EPTHotS Balance Update #4 [9/28/12] - Page 11
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brokenLoL
United Kingdom419 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:10 brokenLoL wrote: Hmm I hope the wol maps will he daybreak, cloud kingdom and entombed valley. I'm hoping daybreak, whirlwind and any map but cloud/antiga  | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:08 Axeltl wrote: tbh, i feel like they made the mothership core worse. Now there's literally no reason for me to leave it in my base, nor do i see the point of lugging a 1.875 movement speed mothership core with me just so that i can use massrecall if need be. This poses many questions but by far i want to know what blizzard are thinking by doing this? Also will the acctual mothership have recall? Mothership still has it's recall ability from WOL. | ||
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wUndertUnge
United States1126 Posts
Now on the offensive, you can't just send out the MC by itself. Also, having it with the army gives it a bit of a boost in DPS. AND most of all, if you time it out corrctly, it's easy to do a counter to the toss army that doesn't turn into a base-race necessarily, so long as toss can recall in time. IMO, this is one of the more daring, important, and awesome changes to gameplay. Can't wait. EDIT: Also, just want to add that I played a 1v1 ladder skirmish where we didn't attack for awhile so we could get some of the new units. My opponent sent the MC by itself to harass, and 2 queens were capable of fending off the attack (if memory serves...) EDIT: Also should say that obviously the fine tuning and tweaking for balance needs to happen BUT as far as a design choice, I feel like this was such a great move on the design team's part. Really changes early toss gameplay IMO. | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:09 ZeromuS wrote: Ok, so food for thought: You can get a mothership core to 1v1 a queen, the core wins. And by the time it gets to a zerg base it should have enough energy for a recall. Awesome pressure forcing 2 queens at main hatch? Or stupid oversight by blizzard? Just guessing, that by the time a mcore makes it onto the field, a second queen would probably be finished or in production depending on the timings of the zerg's pools and expos. On creep, queens are more than fast enough. This would only be a problem on close spawns on 4player maps. Think, antiga, base to base. It should pose a small threat, but the energy required for the recall likely wouldn't be generated in time. With the 1.875 speed, it gets there pretty fast now. I'm most concerned for how early roach/ling pressure will fair without anti-air. Maybe they can make the viper pull units to the ground or something, lol. As for early mcore harrass, I could really only see a problem if the zergs third on antiga was being hit by it and the creep spread wasn't far enough yet for queens to crawl there. That would mainly be a ladder concern though, since tournaments typically do cross spawns on maps like those. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:10 734pot wrote: No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will. 4 gates don't actually happen that often anymore, but the threat of the build still defines the MU. 4 gate is so strong that it wipes out a wide chunk of the strategic options for PvP, and what's left is essentially a rock-paper-scissors game that's 75% determined by build order luck. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:10 734pot wrote: No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will. In the last patch, it seemed very sensible to expo very quickly. If people are still under the same notion, then people will probably 4 gate and kill you, if you're stuck doing 8 damage with your msc until you have your natural up. As a toss player, I'm just bewildered at the need for the change, as mass recall in base wasn't a threat if you macro'd, unless you spawned at like closest positions on the smallest map... I guess. And if they attack with purifier, well, I have a core, too. Big deal. 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation. Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate. EDIT: Also, the duration was so short that it sucked at defense, anyway. | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:28 Crawdad wrote: Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate. Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core. Edit: Purify dps is 16 btw | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
On September 29 2012 08:05 Sabu113 wrote: They gutted the recall ;(. Now we just have the mothership moved from the stargate to the nex. Less interesting control of space too. Might have been necessary but definitely less interesting. Mothership core moves at the same speed as a high templar. I don't think we'll be seeing roving stalker groups any time in the earlygame. It'd be nice if they let protoss have some edges for once. Stalkers already rove around in groups early game as long as there aren't a tonne of speedlings on the map and later on as long as they have blink. The more important thing is being able to move around with sentries, which are still fairly slow so I think it is reasonable. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:38 JSRazor wrote: Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core. I agree, which is why Blizzard changed it. Short duration and high damage is just begging to be abused for offense instead of defense. Now, it can be argued that the new Purify doesn't do enough damage to attackers, or that it can't be used early enough (due to the reverted cost of the MsC and the newer cost of Purify). Maybe the DPS should be buffed somewhat and the energy cost should go back to 75. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:38 JSRazor wrote: Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core. Edit: Purify dps is 16 btw The cost is 100/100 for the mothership core? If it's more costly than a stalker, and you're getting it for defensive purposes, how does it help if you're not going to end up with more dps in any early attacks? As for recall, I just hope the people losing/complaining about its offensive abilities weren't toss players. I agree in that I don't want it to be an offensive weapon, but to have this recall change is disheartening. Always needing to have your army under a "super unit" is so lame. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:09 ZeromuS wrote: Ok, so food for thought: You can get a mothership core to 1v1 a queen, the core wins. And by the time it gets to a zerg base it should have enough energy for a recall. Awesome pressure forcing 2 queens at main hatch? Or stupid oversight by blizzard? Neither. Just a case of theorycrafting being an inaccurate representation of play. Queens are faster than cores. They win when microed even just a little. And Zerg make more than one queen early vs Protoss anyway. | ||
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VegetarianPeaceLove
33 Posts
O man. Every thing aside, there's this reality that seems to elude games for balance purposes. The matter of the fact is that what ever's in that radius would be warped back. Oh man, that would be the best thing ever if they did that | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On September 29 2012 15:08 VegetarianPeaceLove wrote: Oh my god! Please, I beg , that the enemy units in the radius of the recall get brought back! I just got stoned and imagined this! The cinematics and reality of this just seem so right. Imagine, sneak in banes trying to chase down some sentries, everything is frozen, and the observer jumps back to base! Bam, a battle at the recall zone in the home base! O man. Every thing aside, there's this reality that seems to elude games for balance purposes. The matter of the fact is that what ever's in that radius would be warped back. Oh man, that would be the best thing ever if they did that Hahaha. Amazing. | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
heck yea i could not wait to see a msc recall all your drone/scv/probe | ||
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VegetarianPeaceLove
33 Posts
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larse
1611 Posts
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KevoStream
Peru20 Posts
I dont know why its taking so long. Same cost. you buy 2 widow mines for 1 supply. Same damage, and it doesnt atack air. Easy spamm mines, no trouble killing dropships or super mega cost efective mutaballs. Or in other case, it doesnt atack air, freee supply, free cost, add a new unit called vulture for 75minerals and attach 3 mines in there. | ||
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
By the time it gets across the map to my base it already pretty much has a recall and you should only have 2 queens. You can kill the mothership core if it was alone but accompany it was Zealots and/or stalkers and you can either kill the Zerg or force them into a really really bad positon economically while the Protoss can recall back if things get too hot. And then in the meantime the Zerg has a crippled economy and the Protoss can expand behind it because they still have units and they now have the purify cannon to help with the defense. All in all its an idiotic change and it will be changed to something different next week when they realise it. | ||
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