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Most players cannot see what the devs post in the fabled "hidden pro forum", but one very interesting post has been revealed on Reddit, and it concerns a possible change to the Widow mine.
David Kim said:
But we are exploring ways to make the Widow Mine and more full unit than a one time suicide unit this week. Currently thinking on a version that rebuild itself over and over so that you don't lose the mine unless the other player kills it.
And here's the source. This obviously goes back to Dayvie's goal for the Widow mine to become a "core unit", and I personally think that the "Repurposed Shredder" thread may have had some influence on this decision.
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Holy HELL that'd be absolutely INSANE!
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Sounds nice, will muta harass still work? I am not worried about ground dmg, but seems pretty OP for air.
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imo its gonna be to strong
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I liked the original idea in the repurposed shredder thread. I think this idea is also pretty awesome. Not only does it improve widow mines such that they aren't a poor-man's spider man, it also differentiates them from banelings.
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On October 05 2012 09:40 Zaurus wrote:
Sounds nice, will muta harass still work? I am not worried about ground dmg, but seems pretty OP for air.
That does seem like a problem. It may also make turrets less necessary, though, then again, you may not want supply sitting by the mineral line. I think we'll have to wait and see how it works.
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Like a Reaver-Spidermine hybrid, the two best units in BW missing from WOL 
Hopefully it works out.
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I like the idea, interested to see what they come up with. Balancing a unit that costs minerals, gas, factory build time and costs 2 supply for something that will is meant to be suicided is extremely hard.
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This mine tweaking is getting out of hand.
Leave it as a strategic weapon and replace warhound with something.
Turning it into a unit will lead to a balancing nightmare.
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Interesting idea. Didn't the Thor use to rebuild itself like this just before the beta started? You had to kill it then kill the reassembling parts before it turned back into a unit? Good to see them reusing old abandoned ideas in a way that might actually work.
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On October 05 2012 10:07 DeCoup wrote:
Interesting idea. Didn't the Thor use to rebuild itself like this just before the beta started? You had to kill it then kill the reassembling parts before it turned back into a unit? Good to see them reusing old abandoned ideas in a way that might actually work.
It was built w/ SCV's (instead of a factory) lol.
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On October 05 2012 10:06 pmp10 wrote:
This mine tweaking is getting out of hand.
Leave it as a strategic weapon and replace warhound with something.
Turning it into a unit will lead to a balancing nightmare.
That's the point of the beta. They can give it a new build every week for the next 4 months till they have the stable core-unit they want it to be.
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On October 05 2012 10:18 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 10:06 pmp10 wrote:
This mine tweaking is getting out of hand.
Leave it as a strategic weapon and replace warhound with something.
Turning it into a unit will lead to a balancing nightmare. That's the point of the beta. They can give it a new build every week for the next 4 months till they have the stable core-unit they want it to be.
I disagree.
Widow mine by design needs to be burrowed to work and has limited range.
No stat tweaking will make it balanced as a unit.
They may certainly make it more powerful but it will lead to balancing problems down the road and will turn terran into even more of a mess.
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On October 05 2012 10:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 10:07 DeCoup wrote:
Interesting idea. Didn't the Thor use to rebuild itself like this just before the beta started? You had to kill it then kill the reassembling parts before it turned back into a unit? Good to see them reusing old abandoned ideas in a way that might actually work. It was built w/ SCV's (instead of a factory) lol.
single player upgrade, so its not abandoned. Anyway someone played to much borderlands 2 from the devs getting this idea lol. I wouldn't really mind if they make the mine rebuild itself as it would save factory time and movement time. But it sounds really useless overall just saving you one click thats it.
Just bring back the damn shredder, immunize floating and flying units. And remodel the thors 250mm into an implosion grenade that pushes units together <3
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Canada11349 Posts
Still trying to fit the re-build itself idea in somewhere. Wasn't that originally an idea for the Thor?
edit
nvm. Someone else already said that. I can't believe I was that lazy 
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On October 05 2012 10:27 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 10:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 05 2012 10:07 DeCoup wrote:
Interesting idea. Didn't the Thor use to rebuild itself like this just before the beta started? You had to kill it then kill the reassembling parts before it turned back into a unit? Good to see them reusing old abandoned ideas in a way that might actually work. It was built w/ SCV's (instead of a factory) lol. single player upgrade, so its not abandoned. Anyway someone played to much borderlands 2 from the devs getting this idea lol. I wouldn't really mind if they make the mine rebuild itself as it would save factory time and movement time. But it sounds really useless overall just saving you one click thats it.
It really depends on the details... if each mine can produce more mines then each one is basically its own production facilitiy
The details aren't out yet, but I'm imagining it be something a Reaver (since they are a Scarab factory)/Spidermine hybrid.
Edit: The shredder is awful... please don't EVER suggest bringing it back.
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So now the mine is basically a burrowed unit which fires huge AoE attacks with an extremely long cooldown. Actually a very interesting idea I think.
edit: OH GOD TERRAN CLOAKED REAVERS...
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rebuild?.....on a suicide unit? it would have to have such a damage nerf that it would be nearly unusable
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On October 05 2012 10:33 SuperYo1000 wrote:
rebuild?.....on a suicide unit? it would have to have such a damage nerf that it would be nearly unusable
You are jumping to conclusions. You don't even know the cost/time/supply to rebuild yet...
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On October 05 2012 10:33 SuperYo1000 wrote:
rebuild?.....on a suicide unit? it would have to have such a damage nerf that it would be nearly unusable
It's not really a suicide unit anymore, LOL.
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This is interesting,a nice alternative to making it 1 supply or less.
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Hmmm, interesting. It maintains the usefulness of the unit by allowing it to scale with 200/200 - yet the supply cost would make it so you cant really enmass the mines. I for one look forward to seeing how it may play out in the early/late game.
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Sounds like a Swarm Host. Can they just stick it on a unit already?
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On October 05 2012 10:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 10:27 FeyFey wrote:On October 05 2012 10:13 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 05 2012 10:07 DeCoup wrote:
Interesting idea. Didn't the Thor use to rebuild itself like this just before the beta started? You had to kill it then kill the reassembling parts before it turned back into a unit? Good to see them reusing old abandoned ideas in a way that might actually work. It was built w/ SCV's (instead of a factory) lol. single player upgrade, so its not abandoned. Anyway someone played to much borderlands 2 from the devs getting this idea lol. I wouldn't really mind if they make the mine rebuild itself as it would save factory time and movement time. But it sounds really useless overall just saving you one click thats it. It really depends on the details... if each mine can produce more mines then each one is basically its own production facilitiy The details aren't out yet, but I'm imagining it be something a Reaver (since they are a Scarab factory)/Spidermine hybrid.
Would be good to see if they finally manage to implement the Reaver into Terran right, Raven failed abit at that after they had to nerf the seeker missile. I deleted the part where I suggested to give the mine a storage of 5 and a few reaver upgrades. The mine would lack the range to be a cool Reaver.
I would dislike if they turn it into a mine production unit though, would be annoying to see 2 races being able to produce free units on mass. Only reason mass auto-turrets doesn't work is the lack of static defense that doesn't cost supply for Terrans if you leave the PF aside and the fact that the turrets don't benefit from attack upgrades.
But lets see what they will do out of it. Any aoe unit that actually works is fine for me on the terran side. But I actually would prefer a useful ground to air attack on a unit that survives a direct aoe spell hit.
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I love how the everyone complains that blizzard is being uncreative and then as soon as blizzard proposes a new idea everyone is immediatly saying it is going to be OP/Useless.
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I wish they weren't so damn stubborn. I'm still amazed they removed the Warhound after all the constant criticism and how broken it was despite how hard they tried to push it onto the players, so all hope has not left me. I wonder if they will ever give up the silly idea of the widow mine being a 'core' mech unit. TANKS should be the core mech unit ffs...
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If this change is implemented, Blizzard please change the concept of the mine from explosive device to an electronic pulse device. This way it doesn't need to repair itself, but can just be reused until it dies.
This because the idea of a self-repairing explosive mine is absurd. It makes zero logical sense and is just stupid. It's debatable whether such a device existing is even possible.. It definitely wouldnt be an efficient weapon design. At a certain point it's hard to get into the game when the units are not feasable for being real.
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I really like this idea. Im imagining they redo the mine visually so they have four larger legs that support the body of the widow mine. When it activates, the mine pops out of the ground, revealing itself, fires its main "chassis" at the unit, leaving its four legs remaining in the ground, but visible so that they may be killed and the WM may die. But, if the WM is left unattacked, after a while the legs pull themselves together and weld a "chassis" back on again.
Such a cool idea. First one I really really like from blizzard in hots.
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IMO, this is a great idea because of this: the Widow Mine's ability to re-position itself has caused an inherent conflict between its defensive power and offensive power. Any Widow Mine that is sufficiently cost-efficient to work as a defensive minefield becomes annoyingly strong when used offensively, causing unintentional consequences. (ie hellion + widow mine rush)
However, a Widow Mine that can rebuild after exploding can be tuned very differently for offensive and defensive usage. Re-build is highly unlikely to be useful for offensive Mine usage, because enemy units can kill it while rebuilding. If the mine is too strong offensively and too weak defensively, you can increase Factory cost, Factory build time, and damage, while greatly decreasing the Re-Build cost and buildtime to compensate.
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Oh come on, it's NOT a burrow reaver.
It's a less mobile vulture with 3 mines at one time.
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United States33360 Posts
sounds like a reaver mine
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Hmm, I think that'd be pretty awesome TBH.
It'd offer actual space control, and not just temporary control that can killed by sending lings one at a time.
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On October 05 2012 11:33 Waxangel wrote:
sounds like a reaver mine
I've already made that connection buddy.
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Seems pretty cool, regardless of balance.
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On October 05 2012 11:37 ClysmiC wrote:
Hmm, I think that'd be pretty awesome TBH.
It'd offer actual space control, and not just temporary control that can killed by sending lings one at a time.
Sending lings one at a time still make u waste the "mine" if you do not control them manually.
From the description, it seems to function like a reaver albeit it needs to be burrowed and it can only hold 1 "scarab" at a time.
Not sure if they allow for auto rebuild though.. That would be quite strong. Maybe something like how interceptors are done? No auto when built so user must right click to activate auto build?
Great idea from Blizz.. See how it pans out.
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This idea is just completely ridiculous, whats the point of it being a mine and exploding anymore?
Its just for aesthetics, its like saying every time the siege tank fires, it explodes but rebuilds in time for the next shot.
don't be fooled.
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On October 05 2012 11:25 HumpingHydra wrote:
I really like this idea. Im imagining they redo the mine visually so they have four larger legs that support the body of the widow mine. When it activates, the mine pops out of the ground, revealing itself, fires its main "chassis" at the unit, leaving its four legs remaining in the ground, but visible so that they may be killed and the WM may die. But, if the WM is left unattacked, after a while the legs pull themselves together and weld a "chassis" back on again.
Such a cool idea. First one I really really like from blizzard in hots.
This sounds rad, but I wonder where the raw materials are coming from, LOL.
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How about simply having a unit that LAYS MULTIPLE MINES? Rather than having a retarded mine that blows itself up and puts itself back together?
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cool idea. im for it. to kill it you would have to win the battle.
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On October 05 2012 11:50 ledarsi wrote:
How about simply having a unit that LAYS MULTIPLE MINES? Rather than having a retarded mine that blows itself up and puts itself back together?
Yeah, my idea was to have it be able to lay multiple mines, with a maximum number at a time, much like a reaver or carrier, but limited to within a distance of where the thing is deployed, and retracted if it unburrows I guess. Seems like that would be the least awkward thing to do.
Also if you had to buy the actual mine layer thingy and then spend money on each mine I think it would be a lot easier to balance.
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So...
Where is the micro?
Where is the added depth in gameplay?
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This sounds very exciting. I am interested to see how this plays out.
To all those protesting, I think you misunderstand the point of beta. Blizzard should be trying crazy things to improve game design and make it more interesting. Also, you have no idea what they're going to do so you can't know whether it will be good.
I remember when HotS first came out people actually said widow mine was OP. If you haven't used it, don't make blanket statements off your knee-jerk reaction.
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On October 05 2012 11:59 Belha wrote:
So...
Where is the micro?
Where is the added depth in gameplay?
On the opponents end. Not everything needs a spell.
This is a neat idea.
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On October 05 2012 11:59 Belha wrote:
So...
Where is the micro?
Where is the added depth in gameplay?
Around the same place where siege tanks are at. Set up and focus fire. Not everything is about kiting and studder-stepping.
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On October 05 2012 11:59 Belha wrote:
So...
Where is the micro?
Where is the added depth in gameplay?
The fact that Widow mines might actually stick around past the early game should make for more varied play.
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Making one mine explode multiple times is a really stupid way to go about accomplishing the exact same thing as having multiple mines. The issue with having multiple mines is, if they cost supply, your actual army becomes small.
Because Blizzard will not admit that mines that cost supply is retarded, they are seriously considering having mines that rebuild themselves?
Surely there are some pros out there who have the courage to tell Blizzard that their ideas are really awful, gimmicky ways to fail at accomplishing things that could be done much more simply and directly, in obvious ways already laid out in the some other successful strategy game loosely connected to Starcraft 2? For example, having a 2 supply unit that can create multiple mines that do not themselves cost supply?
I get it Blizzard, you want terrans to spend supply on units that do not go in a deathball. So give terran (and zerg and protoss) other types of units that are useful, and which do not go well in a deathball. For example, reapers don't go in a deathball. Suppose you made the Widow Mine a minelayer that creates spider mines, but has no attack of its own. That would work also.
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Or better yet, have widow mines be able to be built from floating factory as well as normal means.
This turns the factory into a mine layer unit.
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United States7483 Posts
Self regenerating land mines? Sounds like terran effectively just got the lurker >_>
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lol not going to lie that idea just sounds stupid, let alone sounds like mutas will be useless vs terran if this goes through assuming they can still hit air.
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On October 05 2012 09:26 Crawdad wrote:
Most players cannot see what the devs post in the fabled "hidden pro forum", but one very interesting post has been revealed on Reddit, and it concerns a possible change to the Widow mine.
I've been asking for a screenshot of this forum or some more copy and pastes but sadly - not much luck with this
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I think the idea has great potential. I hope they add it in the next patch so we can try it out and see if it can work.
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Nanobots.. Widow Mines...
NanoMines
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I would love to see it in action.
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This whole thread is making people jump to conclusions... idc until they release something thats actually new after warhound boot heh
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I'm excited! I hope it's as cool as I'm imagining. Great way to go with these.
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They would have to increase the mineral cost and keep supply at 2 for this to fly. Considering mines can freely kill mobile detection like Observers or Overseers, I think it needs to be accounted for how difficult it would be more Protoss/Zerg to deal with it. There is also the concept of a player putting several in the base to prevent harassment, which is smart and I like it, but at the same time it does regress a bit on the new harassment units being able to harass the mineral line. I think the rebuild should cost time and minerals both to suffice. Perhaps the widow mine could have to reburrow as well?
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If banelings can rebuild themselves too then ok.
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I'm afeared as Zerg. o_0
We'll see how it turns out.
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i kind of enjoyed the game when it was at least somewhat convincing. now this is just getting ridiculous.
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So when are these clowns going to get fired? Terran = futuristic, maybe, but HUMAN technology. What's up with a mine that rebuilds itself? the particles are magnetic and they are attracted back into the core?
STOP talking about balance, and talk about race design? This is beta, don't even mention balance, just raise your voice to say that these ideas are simply retarded.
Starcraft 2's solutions are in the past, not in the future.... new ideas are good, but no need to re-invent the wheel.
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Instead of tuning down the super-extreme weird stuff they are introducing even weirder stuff. Thats not a good way to make a game easy to balance and fun.
It might be fun to watch some spaniards run through a small alley in front of a bunch of wild and angry bulls, but the only way to get rid of the chaos is to jump up a wall and let the bulls run off somewhere else. Sadly Blizzard devs keep on running down the tunnel, because they think they will be called cowards if they just get out of their own stupid design.
A self-repairing mine which deals good enough damage would make the game pretty terrible for Zerg, since their detectors arent cloaked and thus can be shot down quite easily and since they are going to be forced to build them it is an unnecessary resource sink. Just because they dont want to give up on the stupid idea of the Swarm Host which provides free units, we have to read this even more stupid idea. I guess the mine still attacks flyers as well, so Overlord scouts will be shot down "free of charge"? I am no Zerg player at heart, but this is seriously stupid business.
On October 05 2012 11:59 Belha wrote:
So...
Where is the micro?
Where is the added depth in gameplay?
TvZ
All you need to build is Vikings and Widow Mines now, since they cant be destroyed if they arent detected, right? Just kill the Overseers with your Vikings and slowly encroach on your enemy with the Widow Mines. They rebuild themselves and thus you can pretty much siege the Zerg without much effort.
If they make the rebuilding terribly slow you kick yourself in the butt by "reserving supply" to something that isnt there and thus it would become a useless "unit".
Terrible terrible idea ...
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Why does the Widow Mine need to explode, then 'rebuild itself?
- Widow Launcher costs 2 supply
- Walk it where desired, burrow it
- Widow builds 'Widow Mines' like Reaver shots - costs minerals
- When enemy unit is in range: Launcher pops out of the ground, fires mine (as presently). Cooldown till next available Mine
- Opponent needs detection to kill the Launcher
Done.
This accomplishes what they are looking for, and fits the Terran race.
Without bending over backwards to explain a mine that "rebuilds itself" (??)
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another free unit? I dont like it.
Sure it would solve the poblem with the Mine but this aint the way it should work. It's the same problem with the Broodlord and Swarm Host: You get free Units and you are instantly more than efficient. When you reach critical mass your opponent has to hope to be very lucky (eg vortex) to win the game since he can only make very bad trades.
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On October 05 2012 14:57 Von wrote:
Why does the Widow Mine need to explode, then 'rebuild itself?
- Widow Launcher costs 2 supply
- Walk it where desired, burrow it
- Widow builds 'Widow Mines' like Reaver shots - costs minerals
- When enemy unit is in range: Launcher pops out of the ground, fires mine (as presently). Cooldown till next available Mine
- Opponent needs detection to kill the Launcher
Done.
This accomplishes what they are looking for, and fits the Terran race.
Without bending over backwards to explain a mine that "rebuilds itself" (??)
Yes, I like this idea, have the mine rebuild time as long as the current one and it won't be a problem, in fact, it might even encourage redeployment.
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On October 05 2012 14:57 Von wrote:
Why does the Widow Mine need to explode, then 'rebuild itself?
- Widow Launcher costs 2 supply
- Walk it where desired, burrow it
- Widow builds 'Widow Mines' like Reaver shots - costs minerals
- When enemy unit is in range: Launcher pops out of the ground, fires mine (as presently). Cooldown till next available Mine
- Opponent needs detection to kill the Launcher
Done.
This accomplishes what they are looking for, and fits the Terran race.
Without bending over backwards to explain a mine that "rebuilds itself" (??)
I assumed that it would work something this way - somewhat of a cross between the Lurker and the Reaver.
It might be even better if it carries 2 or 3 charges with maybe 3 seconds of cooldown between each shot. Once all charges are used up the launcher has to rebuild the charges which takes longer.
So if the enemy has no detection and they walk near, they take one charge, then if they stay around or advance they take another. If the opponent has good micro and retreats then only one charge is taken. This encourages more micro, and mind games like burrowing somewhere to let off one charge, then repositioning when the opponent retreats.
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not a bad idea tbh. I would not go the "repair" route however. It should hold charges that can be stored & ejected (vertically shot up) and detonates. There should be a slight delay and should allow for faster units to minimize the damage. The range of activation should be significantly smaller than the area of explosion so that slower units don't activate the mines at the tip of its area.
Mine coud be revealed during ejection & building
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On October 05 2012 14:29 Patate wrote:
So when are these clowns going to get fired? Terran = futuristic, maybe, but HUMAN technology. What's up with a mine that rebuilds itself? the particles are magnetic and they are attracted back into the core?
STOP talking about balance, and talk about race design? This is beta, don't even mention balance, just raise your voice to say that these ideas are simply retarded.
Starcraft 2's solutions are in the past, not in the future.... new ideas are good, but no need to re-invent the wheel.
how do you explain hyperspace, psionics, transformers, visual cloaking, and all the other questionable year 3000 technology?
reconstructing mines can easily be explained by nanotechnology which is actually within our century.
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On October 05 2012 15:00 Tppz! wrote:another free unit? I dont like it. Sure it would solve the poblem with the Mine but this aint the way it should work. It's the same problem with the Broodlord and Swarm Host: You get free Units and you are instantly more than efficient. When you reach critical mass your opponent has to hope to be very lucky (eg vortex) to win the game since he can only make very bad trades.
I don't see how it's a free unit, it's just infinitely more cost-effective.
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So, terrans may have their lurker ? Great
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Hmmm, all these comparisons to the Reaver makes me wonder...Just give Terran the Reaver :DDD
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On October 05 2012 11:40 SarcasmMonster wrote:I've already made that connection buddy.
a reaver that can make mines, and you can control them probably at cost of one supply? sound good to me
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a) we are not even supposed to know
b) it sounds like a nice idea
c) where the fuck is the problem with logic? i mean the marauder has an endless supply of grenades, and if the widomine only launches a smaller part of it, and then begins to rebuilt it? god no THAT IS SO UNREAL!
balance update #5 should be near, contain your hategasms please <.<
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Maybe they are thinking of something like the mines in Dawn of War. Basically a minefield that blows up about 4-5 times and then "expires" and blows itself up.
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Wasn't this idea suggested in this subforum a while ago? Like a burrowed minelayer of sorts? Really liked the idea back then, can't wait to see what they do with it.
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So Terran will have a reviving, jumping, quadra damage, hit air and ground baneling then?
That sounds... Let's see how it plays out.. 
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ok ok ok ok ok ok here's one... what if................., instead of the launcher moving itself, it has to attach itself to a reaper, like a mothership core to a nexus for purify. And THEN, the reaper has to plant it somewhere, like a vulture would plant a spider mine in BW. So the reaper has to come and get each launcher from the factory, and move it to where it needs to go, and then re-move each launcher. Boom, more micro, purpose for the reaper. Alright make it happen.
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On October 05 2012 16:42 Callynn wrote:So Terran will have a reviving, jumping, quadra damage, hit air and ground baneling then? That sounds... Let's see how it plays out..
You could compare them if baneling could only attack while burrowed.
Oh and if baneling didn't deal 100% splash.
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Although it's cool they try out things in beta like this I feel they just sacked the warhound without any drastical changes to it and now the widow mine will be a unit.
The warhound absolutely sucked, no doubt. But they could have done so much more with the unit and its synergy with other units before scrapping it entirely. They could have changed its role, changed roles of other units to try fitting it in.
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On October 05 2012 17:04 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
ok ok ok ok ok ok here's one... what if................., instead of the launcher moving itself, it has to attach itself to a reaper, like a mothership core to a nexus for purify. And THEN, the reaper has to plant it somewhere, like a vulture would plant a spider mine in BW. So the reaper has to come and get each launcher from the factory, and move it to where it needs to go, and then re-move each launcher. Boom, more micro, purpose for the reaper. Alright make it happen.
too complex
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Why did they scrap the shredder again?
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On October 05 2012 17:45 Psychobabas wrote:
Why did they scrap the shredder again?
The Shredder was scrapped because it was being used to kill workers, and it overlapped with the Siege tank. Even though the Widow mine is used to kill workers quite often, and it will begin to overlap with the Siege tank if it's able to attack multiple times, LOL.
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On October 05 2012 17:24 papaz wrote:
Although it's cool they try out things in beta like this I feel they just sacked the warhound without any drastical changes to it and now the widow mine will be a unit.
The warhound absolutely sucked, no doubt. But they could have done so much more with the unit and its synergy with other units before scrapping it entirely. They could have changed its role, changed roles of other units to try fitting it in.
They kinda HAVE TO make the Widow Mine work now ... and thats terrible. Any "free unit spawner" is terrible, because it fully clashes with the "you have to get an economy and rebuild your army after a battle using your resources" part of any RTS.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Sounds like a mine which builds reaver like scarabs. Good idea.
Let's see how this works! When's the next patch? :o!
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On October 05 2012 18:00 Rabiator wrote:n.
They kinda HAVE TO make the Widow Mine work now ... and thats terrible. Any "free unit spawner" is terrible, because it fully clashes with the "you have to get an economy and rebuild your army after a battle using your resources" part of any RTS.
How exactly is it a free unit spawner? You pay for the unit, and it attacks multiple times. When it is in a position to attack, it is also in danger of being killed. Just like most other units in the game.
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I've actually been for this idea for a little while since the beta was announced. Rather than have a widow mine, create a "Widow" mech unit which can drop mines. You can have mines that have different effects based on how much you spend to build them at the unit itself, like a carrier or reaver.
I would also advocate that none of these mines actually do direct damage. Like other people have posted, that overlaps much to much with what mech is.
I would see it as a debuffer and crowd control unit dropping basically traps that blind, slow, or de-energize.
I think that would be a lot more interesting and would promote the whole, slow push-consume the map, type play.
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Makes me remember the SF novel Second Variety of Phillip K. Dick.
I Like that, If Blizzard takes inspiration from SF Standards, HoTS can't be a funless game. Self-extending Minefiels is a good idea and really Terran-like.
The most fun would be that mines attack everything that comes close, including Terran units, :D
Keep that way, rework the Broodlord so it fits better in the Zerg "Horror-film-like" and I'll be very excited to play HoTS.
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sounds absolutely terrible oO and ridiculous as well. 'A mine that rebuilds itself' LOL.
seems like blizzard isn't running out of terrible ideas any time soon? -.-
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Why not just put back the reaver, since launcher is like an immobile reaver with very slow attack rate. Just feel blizz is changing for the sake of changing. Haha
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On October 05 2012 18:47 Zaurus wrote:
Why not just put back the reaver, since launcher is like an immobile reaver with very slow attack rate. Just feel blizz is changing for the sake of changing. Haha
Not really, a lot of people have been asking for something like this. Whether Blizzard executed it well, we shall have to see. It may be included in tomorrow's patch (assuming there is a patch tomorrow).
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I wonder if there's a mineral/gas cost each time it rebuilds itself.. otherwise, it's not really "rebuilding" is it? It's just a unit with a long cooldown between attacks
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On October 05 2012 19:12 Quotidian wrote:
I wonder if there's a mineral/gas cost each time it rebuilds itself.. otherwise, it's not really "rebuilding" is it? It's just a unit with a long cooldown between attacks
I guess it probably is something like that. People are just jumping to conclusion when they don't know how it will exactly work. I guess it will be something like that idea about unit that plant mines around itself(or in cone), but somehow tweaked. It really won't be a Mine that explodes and then rebuilds itself, lol.
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unit costs and damage have been balanced around the current design, so don't expect this change to go through unaccompanied by changes to the unit dynamic/cost/damage as it would obviously be imbalanced.
It's an interesting idea, i think the only way to change the mechanic to work like this without said cost/damage changes would be to place a hard cap on a players number of allowed active widow mines, i dont want to speculate on what that number might be - i would think no more than like 8 though with their current design.
Alternatively they could perhaps be placed in a location on the map, and after exploded and rebuilding regain only the capacity to explode but not relocate, such that they can be reused as many times as it takes for the other player to kill them but only be placed and once 'armed' are there to stay and explode rebuilding at the location of the unit they attached to at point of exploding.
As long as its balanced and the rebuilding process isnt automated (the player has to target it and hit the hotkey to have the action complete) i think im okay with it, new mechanics help move the game forwards and bring new dimensions to play so its usually a good thing
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On October 05 2012 09:58 unteqair wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 09:40 Zaurus wrote:
Sounds nice, will muta harass still work? I am not worried about ground dmg, but seems pretty OP for air. That does seem like a problem. It may also make turrets less necessary, though, then again, you may not want supply sitting by the mineral line. I think we'll have to wait and see how it works.
Lets be honest, mutas are ALREADY getting less and less popular on higher levels, mainly due to increase in popularity in the double upgrade + infestor. Yea, it gives you more mapcontrol and defense against drop, but I fear that if other tech paths become too strong compared to the muta path, even more pros will simply drop the muta alltogether in zvt. I mean, now you can spend that gas on upgrades and infestors, but what if you ALSO can spend the gas on vipers or swarm hosts, and since turrets already are pretty good, with the addition of the mines, muta for harassment would only work if you catch your opponent really off-guard, which rarely happens on the highest level.
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On October 05 2012 20:00 []Phase[] wrote:
Lets be honest, mutas are ALREADY getting less and less popular on higher levels, mainly due to increase in popularity in the double upgrade + infestor. Yea, it gives you more mapcontrol and defense against drop, but I fear that if other tech paths become too strong compared to the muta path, even more pros will simply drop the muta alltogether in zvt. I mean, now you can spend that gas on upgrades and infestors, but what if you ALSO can spend the gas on vipers or swarm hosts, and since turrets already are pretty good, with the addition of the mines, muta for harassment would only work if you catch your opponent really off-guard, which rarely happens on the highest level.
Infestors are the big problem. They are ridiculously effective in too many roles. They already killed the Hydra.
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On October 05 2012 20:05 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 20:00 []Phase[] wrote:
Lets be honest, mutas are ALREADY getting less and less popular on higher levels, mainly due to increase in popularity in the double upgrade + infestor. Yea, it gives you more mapcontrol and defense against drop, but I fear that if other tech paths become too strong compared to the muta path, even more pros will simply drop the muta alltogether in zvt. I mean, now you can spend that gas on upgrades and infestors, but what if you ALSO can spend the gas on vipers or swarm hosts, and since turrets already are pretty good, with the addition of the mines, muta for harassment would only work if you catch your opponent really off-guard, which rarely happens on the highest level. Infestors are the big problem. They are ridiculously effective in too many roles. They already killed the Hydra.
they hydra just outright sucks and loses to over 80% of all units supplywise. thats what killed the hydra :-P
but yeah the infestor is obv part of the problem since its too strong and hydra too weak.
making the widow mine rebuildable and keeping it 2 supply might be a solution. now make it not hit air and it might work out nicely. although a 0,5 supply mine that only hits ground and has less damage would be better designwise since you would actually be able to get a mine field.
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...just bring the vulture back
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Wait... So it's a burrowed unit that will slowley produce an additional unit that rushes enemy units and explodes...It's a baneling swarm host.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 05 2012 21:06 IcemanAsi wrote:
Wait... So it's a burrowed unit that will slowley produce an additional unit that rushes enemy units and explodes...It's a baneling swarm host.
... no?
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On October 05 2012 21:14 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:06 IcemanAsi wrote:
Wait... So it's a burrowed unit that will slowley produce an additional unit that rushes enemy units and explodes...It's a baneling swarm host.
... no?
ROFL, that was funny, don't know how he even got that idea. :D
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Self re-building minefield, sounds good! As long as it requires player actions, similar to zerg creep tumor spread or reaver scarab building.
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Sounds weird, plus I don't understand how mines suddenly became units in HotS, and how buildings started to fly at 1.8 speed and harass while still having 0 supply requirement, how a mech unit is considered biological and can be healed. This is getting ridiculous, a mine that rebuilds itself when blowing up? This is the biggest bullshit I ever heard.
That's not creative, it's stupid. They're trying to force balance on unit with stupid ideas, it's all so messy and not clear. Like reaper was once a strong unit, they nerfed it into oblivion. Now they try to make it balanced by adding weird passive abilities and complex mechanics instead of keeping it simple. Same with the oracle spell, it has like a long explanation on how the phase shield works with exclusions and stuff.
I want the units to be simple, most of the units in WoL were simple, most of the units in BW were simple. They didn't have a ton of small abilities (like the reaper), and weird stats (like biological hellion), or ridiculous mechanics (like widow mine self rebuild). They have simple units, but they could be controlled better. Like the vulture from bw or the stalker in wol. They both have quite fast speed, great micro abilities, and one very simple spell which can be used in many creative ways.
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On October 05 2012 22:06 Adonminus wrote:
Sounds weird, plus I don't understand how mines suddenly became units in HotS, and how buildings started to fly at 1.8 speed and harass while still having 0 supply requirement, how a mech unit is considered biological and can be healed. This is getting ridiculous, a mine that rebuilds itself when blowing up? This is the biggest bullshit I ever heard.
That's not creative, it's stupid. They're trying to force balance on unit with stupid ideas, it's all so messy and not clear. Like reaper was once a strong unit, they nerfed it into oblivion. Now they try to make it balanced by adding weird passive abilities and complex mechanics instead of keeping it simple. Same with the oracle spell, it has like a long explanation on how the phase shield works with exclusions and stuff.
I want the units to be simple, most of the units in WoL were simple, most of the units in BW were simple. They didn't have a ton of small abilities (like the reaper), and weird stats (like biological hellion), or ridiculous mechanics (like widow mine self rebuild). They have simple units, but they could be controlled better. Like the vulture from bw or the stalker in wol. They both have quite fast speed, great micro abilities, and one very simple spell which can be used in many creative ways.
Dude... marauders build rockets in their arms already. It has been official lore for the past three years.
A robot that builds missiles while underground is not that far fetched.
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They need to replace a widow mine with a unit like the reaver that lays expensive mines (widow mine) and has like a small weak machine gun attack (or no attack).
Or keep the mine as it is. Let it do its damage and keep the non exposive leg part exposed until the player rebuilds the exposive part. This gives the other play a chance to kill the widow mine from rebuilding
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United States4883 Posts
So...I'm imagining a really slow photon cannon with splash. You could just put one of these in your mineral line and potentially, if it wasn't sniped, it would be able to handle anything for an unlimited amount of time.
Kind of nice. I think that's the idea. Keep it up, Blizzard.
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On October 05 2012 22:06 Adonminus wrote:
Sounds weird, plus I don't understand how mines suddenly became units in HotS, and how buildings started to fly at 1.8 speed and harass while still having 0 supply requirement, how a mech unit is considered biological and can be healed. This is getting ridiculous, a mine that rebuilds itself when blowing up? This is the biggest bullshit I ever heard.
That's not creative, it's stupid. They're trying to force balance on unit with stupid ideas, it's all so messy and not clear. Like reaper was once a strong unit, they nerfed it into oblivion. Now they try to make it balanced by adding weird passive abilities and complex mechanics instead of keeping it simple. Same with the oracle spell, it has like a long explanation on how the phase shield works with exclusions and stuff.
I want the units to be simple, most of the units in WoL were simple, most of the units in BW were simple. They didn't have a ton of small abilities (like the reaper), and weird stats (like biological hellion), or ridiculous mechanics (like widow mine self rebuild). They have simple units, but they could be controlled better. Like the vulture from bw or the stalker in wol. They both have quite fast speed, great micro abilities, and one very simple spell which can be used in many creative ways.
i agree with this. i mean i can understand if the thor had something like this but then everyone will be crying how op it is and all that crap. I don't know wtf these guys are smoking but these are really bad ideas and HOTS is starting to look like a fail game that no one will ever want to buy
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Inb4 spidermine too stronk.
No but really, sounds kind of OP, a unit with an infinite potential for almost nothing.
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wouldnt that be really strong in stopping muta harass? so you put up a bunch and mutas are shut down? They cant have detection and kill them with mutas cuz there range is too small. guess its time to snipe widow mines with broodlords :/
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On October 05 2012 22:53 Blackknight232 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 22:06 Adonminus wrote:
Sounds weird, plus I don't understand how mines suddenly became units in HotS, and how buildings started to fly at 1.8 speed and harass while still having 0 supply requirement, how a mech unit is considered biological and can be healed. This is getting ridiculous, a mine that rebuilds itself when blowing up? This is the biggest bullshit I ever heard.
That's not creative, it's stupid. They're trying to force balance on unit with stupid ideas, it's all so messy and not clear. Like reaper was once a strong unit, they nerfed it into oblivion. Now they try to make it balanced by adding weird passive abilities and complex mechanics instead of keeping it simple. Same with the oracle spell, it has like a long explanation on how the phase shield works with exclusions and stuff.
I want the units to be simple, most of the units in WoL were simple, most of the units in BW were simple. They didn't have a ton of small abilities (like the reaper), and weird stats (like biological hellion), or ridiculous mechanics (like widow mine self rebuild). They have simple units, but they could be controlled better. Like the vulture from bw or the stalker in wol. They both have quite fast speed, great micro abilities, and one very simple spell which can be used in many creative ways.
i agree with this. i mean i can understand if the thor had something like this but then everyone will be crying how op it is and all that crap. I don't know wtf these guys are smoking but these are really bad ideas and HOTS is starting to look like a fail game that no one will ever want to buy
If by "no one will ever want to buy" you mean you, then I agree. All I see from you from the start of the beta, are the posts how everything is terrible and how Blizzard don't have a clue what they are doing, without discussing everything.
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i really like that. seems like a good way to make mines more of a real "unit", without buffing them in a way that will make them too strong in army vs. army matchups. what they will do is control space better, because the opponent has to clear them or they'll keep taking damage--but if a major engagement goes down, they'll still effectively be a one shot deal during the engagement. It seems like a good way to fulfill Blizzard's goal of a unit that is most effective in space control, and least effective when simply added to a deathball.
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Ok so terran gets 2 new units instead of 1.5 , I can stop qqing now
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When will people stop to jump to conclusion while they have absolutely no information?
Seriously, at least, please try to start your comments with "If...." before throwing the idea to the trash bin...
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They should just use that mine layer idea. Make it like a reaver so each mine costs a little bit of money.
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Perhaps they can make it work somewhat like the swarm host, in that while burrowed it can launch mines at enemies in range, but takes 20 seconds or so to reload a new mine OR the player can invest minerals to rebuild the mine component like the reaver. we shall see
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On October 06 2012 00:03 Phoobie wrote:
Perhaps they can make it work somewhat like the swarm host, in that while burrowed it can launch mines at enemies in range, but takes 20 seconds or so to reload a new mine OR the player can invest minerals to rebuild the mine component like the reaver. we shall see
A slow siege tank or a reaver?
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I will not jump to conclusions and see what they got to offer I like it when they get a bit creative.
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On October 06 2012 00:03 Phoobie wrote:
Perhaps they can make it work somewhat like the swarm host, in that while burrowed it can launch mines at enemies in range, but takes 20 seconds or so to reload a new mine OR the player can invest minerals to rebuild the mine component like the reaver. we shall see
"like the Swarm Host" is a terrible terrible idea, because the races are supposed to be DIFFERENT in their unit design.
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If this is the case then maybe mines shouldn't hit air, or maybe mines should never hit air.
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On October 05 2012 18:05 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 18:00 Rabiator wrote:n.
They kinda HAVE TO make the Widow Mine work now ... and thats terrible. Any "free unit spawner" is terrible, because it fully clashes with the "you have to get an economy and rebuild your army after a battle using your resources" part of any RTS. How exactly is it a free unit spawner? You pay for the unit, and it attacks multiple times. When it is in a position to attack, it is also in danger of being killed. Just like most other units in the game.
It is a "free unit spawner" because you pay once for the mine and can possibly keep it indefinetely. The mine is a "throw away unit" and has to pay for it the first time it gets used or else it will be to expensive (because it still costs supply which isnt plentiful in the game). Just imagine you are rushing to Widow Mine and your opponent is swarming you with Zerglings. He attacks you and your mines get rid of all of them (or even better: Banelings). Then the Zerg has to remake his units while your mines reconstruct themselves. Thats pretty much a "free unit generator" because you get the protection of your mines again and the opponent has to remake his units.
In any case the only mine that was fun was the Spider Mine due to its 2 seconds of "where will it strike?", which is exciting compared with the "let me jump on this flying unit" BS.
On October 06 2012 00:17 Jinmaster wrote:
If this is the case then maybe mines shouldn't hit air, or maybe mines should never hit air.
Blizzard logic ... but they have to be good or else it becomes hard to justify requiring supply for them and being useable against air as well was something they came up with. Mines shouldnt cost supply (they arent active units unlike the Baneling) and this whole redeployment junk and air attacking is bad.
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I personally like the idea, and right now is the best time to try it. We are in beta where all the interesting ideas should come to pass, because you have a willing audience that will allow Blizzard to make the best game possible. And really, isn’t that the goal?
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Most of the posts here show how a lot of people have kainotophobia. This is a fun addition and they'll balance it out with damage and (re-)build time. Just wait for it to be placed in beta before you say something is OP.
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How about something like this:
It is kind of a mixture between the minelayer idea someone brought up very recently and the original Widow-Mine.
Unburrowed the mine is basically the same as it is now, if you burrow it however you have two choices:
Option 1: Place three (or more?) small mines with really weak damage and splash somewhere in a certain range (maybe 4-5) around the main unit or mineholder. The damage of three little mines combined should be significantly less than the damage of option 2. They can be exploded separately and rebought after a cooldown for some minerals. If the main unit unburrows, all small mines explode and have to be rebought after the cooldown. Also you could think about the small mines needing some time before exploding (I'm thinking something like 2-3 seconds) to allow for more micropotential on the opponent's side.
Option 2: Keep the small mines on the main unit and suicide the whole thing including the mineholder (basically like it is now) for one big burst-damage with relatively big splash.
Costs would have to be adjusted of course but I think this would create a lot of interesting options:
- Have good space control with a lot of small mines without having to draw too much supply away from your main army
- Not make it a pure suicide unit to increase viability
- still have it be useful as a high-damage-on-small-area-unit against units like broodlords/mutas/roaches and in all-in-defense situations
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On October 05 2012 17:31 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 17:04 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
ok ok ok ok ok ok here's one... what if................., instead of the launcher moving itself, it has to attach itself to a reaper, like a mothership core to a nexus for purify. And THEN, the reaper has to plant it somewhere, like a vulture would plant a spider mine in BW. So the reaper has to come and get each launcher from the factory, and move it to where it needs to go, and then re-move each launcher. Boom, more micro, purpose for the reaper. Alright make it happen. too complex
too serious :p
On October 05 2012 20:12 Steins;Gate wrote:
...just bring the vulture back
^ this. Or some facsimile.
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In my opinion I think that units that rebuild them self or spawn free units are bad for sc2 since its an economy based RTS.
I think the widow mine is fine as it is. MAYBE lower it to 1 supply, although its no biggie if it stays 2. Make it so that workers do not trigger the mine.
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On October 05 2012 18:44 wcr.4fun wrote:
sounds absolutely terrible oO and ridiculous as well. 'A mine that rebuilds itself' LOL.
seems like blizzard isn't running out of terrible ideas any time soon? -.-
You've been complaining since the dawn of time so no, they will never run out of ideas you in particular hate.
I happen to really like this. Self replicating explosives are future-tech. They don't rebuild themselves. The widow mine provides a launcher and just the explosive launches. Makes it more like a very high cost seeker missile with a cooldown.
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On October 06 2012 00:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 00:03 Phoobie wrote:
Perhaps they can make it work somewhat like the swarm host, in that while burrowed it can launch mines at enemies in range, but takes 20 seconds or so to reload a new mine OR the player can invest minerals to rebuild the mine component like the reaver. we shall see "like the Swarm Host" is a terrible terrible idea, because the races are supposed to be DIFFERENT in their unit design.
It's nothing like the swarm host. It's more like a reaver than a swarm host. The Widow Mine is just a short range, deployable, invisible reaver that is best deployed in fields. The swarm host is more like a mobile unit factory and is completely defenseless by itself. A widow mine is nowhere near defenseless but has one shot.
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On October 06 2012 00:53 SCRK wrote:
Most of the posts here show how a lot of people have kainotophobia. This is a fun addition and they'll balance it out with damage and (re-)build time. Just wait for it to be placed in beta before you say something is OP.
Thats some big words you're usin' there whippersnapper. We're just simple folks round here.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
That seems like a really cool idea, although I liked the mine field one.
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If they just made a unit that layed the mines, it'd make a hell of a lot more sense.
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On October 06 2012 03:05 osiris17 wrote:
If they just made a unit that layed the mines, it'd make a hell of a lot more sense.
That is the new role that Dustin is suggesting. It burrows and replaces itself.
Edit : I do know what you mean, I did suggest that the factory could produce them on the fly.
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On October 05 2012 21:34 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:14 Qikz wrote:On October 05 2012 21:06 IcemanAsi wrote:
Wait... So it's a burrowed unit that will slowley produce an additional unit that rushes enemy units and explodes...It's a baneling swarm host.
... no? ROFL, that was funny, don't know how he even got that idea. :D
"This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed.
It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now."
Never, Ever, Doubt me again.
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EPT
