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On October 08 2012 14:56 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:46 Zergrusher wrote:On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 08 2012 14:20 Zergrusher wrote:On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing? If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is! Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask. I'm going to stop you right there. Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced. This is how you fix the infestor. Make fungul a 65% slowing spell Increase NP range to 8 Ok? Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems..... YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation. For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed) For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly) If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg. There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ. Think about this for a second, just think. NP went from 7 to 9 and now back to 7 8 is the perfect middle range, and is balanced. Also You can still build those units, you act like THERES NO ARMIES(or other units) IN BETWEEN. And about the blink stalkers.......... Remember that patch? well blink stalkers would still get rooted by fungul. And lol in HOTS, theres actaully less early all ins going on. So look PVZ with abduct and NP is fine. Both viable options, and both that are shut down by high templars... The main problem in PVZ is the mother ship. it should be removed, and the oracle should have the cloaking field. I already told How to fix zerg, and now I just explain how to make the oracle better and remove the stupid mothership gimmic. You don't need to put your posts in the form of a poem with giant spacing. Nor do you need to be condescending telling me to think. I also didn't say early all-ins, I'm talking about three base PvZ timings that hit before Hive, there are plenty of them. So why don't you stay on topic regarding Abduct rather than talking about all your wonderful balance changes that "fix" the game.
I did, Abduct is fine.
Knee I'm getting the suspicion you don't even have the HOTS beta or play WOL much.
Correct me If I am wrong but How can you claim something is OP if you yourself have never physically seen both sides?
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On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.
There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Colossi and STs useless against Zerg? Not a chance, sorry.
And anyway, Abduct and NP have the same problem: Use them, and the caster will probably die. Vipers are so squishy that they will probably die no matter what you do with them.
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On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing? If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is! Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask. Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
A ridiculous overstatement.
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Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
In fact I can already see swarms of Vipers rushing a Mothership late game the Protoss player frantically trying to feedback them all, and the Zerg only needs to lane one Abduct then NP it to end the game... reminds me of the Blue Flame Hellions prior to the nerf in TvT. People overbuilt them because you only needed to lane a few money shots to instantly win the game.
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On October 06 2012 06:06 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote:
What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units?
It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance. Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution. Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.
Could you imagine chain fungle on that why would u as a zerg not want that lol
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On October 08 2012 15:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
The Tempest does do something special: Kill Brood Lords. The reason Abduct + NP seems like a big problem is because the Mothership is a necessity in WoL PvZ. Hopefully, it won't be as important to the matchup when HotS rolls out.
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On October 08 2012 15:30 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 15:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...
And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...
The Tempest does do something special: Kill Brood Lords. The reason Abduct + NP seems like a big problem is because the Mothership is a necessity in WoL PvZ. Hopefully, it won't be as important to the matchup when HotS rolls out.
Consider this: A Viking does 14 DPS at 9 range vs Broods and costs 150/75 and 2 food. The Tempest does 15.5 DPS at 15 range vs Broods and costs 300/300 and 6 food. And of course Vikings can be built a lot faster.
Vikings are relatively cheap, build fast, don't require any special tech and deals nearly the same DPS to Broods as a Tempest. The Tempest isn't cheap in gas/minerals/food, doesn't build fast, requires a Fleet Beacon and only one can be built at a time from a Stargate. So the question here is that can you afford to add a bunch of 300/300 units to your deathball without gutting your deathball of other key units? Consider the fact that a single Mothership costs 400/400... Furthermore will the extra 6 range matter that much to justify the massive cost difference?
We'll see...
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wasnt mothership "Heroic"? make abduct dont work on heroic units, which is only mothership
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On October 06 2012 05:05 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote:
Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard. HotS Stargate, probably.
This sound like a goal the oracle should be looking at.
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I feel like the viper and the infestor synergise impossibly well.
Fungal + blinding cloud and abduct + np are terrifying combinations. I'm really not sure what would work against them.
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On October 08 2012 16:31 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 05:05 Crawdad wrote:On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote:
Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard. HotS Stargate, probably. This sound like a goal the oracle should be looking at.
How about: Entomb stops units from producing more units (Broodlords, infestor, carrier, widow mine, etc.)! There is very little point in entomb in the late game as it is.
On a more serious note, we still need to look closely at how the tempest works in the late game vs. zerg. I am sceptical, since you could just fly over and kill them with corruptors, but it may just be the unit protoss needs. Even if it isnt the unit protoss deserves.
Also, if zerg is forced to get some vipers, that will also make the overall death ball at least slightly weaker. Dont know if that is relevant.
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On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
The viper only has so much energy. Since the viper doesn't deal damage, you cannot have too many of them.
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On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing? If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is! Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units. It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask. Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.
You do realise vipers absolutely melt to thors and vikings?
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There is this thing called feedback which, I wanna say, has atleast similiar range to abduct. It's hard for toss for sure, but imo if you have enough templar it's fine.
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i LOVE abduct. it adds so much more micro on both sides. and no it does not destroy positional play. in fact it just makes positional play harder and increases the skill ceiling.
ghosts/viking/thor and HT/blink vs viper wars are gonna be awesome. positioning those vipercounters to protect the thors/tanks/colossi etc. will add nice dynamics on both sides.
dont forget vipers are hivetech so all the mentioned counters can easily be part of your army (or are anyway part of it like stalkers/thors).
btw: 1 feedback or 3 snipes instakill a 200 (!!!) gas viper which is equal to a colossus or thor and a lot more expensive than a tank for example.
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Agreed. Abduct is likely too strong vs both races.
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On October 08 2012 17:32 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing? If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is! Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units. It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask. Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls. You do realise vipers absolutely melt to thors and vikings?
In TvZ it may not be as much of a problem than in PvZ for the simple fact Terran doesn't depend on any single unit individually to hold the line against Brood/Infestor. So I am going to say I was wrong there.
But in PvZ Protoss does depend on the Mothership.
On October 08 2012 17:43 Lorch wrote:
There is this thing called feedback which, I wanna say, has atleast similiar range to abduct. It's hard for toss for sure, but imo if you have enough templar it's fine.
On October 08 2012 16:59 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls. The viper only has so much energy. Since the viper doesn't deal damage, you cannot have too many of them.
In WOL if you can land a NP on the Mothership and use up the energy of the Mothership that alone can be game ending, unless the Zerg makes a positioning mistake later or the Protoss had an advantage. So if you take the Mothership out the equation, a smaller Zerg force (food wise) can take down a larger Protoss force with Fungal Growth and Broods. Protoss has nothing cost efficient vs Brood/Infestor except the Archon Toliet, which is usually ridiculously cost efficient. If it wasn't this way then we'd see other options for combating Brood/Infestor, but there simply isn't any other good ones.
Adding in Abduct into the game would make it well worth it for Zerg players to overbuild Vipers and rush them at the Mothership as it moves forward to Vortex since you only need 1 Abduct to land so you can NP the Mothership and have a massive advantage since Zerg units are more cost efficient than Protoss unit. Feedback would work if it was an area of effect spell, but individually hitting a large number of Vipers all as soon as they come in range leaves huge room for a miss, because only 1 Viper needs to get into range, and if the range of Feedback is similar to Abduct, then the presence of Vipers forces the Mothership behind Templar, and then it can't get into position to Vortex for fear of Abduct, and then the Templar will get picked off by the Broods and Infestors.
So again, we are brought back to the Tempest, which does 1.5 more DPS to Broods than a single Viking... if Protoss can battle Brood/Infestor with it then everything is fine, but I am strongly doubting it will be effective with such low DPS for the cost.
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tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).
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On October 09 2012 00:34 Decendos wrote:
tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).
I was watching GGzerg stream last night (the OP) and his opponent built many Tempest's in order to counteract his Brood/Infestor/Swarm Host/Corrupter army. I didn't work.
Without the Mothership, Zerg can simply mass a huge swell of Corrupters and just rush them at the Tempests. It was the same issue the Carrier had in late game PvZ when it tried to counteract Broods. With the Mothership if your opponent overbuilt Corrupters then you'd simply Vortex the ball of Corrupters then kill them off. And without Corruptors supporting, your Colossus could begin zoning out the Infestors (or just killing them) and killing Broodlings and Infested Terrans quickly allowing Stalkers and Voids to close in and deal with the Brood Lords and remaining Infestors.
But Protoss has no real effective AOE anti-air to deal with mass Corrupter. So again, Zerg could overbuild Corrupters and rely on the cost efficency of a smaller Brood/Infestor force vs whatever Protoss has left after the Tempests die off.
High Templar could probably protect the Tempests with Storm vs Mass Corrupter and Archons would be effective too. The problem then with Tempest/High Templar is that you wouldn't having much gas to afford much else, so you'd have a Stalker ball in addition to those units so Storm would also have to clear our the Broodlings, and your effectiveness vs Mass Roach would be questionable. You could probably afford to add in a bunch of Immortals though...
Anyway you can't kite anything all day long. On his stream he just slowly pushed the Protoss until he reached their base, and then killed them, Tempests kiting all the way. The problem was that the Corrupters tanked the Tempests as the Zerg advanced, the Tempest lacks the DPS to really punish them quickly. Furthermore the Tempests would all shoot at the closest target in range and it would often be a Broodling so they would overkill a Broodling then have to wait 3.3 seconds before they had another shot. Vikings fire faster, don't overkill as much, and can only hit air units, alleviating this issue.
I can't wait to get my beta key, should be in 5 days or less...
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On October 09 2012 00:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:34 Decendos wrote:
tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.
hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro). I was watching GGzerg stream last night (the OP) and his opponent built many Tempest's in order to counteract his Brood/Infestor/Swarm Host/Corrupter army. Without the Mothership, Zerg can simply mass a huge swell of Corrupters and just rush them at the Tempests. It was the same issue the Carrier had in late game PvZ when it tried to counteract Broods. With the Mothership if your opponent overbuilt Corrupters then you'd simply Vortex the ball of Corrupters then kill them off. And without Corruptors supporting, your Colossus could begin zoning out the Infestors (or just killing them) and killing Broodlings and Infested Terrans quickly allowing Stalkers and Voids to close in and deal with the Brood Lords and remaining Infestors. But Protoss has no real effective AOE anti-air to deal with mass Corrupter. So again, Zerg could overbuild Corrupters and rely on the cost efficency of a smaller Brood/Infestor force vs whatever Protoss has left after the Tempests die off. High Templar could probably protect the Tempests with Storm vs Mass Corrupter and Archons would be effective too. The problem then with Tempest/High Templar is that you wouldn't having much gas to afford much else, so you'd have a Stalker ball in addition to those units so Storm would also have to clear our the Broodlings, and your effectiveness vs Mass Roach would be questionable. You could probably afford to add in a bunch of Immortals though... I can't wait to get my beta key, should be in 5 days or less...
you already gave the answer. mass tempest just sucks (which is nice: they should be a support unit not a main army unit. even bowder said you will probably build 2-4 tempest and if you mass air you mass carrier + support). so just go for 3-5 tempest and then support. the standard stalker colossi archon HT ball with 3-4 tempests (instead of MS) will be able to fight BL infestor (with some kiting) and is a superduper anticorruptor composition. tempest has lot of hp, corruptors have a very low range + archons + storm + stalker rape them. so its not that easy to snipe tempests especially if they are parked defensively over cannons.
i think it could even work out the other way and the actual tempest + support might be OP so they have to nerf tempest range or make it a lot slower so you cant kite that much. we will just have to wait at least 1-2 months after HOTS is finished and see how it works out. it is a lot too early to tell if tempest is too weak, too strong or fine.
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EPT
