said that phoenix's picking up 2 workers and killing them was exciting, its not even that noticeable on how the game progresses.
The excitement isn't in the killing of workers, it is in the skill used to do it. In the skill of defending it. Like when MvP just perfectly puts up a turret and it finishes the second a DT walks in to range. The excitement is in whether he will see the DT walking in to his base and raise the depot, its not in him having no scans ready, no army at home and 4 DT's about to wrecking 40 SCV's
p.s If you dont agree with me after reading this post, then good for you. Debate and differing ideas are how things improve and we learn.
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I agree, the only truly exciting way of harassment is annihilating those poor workers. Adding another way of killing them wouldn't be boring at all.
The entomb could work as a single target spell that does not prevent mining, but causes the mineral field to do damage around itself. It could also have a secondary effect of being less-efficient(opposite to gold fields - u take 5 mins from the field, but only 3 make it to the treasury). Since protoss in general don't have friendly fire, the spell would be also useful in defense of your own mineral line - zergling/hellion runbys, drops etc.
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it could be super intense when it comes to low econ game and entomb is gonna change EVERYTHING
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On October 11 2012 21:41 Tommyth wrote:
I agree, the only truly exciting way of harassment is annihilating those poor workers. Adding another way of killing them wouldn't be boring at all.
The entomb could work as a single target spell that does not prevent mining, but causes the mineral field to do damage around itself. It could also have a secondary effect of being less-efficient(opposite to gold fields - u take 5 mins from the field, but only 3 make it to the treasury). Since protoss in general don't have friendly fire, the spell would be also useful in defense of your own mineral line - zergling/hellion runbys, drops etc.
I actually think that sounds quite cool, but it still doesn't address my personal issue with entomb, which is that it requires no skill to pull off. If it only did aoe around 2 patches at a time and thus you had to decide which patches are best to entomb, I'd be more on board with it than if it does the whole mineral line.
The defensive potential is also a great idea, however I think it would have to do friendly fire to be balanced, maybe im wrong tho.
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I think people overestimate the importance of "exciting" features in a game. Brood war and other old games like counter-strike or even world of warcraft were never designed to be exciting as a spectator sport. They still managed to pull huge audiences because of the content.
I think the reason is that we can learn by watching and playing what makes a game much more interesting. Just take a sport like boxing. To most people it looks like two guys hitting each other, but once you learn what to look for, it is a sport with a lot of depth.
Thats also why we have casters, to explain this for those of us that don't know what to look for.
In the end, as long as a feature is exiting to use, rather than to watch, the game will become better off for it. A player can play an exciting game if he has good tools for it. Tools that makes sense to use. Abilities that work well in that regard are usually abilities that are much less specific than entomb.
What situations can you use entomb and the oracle in currently? Well, you fly in and entomb a mineral line. Usually before the game reaches the latter stages. So most often on two bases or at the very most three. This means there are three ways to use entomb. Period.
The reason you don't use it after this stage in the game is because there is no persistant damage caused. If an opponent is maxed or near maxed, he does not care about his mineral income as much as long as he retains his worker count.
Now compare that to mutas or banshees. Not only can they harass mineral lines as well, but they also have the ability to hit tech, stray reinforcements and even take part in the main battles if necessary. The damage to cause is also permanent, meaning that it is useful even in a maxed vs maxed battle or when the opponent is already banking resources. They are much more general purpose units that can be used in a range of specific scenarios.
The other oracle ability (preordain?) is an on demand detection, which is a great example of a general purpose skill. Entomb needs to be more like that and less of a one trick pony. Exactly how much damage it does or how "hard" it is to use is a balance issue, not a design issue imo.
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Im all for interesting spells but another unit/ability that kills workers is NOT interesting.
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What if when using Void Siphon on an entombed mineral patched, you began to deplete the mineral patch? So, you dart in with the oracle, you Entomb their minerals, and if you are good enough you could micro your oracle in and out mining out your opponent (like some kind of probe harassing at the start of the game).
This way the harassment could still be economical whithout killing the workers, but the skill ceiling is much higher.
Of course energy cost of void syphon should be changed, or change the way it works so it works like a "mineral attack", or maybe even use a completely different/new ability.
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On October 11 2012 21:46 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:41 Tommyth wrote:
I agree, the only truly exciting way of harassment is annihilating those poor workers. Adding another way of killing them wouldn't be boring at all.
The entomb could work as a single target spell that does not prevent mining, but causes the mineral field to do damage around itself. It could also have a secondary effect of being less-efficient(opposite to gold fields - u take 5 mins from the field, but only 3 make it to the treasury). Since protoss in general don't have friendly fire, the spell would be also useful in defense of your own mineral line - zergling/hellion runbys, drops etc. I actually think that sounds quite cool, but it still doesn't address my personal issue with entomb, which is that it requires no skill to pull off. If it only did aoe around 2 patches at a time and thus you had to decide which patches are best to entomb, I'd be more on board with it than if it does the whole mineral line. The defensive potential is also a great idea, however I think it would have to do friendly fire to be balanced, maybe im wrong tho.
I said it should be a single target spell, it could also be channeled and work on more minerals patches. It could also have a very short duration (~3 sec), so that in order to inflict damage you would need to keep the Oracle around.
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please give the oracle back the spell that prevents turrets/spores/cannons from shooting for a while and make entombed range a lot closer AND less energy + every mineral patch needs to be entombend manually.
that way you would still be able to use entombed even if turrets etc. are there BUT it would use a lot more apm since you need to combine the anti-static-defense-spell with entombed on single mineral patches spell.
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I see entomb being like contaminate... Yeah, it makes a difference and shouldn't be overlooked, but... all it does is slow things down a little.
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I think if the oracle gets the spell back to stop defensive structures it would be the best result. It would increase harassment with other units and increase micro. More chances of storm drops, collosi harass, but the only tihng would be pushed could be too strong if it shuts down a defensive structure.
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On October 11 2012 22:05 Decendos wrote:
please give the oracle back the spell that prevents turrets/spores/cannons from shooting for a while and make entombed range a lot closer AND less energy + every mineral patch needs to be entombend manually.
that way you would still be able to use entombed even if turrets etc. are there BUT it would use a lot more apm since you need to combine the anti-static-defense-spell with entombed on single mineral patches spell.
If you are going to go so far, why not just make the 2 abilities in to 1. Channels spell that steals 1-2 minerals per stack per second while also reducing the amount mined by 1-2 per trip. The balance on that would be that the stolen minerals are removed from the game, not added to the protoss using the oracle. That way you are only damaging your opponent without actually gaining anything yourself. A bit like how when you harass with hellions you are always likely to lose 1 or 2, do you damage your opponent but dont actually gain anything yourself.
I'm not sure that this ability would add anything to the game but hey its an idea. I personally still would go for a low energy cost, single stack entomb that blocks mining ;p
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yay, my post got linked in to the bnet OP for that thread too. I feel important now lol
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Funny thing. In a thread just after the announcement of the Oracle (prebeta), I made a thread where I predicted all this. I analyzed all the design problems of the Oracle, and came to the (correct) conclusion that the only way the Oracle would be interesting is if would be used in the late game through insane multitasking and with 3-4 oracles constantly mineral blocking all the bases.
Stupid posters however, told me that we my post was useless as I had not played the game yet.
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Bottom line is can you imagine Kim Carrier and other casters shout out "OHHHHHH ENTOMBUUUUU!!!" Like they would shout out "PLAYGUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "STORMUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!" Doubt it. It's just not that exciting to see.
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On October 11 2012 21:45 ETisME wrote:
it could be super intense when it comes to low econ game and entomb is gonna change EVERYTHING
A low-econ game with an oracle sounds like a game lost by building a stargate and an oracle.
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On October 11 2012 16:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 16:13 Ai.Cola wrote:
I never understood what people had against entomb. The OP does a good job of explaining why. It's a boring spell to use, even if it is effective (which is debatable). We simply want more interesting spells and more tension via giving the opponent an opportunity to react or making it a more difficult ability to use.
I disagree it's neither boring or"easy you use" it's like watching a no hitter in baseball. This spell is great and will more than likely stay as it right fully should.
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On October 11 2012 23:59 TheLunatic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 16:17 Plexa wrote:On October 11 2012 16:13 Ai.Cola wrote:
I never understood what people had against entomb. The OP does a good job of explaining why. It's a boring spell to use, even if it is effective (which is debatable). We simply want more interesting spells and more tension via giving the opponent an opportunity to react or making it a more difficult ability to use. I disagree it's neither boring or"easy you use" it's like watching a no hitter in baseball. This spell is great and will more than likely stay as it right fully should.
What do you base this on ? I've watched plenty of HotS streams and video casts and Shift/clicking players aren't anything exciting to see.
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The entire point of the Oracle not doing damage was to give it really low synergy with the Protoss deathball, encouraging Protoss to take some supply out of their army and spread it around the map more. The problem with "just give Protoss reavers back" is that its likely such a unit would see far more use paired with Immortals in really strong timing attacks, or incorporated into lategame deathballs. "This unit has low mobility but crazy high damage" is not really an incentive to break up the deathball, especially now that most lategame Toss compositions incorporate Warp Prisms for fast reinforcement.
Protoss armies already have a problem where by far the most effective way to use them is to keep all your army supply in one giant ball. There need to be reasons for them to split things up--giving opponents better AOE might help a little with that, but I think fundamentally Blizzard is right that Protoss need more units which are most optimal when kept separate from the main army. That was the point of long Tempest range, and Tempest overkill being so inefficient--the best way to use Tempests requires keeping them at least somewhat behind the rest of the army, and ideally spread out a bit so there's less risk of accidentall overkill. That was also the reasoning behind the Oracle being a harassment unit that can't attack anything.
I do, however, agree that the specific way the Oracle does its job without contributing to the deathball is boring and binary. There's no such thing as a "money entomb", nor are there opportunities for exceptional countermicro.
The question is, is there a way to give Oracles better, more interesting harass...that won't simply be most optimal when used as part of a giant deathball? Like, "give Oracles an anti-light damage splash attack" might make them better at killing workers, but its also likely that spell would make the Protoss deathball even stronger, and wouldn't really do anything to push Protoss to spread supply out more. So whatever the solution is, I think it needs to be something which works best away from the rest of the army.
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I agree it lacks micro and it also lacks risk for the oracle himself, as the range is pretty large, which makes it a pretty boring spell to use, try to defend, and for the viewers as well.
If it would be changed so that you would need to stay on top of the minerals and requiered 3 entombs for the full mineral line (costing 1/3 the current energy), that would be a good start imho.
On October 11 2012 22:05 Decendos wrote:
please give the oracle back the spell that prevents turrets/spores/cannons from shooting for a while and make entombed range a lot closer AND less energy + every mineral patch needs to be entombend manually.
that way you would still be able to use entombed even if turrets etc. are there BUT it would use a lot more apm since you need to combine the anti-static-defense-spell with entombed on single mineral patches spell.
Or this.
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The entire point of the Oracle not doing damage was to give it really low synergy with the Protoss deathball, encouraging Protoss to take some supply out of their army and spread it around the map more.
This was a stupid goal. You aren't going to make Protoss want to split his army by making 4 of his 200 supply want to do its own thing. You need to address the issues with the 196 supply.
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One unit wont break up the protoss deathball because the death ball exists for two reasons:
1. Small number of protoss units are relatively weak. ie gateway units dont go toe to toe with other tier 1 very much at all. instead you rely on tier 3 with amazing splash to kill stuff and zealot/stalker to be a meat shield for the t3.
2. Protoss units are not very fast. Only blink stalkers and phoenix can really be out on their own without risk of getting caught, and those units have such low damage output compared to their cost that they are mostly harmless (phoenix vs. ground at least).
In order for the oracle to solve this it would need to have the ability to let a small protoss force survive long enough on its own. That way you can use regular units to harass and counter attack together with an oracle and acheive splitting that way. Without such an ability the oracle will either be a good or a bad harass unit. If good you always build 1-2, if bad you build none. The effect is that when you are maxed, the oppoenent wont be because of your oracle. If that doesnt happen, the oracle has done very little if any at all.
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I have to agree with OP. I was open to Entombed, mainly because despite many pro players being unsure of the point of Entombed, Artosis loved it. But after watching it being used it seems no matter what it is a one dimensional spell, using entomb is using entomb. People give forcefields shit but at least even at the top levels of play players struggle to get optimum forcefields off, even if as people say it creates a bit of one-sided micro.
I think the original goal of the unit was silly, and so do a lot of other players. At this point with spells like Revelation, I think it'd be way better to see it become a support caster (aka having spells that don't do damage)- other people have posted lots of ideas that are actually really cool. Phase Shield was a little convoluted in purpose but I think it was on the right track in terms of the role it gave the Oracle (Void Siphon of course, is not). Of course you'd have to balance that with the mothership core but the only spell MSC has to support an actual army is recall.
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Canada11349 Posts
@ awesomoecalypse
If the goal was to break up the Protoss deathball it fails on all counts. It does absolutely nothing to change the army composition of the Protoss and pulls out only a tiny supply amount from the main army. A true raider for Protoss works best with the warp prism that has an actual burst damage attack would help break up the death ball.
Why?
Because the raider can be shuttled to the enemy base and kill workers. If it's something other than the HT, then it has the option of picking off units and buildings. But then it can be pulled back to defend. Because it can kill stuff fast, a small number of them can hold off larger numbers. (Although SC2 units and mechanics largely ignoring high ground/ terrain features the advantage of this will be muted.) Or they can push forward with the main army and pick off forward units or reinforcements. In other words it's a unit that can be moved all over the map doing all sorts of jobs. That breaks up the death ball.
But if it works best with a warp prism it is self-balancing. You can only control so many of them effectively at time. So if you have lots of them, you cannot control them all equally well and the player with less (assuming mirror match up) can gain advantages by controlling their smaller force better. It pushes away from composition balance to player control balance.
Zealots, HT, DT, and Reavers were heavily used as raiders in BW. HT, DT and Collosi/ Immortals in SC2 are not nearly as heavily used as raiders. Only Chargelots are extensively used for harass. Why is that? That would be far better to solve then to create such a niche unit that does nothing to change the Protoss army composition. (Plus the unit requires so little attention to manage.)
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On October 11 2012 19:17 cpc wrote:
Have to agree I always thought that if you had to target every mineral field would be better but if the spell isn't exciting to watch then it probably is more of a problem.
Entombed seems like something that is really annoying but not particularly exciting there just is no tension.
For some reason I imagine a possibly more exciting spell (not saying this is a good idea) entomb attaching to the mineral field and if you dont destroy it in time it will send out a shockwave killing stuff as it disipates being more exciting because of added tension.
this actually seems like a good idea :o
how about these ideas:
- entomb only hits a single mineral patch, this patch changes visibly but can still be mined, but all money mined goes to the protoss player (disappears directly at the patch in a warp something or whatever). could potentially go unnoticed for a long time
- entombs creates small warpfields and all resources (gas or minerals) that are carried through these by workers disappear and go to the protoss player
- entombed minerals can still be mined but damage workers so that if you dont manually pull your workers you might lose some, especially after multiple entombs
other ideas for spells totally different than entomb but still possible for the oracle:
- illusion - change a single enemy unit to look like a zealot. enemy units will auto-attack this unit (maybe give it a delay so enemy has time to react and micro the fake-zealot away from his main army)
- force wave - pushes units away, kinda like an anti-abduct with aoe
- silence - stops casters from casting spells for a limited amount of time, small aoe
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I agree this spell is horribly thought out but at this late point with all the other spells that are under review I doubt we will see it change any time soon. It is very boring and skill less
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On October 11 2012 21:14 emythrel wrote:
hang on a second, I came in to a thread entitled "Why entomb should not be redesigned" to find a thread about why entomb sucks. I am confused, very confused. Are you saying it should be removed altogether?
Yes, this is the idea. Not just a superficial redesign to make it more skillful or behave slightly differently, but to cut it all together or either to change the core design and philosophy behind the spell so that it's an entirely new spell.
I apologize for not making this clearer.
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- Phoenix graviton beam 25 energy.
- Remove the Void-ray charge up mechanic, buff a little the not-charged up damage.
- Make the Void-ray attack be 1 hit/s instead of the 1 hit/0.6s (keep the same DPS)
- Give Void-ray 1 base armor.
- Reduce Carrier Build time from 120 to 90.
- Make fungal not able to lock Air units in place (damage to air units is the same and fungal is still able to lock ground units).
- Change the Mothership skill Vortex to make Archon toilet impossible to do, or just put another skill in it's place.
- Remove Oracle
- Remove Tempest
Thoughts: Phoenix becomes the so wanted protoss harass unit, void-ray becomes a better all-around unit since it no longer has the stupid charge up mechanic, carrier transition becomes viable late game without the need of 4+ stargates, fungal no longer 100% stops the air play and air becomes a decent way of dealing with Brood/corruptor/infestor.
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On October 12 2012 09:51 MasterCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 21:14 emythrel wrote:
hang on a second, I came in to a thread entitled "Why entomb should not be redesigned" to find a thread about why entomb sucks. I am confused, very confused. Are you saying it should be removed altogether?
Yes, this is the idea. Not just a superficial redesign to make it more skillful or behave slightly differently, but to cut it all together or either to change the core design and philosophy behind the spell so that it's an entirely new spell. I apologize for not making this clearer.
To be fair, this is what basically everyone means when they say "redesign" about anything in SC2.
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I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field.
Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less.
Edit: okay, found it <clicky>
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Just change Graviton Beam to be 25 energy! It's the simplest change in the world, and would solve most of the problems with Stargate tech. Phoenixes can now be used as that harass unit Protoss always wanted from the Stargate, and you now don't instantly die 100% of the time to a frontal assault attack after going Stargate. This one buff will create more effective harass and more viable options, allowing Stargate openings to be a more stable way to play.
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At a minimum entomb should require a click on each mineral patch to entomb. This one click bs is retarded and boring. No skill. No effort. No risk. It should take time to entomb. And make it harder to clear once its up to compensate. That way more risk to the oracle. Leave it fast so it can escape but having to stay in one place longer to entomb each mineral patch individually
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On October 13 2012 04:14 Don.681 wrote:I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field. Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less. Edit: okay, found it <clicky>
Rotterdam did that the second day of beta when most players were goofing around.
Warp prism speed, Templar/storm tech, and stargate tech...how viable does that sound to you before 20 minutes into the game, where you might as well just do storm drops anyway with 3 - 4 templar? The only tech buildings you don't need for that setup are DT Shrine and Fleet Beacon.
The ability is silly.
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On October 11 2012 21:33 emythrel wrote:
The excitement isn't in the killing of workers, it is in the skill used to do it. In the skill of defending it. Like when MvP just perfectly puts up a turret and it finishes the second a DT walks in to range. The excitement is in whether he will see the DT walking in to his base and raise the depot, its not in him having no scans ready, no army at home and 4 DT's about to wrecking 40 SCV's
I agree and disagree with this. The entertainment of skill is on a continuum based on how much a viewer understands about the game. Think about the hundreds of thousands of people watching a GSL/MLG final, do you think they will all understand the skill behind each play? of course not.
To the average TL user such as you or I, the skill and mechanics behind each play is understood and hence we are entertained by how skillful the players have either done or prevented damage.
This is the problem of entomb. Even if you make it require an extremely high skill level to both defend and pull off, only viewers such as you and I will understand and be entertained.
This is evident in any sport, you don't just want the die hard soccer fans to watch a soccer game right? In fact, in a major international soccer event, a majority of the viewers will only know the basics of the game. It is the impressive play by play events such as someone scoring an impossible goal that entertains both the die hard fans and the casual fans. They dont care that John was slightly out of position and Peter had very good positioning, allowing Frank to get that goal. They just care that an impossible goal took place. That's one of the special impacts of soccer. It is the special impact that each sport has that entertains the mass. Entomb doesn't have this special imapct of the players killing each other's stuff that is unique to Starcraft which any fan can understand.
On October 13 2012 04:14 Don.681 wrote:I saw this youtube video where some guy entombed all but 2 mineral patches, dropped a 2 High Templar then stormed ALL 24 of the enemy drones as they proceeded to mine and stack on one side of mineral field. Entomb+Prisim+Storm. No, no, it's not boring and skill less. Edit: okay, found it <clicky>
Was it the Entomb, or the Storm that killed all the worker that really made that play entertaining? Lets say he just stormed twice onto the entire mineral line instead of doing that entomb/storm combo. I don't think the entomb really added that much more at all, most of the excitement and impact came from the storm.
If anything, we are amazed that he actually found a creative use of entomb. Imagine that entomb/storm play became standard, and we are a few months down the line. This effect wears off and almost all of the impact comes from the storm.
If someone hits an entomb but completely misses a storm, we are let down as viewers. If someone misses an entomb but lands the perfect storm, it still has that same entertaining impact of Starcraft.
Not to mention the massive tech requirement.
On October 11 2012 16:35 ejozl wrote:
I do believe that casters can make this very exciting, by watching a battle, then switching to the mineral line and saying, he hasn't been mining this whole time, OMG! he cannot reinforce!
Yes, any good caster can do this. It's part of their job. It's like how Tasteless/Artosis needs to start cracking jokes after the 8th TvT of a day. Unfortunately, in this case with Entomb, it just wont be genuine and people will indeed pick up on that.
It will feel exactly like this.
On October 11 2012 22:39 mage36 wrote:
Bottom line is can you imagine Kim Carrier and other casters shout out "OHHHHHH ENTOMBUUUUU!!!" Like they would shout out "PLAYGUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "STORMUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!" Doubt it. It's just not that exciting to see.
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sorry, double post, delete this please.
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Entomb would be awesome if it worked on units! Working on minerals just makes it.. rubbish. Protoss has enough harassment options anyway.
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I love Entomb. It's actually very strategic. Where the zerg has to position his units, while the protoss is pressuring him and entombing at the same time. PvZ is way more fun now, I love it.
And Blizzard has shown such willingness to balance this ability, and this unit the oracle. I have only great prospects for Protoss in heart of the swarm. If only Terran were improved so well...
There's too much whining in this community.
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On October 11 2012 17:38 Teoita wrote:
The big problem with the Oracle is that it's just so incredibly monodimensional. There's nothing a pro player can do that someone in say, diamond, can't. Compared to a unit like HT's...yeah.
I share the same sentiments as this fellow. It's just such a one dimensional ability that does not vary with the skill of the user. It's another attempt by Blizzard to add something into the game with its role already decided which is something that this game needs less of. We need more flexible units capable of blowing minds in the hands of top pros.
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I completely agree with the OP.
The oracle is a boring unit. There are just a couple problems with the unit:
- It's a half-assed attempt to prevent deathball play by making a unit that has NO use in combat and is only a harasser, at most this just forces a deathball with a few oracles flying around, it's not a constructive way to dismantle the deathball at all..
- It's an air unit, most protoss harass is by air already and is consequently stopped by AA units which are made to counter colossi most of the time anyway.. I would have loved to have seen either the colossus replaced OR a harass unit which was not airbased (and not placed on the stargate..). Robo play for protoss still has practically no harass options as warp prisms are practically not useable (too easy to counter).
- Entomb is utterly boring indeed. The OP explained this perfectly already but harass should vary in it's success wildly depending on micro, timing etc. Entomb is a low risk low reward spell, just very bland.
- The unit just doesn't add cool new gameplay. It doesn't really synergize with other air units too well (exception maybe tempest now) and stargate play already has a ton of options for harass. Phoenix play especially is quite similar to the oracle: it's eco damage is limited by energy and it often doesn't do much in combat.
protoss should have gotten a cliffwalking fast harass unit or something like that. A unit that isn't stopped by anti-air like nearly all other protoss harass options. An air unit that could transform to ground would also have filled an unique role for protoss but alas we are probably stuck with this completely dull unit. I do expect it to get some sort of ability that's useful in combat in the end though
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Oracle would serve better as a mutli-functional denial unit. It will have the ability to place those cubes on minerals and structures. You can place it on minerals to stop mineral mining, or place it on buildings to prevent them from producing or detecting.
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I think they should lower the radius of entomb, decrease the time and increase the energy but increase the hit points. To complement this nerf i would argue that they should allow entomb to target units. It would allow entomb to be used in battles but in passive games it would be used for mineral harassment.
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I never liked it, but now with the removal of an exciting spell like energize just for the boring entomb makes me hate it now.
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I hate Entomb. It's like a Protoss Larva Inject. The Oracle has potential, and I'd like Protoss to have a unit kind of like how it currently is, but I want that unit to have some more microability (if that's even a word haha). Even Void Syphon is a much more interesting ability (not saying much), and we've all seen all the complaining over that one..
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On October 13 2012 18:28 Evangelist wrote:
Entomb would be awesome if it worked on units! Working on minerals just makes it.. rubbish. Protoss has enough harassment options anyway.
On October 15 2012 04:49 RifleCow wrote:
Oracle would serve better as a mutli-functional denial unit. It will have the ability to place those cubes on minerals and structures. You can place it on minerals to stop mineral mining, or place it on buildings to prevent them from producing or detecting.
Absolutly agree, said that a while ago:
1.
Make the oracle into a mobile shieldbattery , wich can attack while moving , like the voidray and can suck up slowly enemy hp and can save it as shieldenergy , wich can be supplyd later on to own units , to regenerate their shields.And if it gets emp-d it loses all of its saved shieldenergy.
2.
It also shoud have the ability to generate a field like a pylon and to teleport an friendly unit , wich is in the field , to another point in the field.If you overlap the fields of some oracles than you can also chainteleport in short steps over longer distance.
3
And entomp shoud take 2-3 secs , in wich the oracle must stay in attacking range(think of it as a beam wich changes the dimension of the target like in star trek) and shoud be working on friendly and enemy units and structures. And make it that the target disapiers and you must get detection , to see the green bubble and destroy it. So that you can hide own units and buildings for a short time , when the enemy is attacking , or hide (single) enemy units vortex like , or buildings to slow down their production/upgrades.If you target minerals you can target only 1 mineral patch at the time.
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On October 11 2012 18:41 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 16:39 Grendel wrote:
I disagree with the OP. I agree with the fact that it lacks micro, and that's the thing that should be balanced/changed. Making the spell more difficult to use would make it an interesting spell without the need to remove it completely. Yeah agreed fully. I don't think entomb is a bad spell or even concept, but it's far too easily executed right now. What if you had to individually click every mineral patch that you wanted to entomb? That sounds like a more challenging way to implement it.
Yeah if it does stay then they HAVE to make that change, atleast then it would then take a little effort instead of none.
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Time your entombs strategically and it gets interesting.... all this community does is whine, never thinking for yourselves to come up with better strategies. Just whine more.
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Just making it require more clicks does not make it more interesting. It would be similar to having to individually click on each unit you wanted to load into a dropship.
It seems the oracle is far too specialised, it is only really useful in an opponents base and once they know you have it its easy to defend against. Every other form of harass is multipurpose and the units can be used for other things and can have very different results based on the execution of attacker and defender.
The oracle could perhaps also be used as a spotter for the tempest, however is it worth it just for that with observers and hallucinations?
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i think its pretty dumb that entomb can be cast even if there is turrets/spider mines,i usually put 2 turrets and a widow mine at mineral lines but the oracle just zips in entombs from the longest possible distance and only get 1-2 turret hits, only shield damage.
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On October 15 2012 06:58 osiris17 wrote:
Time your entombs strategically and it gets interesting.... all this community does is whine, never thinking for yourselves to come up with better strategies. Just whine more.
Their is a difference between whine and comming up with own ideas. Their is a huge amount of complains about
the oracle being 1 dimensional, boring to watch, not microintensive/ to easy to use-to little difference in use between pros and amateurs , being only an better detector (wich is not anymore true after patch 6). But their is a very mysterious thing going on between blizzard and the oracle . They refuse to talk about entomb on their own beta-forum.
Dustin Browder said in one of his interviews about creepspread , that many people complaind to him about the idea of creep spread at the beginning , and that he was happy that he didnt listen to them and implemented the idea of creep spread
in the game. I think , for them , entomb is the "new creep spread". They think people complaining now , but if they play more with it in the released game , than they woud be glad that entomb stayed the way it is now.
But its totally not!!!
Creep spread was an good idea wich rewardet apm with vision.
Entomb is an easy to use , but boring to watch ability for the casuals.
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On October 15 2012 07:13 StandAloneComplex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 06:58 osiris17 wrote:
Time your entombs strategically and it gets interesting.... all this community does is whine, never thinking for yourselves to come up with better strategies. Just whine more. Their is a difference between whine and comming up with own ideas. Their is a huge amount of complains about the oracle being 1 dimensional, boring to watch, not microintensive/ to easy to use-to little difference in use between pros and amateurs , being only an better detector (wich is not anymore true after patch 6). But their is a very mysteriouse thing going on between blizzard and the oracle . They refuse to talk about entomb on their own beta-forum. Dustin Browder said in one of his interviews about creepspread , that many people complaind about the idea of creep spread at the beginning by him , and that he was happy that he ignord that complains and implemented the idea of creep spread in the game. I think for them entomb is the "new creep spread". But its totally not!!! Creep spread was an good idea wich rewardet apm with vision. Entomb is an easy to use but boring to watch ability for the casuals.
If you are being strategic about entomb combining it with pressure, that's hardly 1 dimensional. Micro required is irrelevant; what Entomb offers is strategy. If you use your entomb non-strategically, dumbly, like a chrono boost as one user said; then this is not as compelling; perhaps boring. This is the wrong way to use it; at least it doesn't maximize the spells potential.. The spell has more to offer. Using entomb at critical times, in a strategic way, will not be boring to watch.
But the current style of Protoss forge expanding, staying very passive, and never pressuring, does not mix as strongly with entomb. Because if you simply entomb the zerg mineral while his army is not occupied, he may kill it instantly and nothing happens.
Considering this, and with the addition of the mothership core recall, it is clear that Protoss should be pressuring more often. And for this I believe Naniwas gateway expand is the superior opener. As Protoss continue to forge expand, and play very passive, they continue to whine.
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On October 15 2012 07:05 EleanorRIgby wrote:
i think its pretty dumb that entomb can be cast even if there is turrets/spider mines,i usually put 2 turrets and a widow mine at mineral lines but the oracle just zips in entombs from the longest possible distance and only get 1-2 turret hits, only shield damage.
if you think about the fact that the Oracle is a 150/150/3 unit that has basically only one role, it gotta at least be good in doing it.
considering how much one-dimensional the oracle is, it's harass is actually not that strong. I mean, If hellions could only attack workers, wouldn't you think it's damage should get a buff?
PS: yeah, I know you can use the oracle to spot too.
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Despite my belief Entomb is a fine spell, I do think the Oracle could use another good spell.
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10387 Posts
Entomb is SOOOOOOOO LAME. You're never gonna hear anyone get excited about it, and when someone wins bbecause of it the viewer is just gonna be like "oh." instead of "WOW".
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Entomb should be channeled & should be invulnerable. Only way to deny is to kill it or shoo it away.
Or it shouldn't prevent mining, but damage miners that mine from the affected minerals.
Or make it target 1 or a few mineral patches and kills any miner that fully mines from it.
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On October 11 2012 21:33 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:56 wcr.4fun wrote:
Great OP. If they don't understand the issue after reading your post, they're too proud to let the idea go. + Show Spoiler +Or they simply disagree. Just because you agree with someone's point doesn't mean everyone else has to or they are wrong or too proud to admit it.
Its the same as me going on a rant about why religion is wrong, making very valid points (OP makes valid points. I happen to disagree with his conclusion) and then saying "if you still believe in god, you are just too proud to admit i'm right". It is an OPINION, not a fact. I do not have to agree with anything you tell me is true.
I think the idea of the entomb is very interesting, when I first heard about it I imagined players darting in and out of the base entombing individual mineral stacks a bit like a banshee darts in and out killing workers. That sounds exciting to me, a careful and elegant dance trying to hit the right patches (the ones with 3 in sync miners on them, close patches instead of far ones etc) while not losing the oracle to static D or units.
I don't think that seeing worker die is exciting most of the time, banshee harass is exciting not because of the deaths but because of the dance. When a banshee gets in and kills 20 workers because all the units are elsewhere on the map and can't defend it is not exciting. Just as when a banshee waltzes in to a protoss base and they have no robo or forge and thus no detection is not exciting.
With entomb reworked to be a low energy cost, single stack entomb, it will bring new depth to the game and I believe excitement will follow. The damage done by it will be noticeable by the difference in income or army size, things dont need to die for it to be obvious damage. One of the most obvious ways to damage someone already in WoL without killing anything is to ebay/pylon block an expansion, no workers died but everyone knows that just cost the opponent time and money and he will have to make it up somehow. Same as when you get fake bunker rushed as zerg, you have to pull workers to stop it building, there could be 5-6 marines on the way, nothing gets killed, we as spectators know there are no marines coming and we know he lost mining time.
Entomb serves the same purpose but has an even more noticeable effect since you are physically stopping the workers from mining, it forces a new dynamic on the game that doesn't rely on killing workers..... that is the whole point of the spell. To have a similar effect to hellion/phoenix/banshee harass but without just being the same boring, run in, kill workers, get out. The only time that kind of harass is exciting is when 10-20 workers die to a single hellion volley.... line em up. No one ever said that phoenix's picking up 2 workers and killing them was exciting, its not even that noticeable on how the game progresses.
The excitement isn't in the killing of workers, it is in the skill used to do it. In the skill of defending it. Like when MvP just perfectly puts up a turret and it finishes the second a DT walks in to range. The excitement is in whether he will see the DT walking in to his base and raise the depot, its not in him having no scans ready, no army at home and 4 DT's about to wrecking 40 SCV's
p.s If you dont agree with me after reading this post, then good for you. Debate and differing ideas are how things improve and we learn.
I agree completely. The OP is right in the current assesment that the ability is too easy to use. Having the ability only work on 1 or 2 stacks I think would be pretty cool, and the oracle could go around "carpet entombing" minerals on the map.
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I agree with the main thrust of this article. I disagree that the oracle is super fundamentally flawed. My actual main gripe about it is that it doesn't do enough for how much it costs. Anyway, how about a redesign which makes the entomb-ish worker harrassment thing more micro friendly? I think it would also be cool to hit gas as well as mins. I do dislike the automatic under attack notifications you get when you get entombed.
(mini)Mind control: All enemy workers within AOE will follow the oracle around like a magnet: Cost x mana to activate and drain y per second mana
That way especially paired w msc you could pull off some cool stuff. Esp when paired w say storm or FF. Which by the way was an example of a nice high mechanics use of entomb.
Confuse: Enemy workers issued move commands in random directions when spell is activated (AOE).
During big or just micro intensive battles if you could pull that off you could do some nice damage and really tax the person's apm.
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I agree that it's not very exciting and that it is bonehead easy to use, but all that aside oracle play in non-mirrors has a serious problem with diminishing returns. In pvp, if I open with stargate oracle-> phoenix (which mostly soak up shots for the oracle) I can do a lot of damage because for a period of time, no matter how good his reactions are, his mineral income will be 0 every time I entomb until he has an expansion. In the beta so far, I have yet to lose a pvp where I can get two or three entombs before 10 minutes. (But removing energize nerfed that build, so we'll see what happens. I still think it's really strong.)
But in pvz, if you open stargate off an ffe and harass with the oracle the first entomb might halve his mineral income briefly but after that, it's 1/3 or less for a pretty short duration (queens and speedlings help the zerg clear the entombs pretty fast). It's almost negligible damage.
Until the day when stargate is a stable opener in pvt, that match up isn't worth talking about.
Think of the oracle like an orbital command, and entomb as a sort of anti-mule. In the early game stages, that 50 energy is precious to the terran and scanning hurts. With more bases, each mule is a lot less valuable in and of itself and scans happen a lot more often because the effect it has on their economy is negligible. Hitting an entomb is like missing out on two mules from one OC. Sucks early on, but doesn't really mean much on three bases.
Protoss can't afford to build multiple oracles if all they do in the mid and late game is provide some vision, so the oracle gets pigeonholed into very specific builds that revolve around fucking with the other guy's timings in pvp, and maybe in pvz. This is not a unit you're going to see a lot, and to take it back to blizzard's stated goal of giving protoss a viable raiding option, it completely fails in that regard. The only match up that could have it as a standard is the same one that usually ends on one base.
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Trade entombed for stasis field. win win
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There are so many problems that it's hard to keep them all organized.
-Entomb is too easy to use
-The effect of entomb is not exciting
-Entomb's impact is binary in that it either does full damage or no damage with no possibility to improve the effect through skill
-Entomb is not cost effective
-Oracle is too one-dimensional
-Stargate didn't need another harass unit, robo did
-Losing mining time isn't new. It's what happens when the player saves his workers from a normal raid. In other words, what is a disappointing return for any other type of worker raid is the primary objective of the oracle.
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Entomb is only really handy when vs Terran they have a base and completely saturate it with mules and you emtomb it then. Mules don't attack.
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On October 15 2012 07:27 osiris17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 07:13 StandAloneComplex wrote:On October 15 2012 06:58 osiris17 wrote:
Time your entombs strategically and it gets interesting.... all this community does is whine, never thinking for yourselves to come up with better strategies. Just whine more. Their is a difference between whine and comming up with own ideas. Their is a huge amount of complains about the oracle being 1 dimensional, boring to watch, not microintensive/ to easy to use-to little difference in use between pros and amateurs , being only an better detector (wich is not anymore true after patch 6). But their is a very mysteriouse thing going on between blizzard and the oracle . They refuse to talk about entomb on their own beta-forum. Dustin Browder said in one of his interviews about creepspread , that many people complaind about the idea of creep spread at the beginning by him , and that he was happy that he ignord that complains and implemented the idea of creep spread in the game. I think for them entomb is the "new creep spread". But its totally not!!! Creep spread was an good idea wich rewardet apm with vision. Entomb is an easy to use but boring to watch ability for the casuals. If you are being strategic about entomb combining it with pressure, that's hardly 1 dimensional. Micro required is irrelevant; what Entomb offers is strategy. If you use your entomb non-strategically, dumbly, like a chrono boost as one user said; then this is not as compelling; perhaps boring. This is the wrong way to use it; at least it doesn't maximize the spells potential.. The spell has more to offer. Using entomb at critical times, in a strategic way, will not be boring to watch. But the current style of Protoss forge expanding, staying very passive, and never pressuring, does not mix as strongly with entomb. Because if you simply entomb the zerg mineral while his army is not occupied, he may kill it instantly and nothing happens. Considering this, and with the addition of the mothership core recall, it is clear that Protoss should be pressuring more often. And for this I believe Naniwas gateway expand is the superior opener. As Protoss continue to forge expand, and play very passive, they continue to whine.
I like this suggestion and it is a good way to get the most out of your Entomb, and I also like having something as protoss that forces more micro on their end then on yours.
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I would like to see the Oracle get a little more variety. I agree that it would be nice to get a harass option somewhere other than the Stargate. Give the Void Siphon to the warp prism or something idk. The liked the direction the oracle had before when it allowed a form of detection. I thought the tweaking of that ability to be a step in the wrong direction.
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Loved detection on Oracle... was the main thing that made me build them. But detection on the mothership core is needed if widow mines stay around what they are now.
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I've never played HoTS but this entomb thing looks so unexciting and un-starcrafty that I won't even consider buying this game until it is removed.
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I'll go ahead and post some of the ideas rolling around in my head right now. I think the Oracle should be more of a support unit than a harass unit(but still have some applicable harass assist)
1. Remove Entombed
2. Void Siphon can be used on mineral patches, 'destroying' minerals off a single patch(at or slightly above the rate of optimal saturation). Additionally, instead of giving the protoss minerals, it generates energy for the Oracle. Lastly, it adds a 'contaminate' like effect that prevents production/research/mining on its target.
A lot of things you can do with this; slow down tech, deny mining while hastening the mine-out of your opponent, and even acting as a potential harass at the third before your opponent actually takes it(just imagine your face when you go to take your third only to find out it's already halfway mined out). An application I've thought of is is something like a sentry-warp prism-oracle drop where you throw down the sentries, spam some force fields to keep enemy units coming in(or workers from escaping) while simultaneously draining minerals.
3. New ability: Discharge - Channeled(while moving), lasts until canceled, drains 2-5 energy per second. Tethers the Oracle to a Void Ray within 5 range, giving it an instant maximum charge and a small splash. If the tether is broken, the void ray will instantly lose its charge, regardless of how long it has fired on a single target. Can also be used to transfer energy from the oracle to other energy-using units.
With the tempest no longer T3, I think we should add some synergy between the void ray and oracle so they don't fade out of style. But it shouldn't be pigeonholed for only one use, so I added the energy transfer effect. The ability can be easily shutdown by all three races. Zerg can abduct to separate the void ray and oracle, Protoss and Terran can Feedback/EMP it.
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We're currently thinking the main issue with Entomb is that it decreases action. The more powerful this ability becomes, players are just required to stay in their bases.
We are trying our best to reevaluate Entomb and the Oracle in general, and this is one of our main focus points on our list of things to do.
-David Kim
They're finally getting it.
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Crossing my fingers that the oracle gets cut or completely changed.
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From David Kim, one hour ago
We've been working hard to address concerns on the Oracle. We've tried many different things on it and aren't completely satisfied with where it's at. We may need to delay the Oracle patch until next week depending on how this goes.
Just to keep everyone updated and to get more feedback on our direction here's what we're thinking:
1. We agree with our community that Entomb is not a spectator friendly ability because it's so easy to execute and is targeted at only 1 location (minerals).
2. We'd like to replace Entomb with a different ability. Something that makes use of the fast movement speed of the Oracle and serves as a constant threat to the enemy base until the enemy destroys the Oracles. This way, there can be a greater difference between amazing use of the Oracle vs. an average use.
3. Void Siphon has clarity issues in terms of how much minerals have been earned through the use of this ability.
4. Revelation we feel is in a good place. It is a powerful late game tool for checking exactly where the opponent's army is. At the same time, we feel this is more of a utility spell.
We're playing around with various ideas at the moment, and don't have specifics but our goal seems to be:
Spell 1: Keep Revelation as is as the scouting option.
Spell 2: Strong, repeatable harassing tool that has different degrees of success and makes good use of the fragile but fast movement speed of the Oracle.
Spell 3: Position dependent spell, combo with harassment spell, and/or support spell of some sorts.
SUCCESS
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EPT
