|
On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 14:20 Zergrusher wrote:On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing? If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is! Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask. I'm going to stop you right there. Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced. This is how you fix the infestor. Make fungul a 65% slowing spell Increase NP range to 8 Ok? Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems..... YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation. For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed) For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly) If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg. There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.
Abduct costs 75 energy. Blinding Cloud costs 100 energy Vipers cost 3 supply.
In order to abduct 10 units (considering 2 Blinding Clouds), Zerg would need x amount of Vipers.
75(10)=200x-200 -> 750=200x-200 -> 950=200x -> 4.75=x -> round up to 5
5 Vipers with max energy, so 15 supply. Easily covered by the Spine Crawler cancelling trick.
The issue with Vipers isn't abduct, it's either energy or supply. If you change the amount of supply up to 4, then 20 supply. That seems a bit more realistic to me, but it's a bit too much supply imo.
If you change the energy cost from 75 to 100 instead, then:
1000=200x-200 -> 1200=200x -> 6=x -> 6 Vipers
6 Vipers with max energy, so 18 supply. 24 supply possibly, if both changes are combined. I don't like the look of 24 at all, but 18 seems good.
Oh, and maybe bump Infestor up to 3 supply. That would make the Infestor a lot less mass-able, like what Blizz did to the Tank.
These are all gigantic changes, though. Just another thing for Blizz to mess around with since it's beta. Even then, it's not definite that Zerg deathballs, let alone Vipers/Abduct, are OP quite yet.
On October 08 2012 15:00 Crawdad wrote:
And anyway, Abduct and NP have the same problem: Use them, and the caster will probably die. Vipers are so squishy that they will probably die no matter what you do with them.
NP has 7 range, Abduct has 9 range. Big difference there.
Plus, the Viper is an air unit while the Infestor is not. It makes Vipers worse against Terran, but better against Toss.
|
I will aggre with something like psionic unit cant be pull like archon pure energy cant be pull or mothership big to much to be pulled by one viper this game is scifi but dont mess with logic  yes i also aggre pull massive is important .
|
How about making abduct pull massive units only half of the maximum ability range towards the viper? So if you tried to abduct a Thor, for example, it would be pulled 4,5 units towards the viper instead to the viper's location?
Makes sense.
|
On October 06 2012 02:06 GGzerG wrote:
I have been playing around with the Viper, and I noticed you can use the Abduct ability on the Protoss Mothership, even though I am a Zerg player and I think that this is awesome that you can abduct a Mothership, but All it takes is a few abducts to throw the mothership into your army, and then neural parasite it, then you have an easy huge advantage over the protoss army, being able to easily vortex his army and keep your units cloaked,I have
already done it several times.
I don't know but to me this just seems way to strong, what do you guys think? I just think that the Abduct ability maybe shouldn't work on massive units, but then you wouldn't be able to abduct colossi, so maybe Blizzard should change it so you just cannot abduct the mothership?
Discuss.
Can you vortex while the units flying through the air when abducted ?
|
Abduct is fine imho.
The problem is that PvZ lategame is ALL about hitting the Vortex if the game is close. So if you abduct a collosi it's bad for the Toss and good for Zerg but usually not what decides the winner. But if the Mothership dies the battle is lost for Protoss.
So the problem isn't abduct, which is totally fine. The problem is that lategame PvZ is about Vortex. I hope that the Tempest will be changed so that Protoss gets another viable lategame option against the typical Broodlord/Infestor. Maybe some changes to the Carrier will help, i don't know. But the key should be to not make Protoss that Vortex reliant.
|
Imo the problem here is that in the lategame everything hinges around this 1 unit, not that the abduct or neural is too strong(or atleast there should be some more testing). I think the abduct is really great against colossi, which is probably the main reason it was put in, but again, if the colossus wasent such a rediculous threat (when we dont have BL), would we really need the abduct...
It just seems too early to conclude that abduct is too strong. Yea sure in this one instance there is going to be some balancing work to be done, but for all the other situations it seems to pretty much do what it is supposed to do, and doesnt look that OP (from my newbie point of view)
|
On October 08 2012 13:45 Siracuz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 06:06 Adonminus wrote:On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote:
What about this:
Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units?
It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?
The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.
Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.
I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance. Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution. Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers. Don't be so quick to blow the OP whistle, esp about the biggest "maybe" I wrote. a) Zerg deals with Colossi just fine right now, and they don't stack b) 1 Infestor will kill all of those Voids stacked up on one point c) I didn't specify but I didn't mean that Archons wouldn't collide with themselves d) That army which wouldn't be effective in the first place would never see the light of day in a match due to build times and gas intensity. I'm going to just go ahead and post on Blizzard forums, as I think it may be a good fix, but here's the jist: 1-Archons don't collide with Broodlings and Zerglings. 2-Debatable but Fungal does not lock them down. They are made of gasses and Massive. Not colliding with Broodlings alone may not be enough, but this might be too much in certain situations. Example: if they're chain fungaled, the fix does nothing, but if Zerg doesn't have something to deal with them quick like Roaches or enough Broodlord dps, it becomes too much. 3-Neural Parasite would be the go to ability to deal with Archons (which works great mid-game but rarely seen); right now all 3 Infestor abilities are very good against them. They can't kill Infested Terran if they can't move. With these changes tested, Mothership Vortex can be adjusted or downright removed for all I care. It's the most dependent ability in the matchup and something needs to be done with it.
This would make mass archon literally unbeatable for Zerg... Not only do they do bonus damage to every Zerg unit but with no way to hold them back with lings, brood lings or even fungals it would literally leave only one option of going roach and even this would only work midgame... To say you could neural parasite every single archon is just unrealistic... Not to mention if fungals and broodlings don't stop the archons you could literally use 1 free archon to walk right up to the investors and kill any whom are stuck attached to an archon with neural
I understand the lore aspect of what you are saying however I just think this would make literally the most unstoppable unit against Zerg
|
Hive tech man... it's like saying BLs are strong OF COURSE THEY'RE STRONG but if you can finish the game before 20 min or have a bunch of HT which is Toss end game. Toss these days are buliding too many archons thinking that the toilet will retrieve insta gg but that's not the case in HoTs. Gotta have more HT and storm/feedback the shit outta everything really does wonders vs zerg.
|
On October 09 2012 04:29 BadAssJ wrote:
Hive tech man... it's like saying BLs are strong OF COURSE THEY'RE STRONG but if you can finish the game before 20 min or have a bunch of HT which is Toss end game. Toss these days are buliding too many archons thinking that the toilet will retrieve insta gg but that's not the case in HoTs. Gotta have more HT and storm/feedback the shit outta everything really does wonders vs zerg.
You also cannot just bank on money storms when Zerg is camping on spine, spore, swarm host, infestor , broodlords, speedlings , ect... also if u overmake HT's u can just spread / split banelings and roll over the toss easily...
|
This whole thread is simply an outgrowth of the fact that SC2 is quite unstable compared to BW, in that just a few large units will determine the outcome of battles. Colossi are the paradigm case for protoss- their existence is a huge problem for the opponent, much more so than other protoss assets. And because the protoss army is dependent on a few colossi, then if the other player can neutralize or mitigate the colossi, then suddenly protoss is in a bind.
|
I suppose it is too strong ZvP, I agree.
As an aside, I really really despise the abduct ability.
Binding cloud is neat (and similar to dark swarm) in that the opponent can trade focus, clicks/actions, to mostly deal with the loss of range with micro by moving units outside the cloud. Abduct feels like a "lolz i have your unit now!" ability.
|
I think the Viper's Abduct grab (the distance that brings units toward) depend on the kind of unit it's bringing forward. For example, a light unit would travel farther than a massive unit. I also feel that abduct is silly for a unit like the Mothership. There is already the peril of Neural Parasite: abduct just makes it too easy when it's so important. But there is a lot of time for discovery ahead, so I'm not honestly worried that much.
|
I have always thought that the Viper should not be able to abduct massive, it would be yet another unit from the Infestation Pit (+Hive) that does very good against Toss. With it being able to abduct massive units it renders corrupters useless, and it means Zerg could take a lot later spire than they usually do and have a stronger mid game with Vipers.
There still would be other key units that abduct would be useful against, Templars, Immortals, Sentries (although not much of an issue when zerg has Hive).
Edit: Also why was the Viper even necessary? If you look at the units that have been added to the other races, they all have the intention to fill a gap that was in WoL. Protoss need an early defensive units, bam Mothership Core; Protoss need an harassment unit, Oracle; Protoss need a way to deal with Broodlords, the Tempest. All units that are there to fill a gap, however for the viper there was no gap to be filled.
Abduct is just very harsh against Protoss, considering it is a race that relies heavily on 'key' units to have a fighting chance, these key units can all be neutralized by the Viper.
|
Unrealated to if it is balanced or not (i said before what i think), i really dislike the abduct spell. Pulling units around just seems weird and not really fun to me, neither while playing nor watching. But we will see, maybe I get used to it.
|
Vipers are like glass. As long as Blizz continues to balance their fragility with their powerful abilities, they will remain an excellent addition to HotS. They create interesting micro-intensive battles, something SC2 needs more of, not less.
1. Vipers move to front of engagement, attempting to abduct desirable units (colossi / thor / tank / immo)
2. Opponent moves forward with small clump of stimmed rines or stalkers to focus down Viper(s), while retreating desirable unit
3. Zerg pulls back Vipers
4. Repeat
This is in additionan to caster micro, concave creation, etc.
They are also Hive tech which, even given Z's penchant for rushing to it, isn't exactly speedily arrived at. I think they are the most interesting addition to HotS and I believe they are fine as is. If they prove too powerful, changing numbers around should be a suitable solution -- I think their design is solid.
|
Tempests need some small splash and I think they would be okay.
|
Solution: Remove mothership from game. Re-balance late-game PvZ accordingly.
|
On October 09 2012 07:33 kcdc wrote:
Solution: Remove mothership from game. Re-balance late-game PvZ accordingly.
But the Mothership is cool. =(
Bring back the Planet Cracker and see if they want to bring it close to their army afterward.
|
You can't just tweak abduct and make it work. It is a fundamentally flawed design that disallows the opponent from microing defensively. Making it weaker would make it worthless, you have to make it DEFENDABLE, not weaker.
|
so defend? vipers come so late that ghosts, ht, stalker, marines, vikings, thors, widow mines and maybe even tempests and carrier are out + static defense like turrets and cannons. there is just SO MUCH available to kill the viper that it definetly is defendable and opens a lot of micro on both sides --> awesome design.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
