Viper's Abduct too strong ZvP?

On October 06 2012 05:03 Promethelax wrote:
Hopefully some P pro will figure out how to combat late game zerg without the mothership and that can become the metagame standard.

On October 06 2012 05:05 Crawdad wrote:


HotS Stargate, probably.

On October 06 2012 05:27 gedatsu wrote:
Use phase shield.

On October 06 2012 05:55 Siracuz wrote:
What about this:

Fungal is enough to stop an army, so why do Broodlings also prevent movement of units?
It's pretty crazy how units like the Archon and maybe even the Stalker get caught up on little Broodlings they could step over. I mean, the Archon floats, and it get's stuck on a few Broodlings that it could fly right over?

The problem with Broodlord/Infestor is that you cannot move towards it. Eliminate Broodlings locking down certain units, and I don't think the Vortex will be absolutely necessary.

Archons are etheral, and maybe for that matter should not even have unit collision with any unit.

I hope I didn't overlook something important about my point but I don't really have time to sit here and contemplate every unit vs the Broodlord in terms of balance.

On October 06 2012 06:06 Adonminus wrote:

Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.

Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.

On October 08 2012 14:01 MasterCynical wrote:
the only thing im worried about is abduct vs motherships and mothership cores since being a hero unit, it would cripple the protoss deathball too much. Wait... isn't that a good thing?

On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:


If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!

Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.

It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.

On October 08 2012 14:20 Zergrusher wrote:



I'm going to stop you right there.


Fix the infestor before touching with the viper.. which is balanced.

This is how you fix the infestor.

Make fungul a 65% slowing spell

Increase NP range to 8



Ok?



Now if zergs AA is weaker or they have deathball problems.....

YOU BUFF the hydra and ultralisk for compensation.


For the hydralisk Bring it back to WOL beta stats( look up the hydralisks patch history, those 2 nerfs it got need to be un-nerfed)

For the ultralisk Increase the damage to 20(+20 vs armored) and increase the splash damage to 50%(Because the ultralisk has alot of problems, doing these changes would help it greatly)

On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:


If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.

There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.

On October 08 2012 14:46 Zergrusher wrote:



Think about this for a second, just think.

NP went from 7 to 9 and now back to 7

8 is the perfect middle range, and is balanced.


Also You can still build those units, you act like THERES NO ARMIES(or other units) IN BETWEEN.

And about the blink stalkers.......... Remember that patch? well blink stalkers would still get rooted by fungul.


And lol in HOTS, theres actaully less early all ins going on.


So look PVZ with abduct and NP is fine.

Both viable options, and both that are shut down by high templars...


The main problem in PVZ is the mother ship.

it should be removed, and the oracle should have the cloaking field.


I already told How to fix zerg, and now I just explain how to make the oracle better and remove the stupid mothership gimmic.

On October 08 2012 14:56 BronzeKnee wrote:


You don't need to put your posts in the form of a poem with giant spacing. Nor do you need to be condescending telling me to think. I also didn't say early all-ins, I'm talking about three base PvZ timings that hit before Hive, there are plenty of them.

So why don't you stay on topic regarding Abduct rather than talking about all your wonderful balance changes that "fix" the game.

On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:
If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.

There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.

On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:


If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!

Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.

It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.

Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.

On October 06 2012 06:06 Adonminus wrote:

Having no collision with any unit? Imagine now archon colossi with some void ray army, it'll be stacked into 1 single point. That's not a solution.

Back on topic, I think mothership should also some kind of immunity against this maybe like ultralisk have immunity to slow. Mothership could have immunity to abduct. If not we can always use hts to feedback those vipers.

On October 08 2012 15:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
Time will prove me wrong or right, same for you guys. We'll see...

And I play plenty of Starcraft to know that late game with the Infestor/Brood deathball that Zerg can suicide a bunch of Vipers to get the get the Abduct they need for a NP on the Mothership, and then Protoss is completely ruined... unless the Tempest does something special...

On October 08 2012 15:30 Crawdad wrote:


The Tempest does do something special: Kill Brood Lords. The reason Abduct + NP seems like a big problem is because the Mothership is a necessity in WoL PvZ. Hopefully, it won't be as important to the matchup when HotS rolls out.

On October 06 2012 05:05 Crawdad wrote:


HotS Stargate, probably.

On October 08 2012 16:31 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:


This sound like a goal the oracle should be looking at.

On October 08 2012 14:15 BronzeKnee wrote:


If you're a Zerg player and you want to win 100% of your games, of course it is!

Fact is Abduct will kill Mech late game by tearing apart Siege Tank positions and do the same to Protoss by pulling in the Mothership. Abduct + Neural is better than having a Replicant who can Replicate massive units.

It has to go, late game Zerg deathballs are difficult enough to stop, but doing it with Bio and Gateway units alone is too much to ask.

Not to mention it waters down the game. If Abduct is useful then people simply won't build units that are worth Abducting, so we'll see Mass Blink Stalker armies or Marine/Marauder balls.

On October 08 2012 17:32 schmutttt wrote:


You do realise vipers absolutely melt to thors and vikings?

On October 08 2012 17:43 Lorch wrote:
There is this thing called feedback which, I wanna say, has atleast similiar range to abduct. It's hard for toss for sure, but imo if you have enough templar it's fine.

On October 08 2012 16:59 [F_]aths wrote:

The viper only has so much energy. Since the viper doesn't deal damage, you cannot have too many of them.

On October 09 2012 00:34 Decendos wrote:
tempest will be awesome vs BLs. you can even kite BLs all day long since they are faster. and if zerg has to engage your army (with the tempests) without BLs they will have a superhard time. so tempest are not there to mass but just build like 3 of them to snipe some BLs or infestors while kiting and decimating before the actual fight happens.

hopefully archon toilet will be removed with the introduction of tempest (and hopefully carrier micro).

On October 09 2012 00:49 BronzeKnee wrote:


I was watching GGzerg stream last night (the OP) and his opponent built many Tempest's in order to counteract his Brood/Infestor/Swarm Host/Corrupter army.

Without the Mothership, Zerg can simply mass a huge swell of Corrupters and just rush them at the Tempests. It was the same issue the Carrier had in late game PvZ when it tried to counteract Broods. With the Mothership if your opponent overbuilt Corrupters then you'd simply Vortex the ball of Corrupters then kill them off. And without Corruptors supporting, your Colossus could begin zoning out the Infestors (or just killing them) and killing Broodlings and Infested Terrans quickly allowing Stalkers and Voids to close in and deal with the Brood Lords and remaining Infestors.

But Protoss has no real effective AOE anti-air to deal with mass Corrupter. So again, Zerg could overbuild Corrupters and rely on the cost efficency of a smaller Brood/Infestor force vs whatever Protoss has left after the Tempests die off.

High Templar could probably protect the Tempests with Storm vs Mass Corrupter and Archons would be effective too. The problem then with Tempest/High Templar is that you wouldn't having much gas to afford much else, so you'd have a Stalker ball in addition to those units so Storm would also have to clear our the Broodlings, and your effectiveness vs Mass Roach would be questionable. You could probably afford to add in a bunch of Immortals though...

I can't wait to get my beta key, should be in 5 days or less...

On October 08 2012 14:34 BronzeKnee wrote:


If you increase NP range and leave Abduct in the game it doesn't change the fact that Terran and Protoss can't build any unit worth Abducting and NPing. No Thors, Colossus, Immortals, Siege Tanks, Motherships, Battle Cruisers, ect... because if they did build them they would just add to the Swarm. And if Fungal doesn't root units, then Blink Stalkers will walk all over Zerg.

There is going to be a huge increase in pre-Hive all-ins if Abduct isn't removed in PvZ.

On October 08 2012 15:00 Crawdad wrote:
And anyway, Abduct and NP have the same problem: Use them, and the caster will probably die. Vipers are so squishy that they will probably die no matter what you do with them.

On October 08 2012 13:45 Siracuz wrote:


Don't be so quick to blow the OP whistle, esp about the biggest "maybe" I wrote.

a) Zerg deals with Colossi just fine right now, and they don't stack
b) 1 Infestor will kill all of those Voids stacked up on one point
c) I didn't specify but I didn't mean that Archons wouldn't collide with themselves
d) That army which wouldn't be effective in the first place would never see the light of day in a match due to build times and gas intensity.

I'm going to just go ahead and post on Blizzard forums, as I think it may be a good fix, but here's the jist:

1-Archons don't collide with Broodlings and Zerglings.

2-Debatable but Fungal does not lock them down. They are made of gasses and Massive. Not colliding with Broodlings alone may not be enough, but this might be too much in certain situations. Example: if they're chain fungaled, the fix does nothing, but if Zerg doesn't have something to deal with them quick like Roaches or enough Broodlord dps, it becomes too much.

3-Neural Parasite would be the go to ability to deal with Archons (which works great mid-game but rarely seen); right now all 3 Infestor abilities are very good against them. They can't kill Infested Terran if they can't move.

With these changes tested, Mothership Vortex can be adjusted or downright removed for all I care. It's the most dependent ability in the matchup and something needs to be done with it.

On October 09 2012 07:33 kcdc wrote:
Solution: Remove mothership from game. Re-balance late-game PvZ accordingly.

On October 12 2012 02:15 BronzeKnee wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF3v2R6wOXo

And this is exactly what I was talking about.

Vortex is honestly a bad ability, because it creates dumb game ending situations either way.

However the way Zerg works with Larva (instant re-max with whatever units you want), with the units they have, Protoss is going to need something as powerful as Ghosts with 45 damage Snipe to even have a chance late game without Vortex.

And no friends, the Tempest is not the solution. Even if they are out front, if multiple Vipers are rushing the Mothership they'll focus down one Viper and overkill it, while the rest are able to Abduct the Mothership.

On October 09 2012 05:34 ledarsi wrote:
This whole thread is simply an outgrowth of the fact that SC2 is quite unstable compared to BW, in that just a few large units will determine the outcome of battles. Colossi are the paradigm case for protoss- their existence is a huge problem for the opponent, much more so than other protoss assets. And because the protoss army is dependent on a few colossi, then if the other player can neutralize or mitigate the colossi, then suddenly protoss is in a bind.

On October 12 2012 03:19 ClanRH.TV wrote:
Check back in 10 years and see how its doing.

Anyway, this thread is an outgrowth of peoples impatience rather than instability. If something doesn't seem perfect at first sight, people automatically say "NERF/BUFF IT!".... No, that is not the answer and this thread (and many other threads on TL), courtesy of the OP, is taking the wrong approach to the problem. Try to think of CURRENT solutions to the problem instead of wanting immediate changes. Wait for it to play out and then make changes if it won't work out.

On October 12 2012 03:19 ClanRH.TV wrote:

Check back in 10 years and see how its doing.

Anyway, this thread is an outgrowth of peoples impatience rather than instability. If something doesn't seem perfect at first sight, people automatically say "NERF/BUFF IT!".... No, that is not the answer and this thread (and many other threads on TL), courtesy of the OP, is taking the wrong approach to the problem. Try to think of CURRENT solutions to the problem instead of wanting immediate changes. Wait for it to play out and then make changes if it won't work out.