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On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote:
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
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I personally don't like hero units, I feel like that was for the Warcraft franchise, not for SC. Also, I feel like if they aren't going to give any more new units/abilities to terrans besides reaperlol, mines, and bhellion, there won't be that much changes to their meta compared to the other 2 races which is unfortunate..
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On September 29 2012 12:37 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote:
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow. That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
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On September 29 2012 12:39 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:37 Crawdad wrote:On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote:
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow. That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main. What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting.
The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out.
I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability.
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Very glad that it is constantly changing!
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On September 29 2012 12:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:39 Godwrath wrote:On September 29 2012 12:37 Crawdad wrote:On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote:
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow. That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main. What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT? Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting. The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out. I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability.
it was 0.47 speed unit. You just send a few stalkers/marines/queens to kill it before it drops anything at your main natural.
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On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote:
MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Is it realy intended to defend the whole of the protoss base early game ?
No need for that at all,it is fine just defending the mineral line and maybe a small area around it where you place your production, it has still 4 more range then a pf (or 3 if upgrade pf)
Annyway:Find the motership core a verry silly unit, and i think blizzard feels the same.
Seeing that they have no clear plan with the unit and keep changing it drastically.
Go back to the first version of msc, atached to nexus and no recall.
Recall is just to strong early game, trying to solve it by having the unit wich casts recall to go with your army creates other problems.
They try to get to manny different functions (everything protoss was missing) some of wich contradict eachoter in one unit, this will never work imho.
Split the abilitys protoss lacks over different units/nexus and it will be alot less gimmicky and easier and smoother to balance.
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On September 29 2012 12:48 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:43 Plansix wrote:On September 29 2012 12:39 Godwrath wrote:On September 29 2012 12:37 Crawdad wrote:On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote:
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow. That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main. What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT? Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting. The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out. I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability. it was 0.47 speed unit. You just send a few stalkers/marines/queens to kill it before it drops anything at your main natural.
I get what you are saying, but I rarely saw the core and recall being used for anything other than a 1 base all in. Pro stream or otherwise. This change seems better, requires more multitasking than a single click and has some risk to it.
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On September 29 2012 08:06 Tao367 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:57 jcroisdale wrote:
The Mothership core seems so cool now, Like a General of your army to be on the battlefield. So like a hero unit, like the mothership. I am not sure I like this design. I would prefer it to be attached to the nexus like in the early previews.
I didn't like that. Felt really boring. I like some of the stuff we've been seeing where the Protoss floats the MoCore out to their third base, like on that snow map (can't remember the name). It looks so cool floating there protecting your base, and is pretty handy for defense, which I think will be even more so with the Purify changes.
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My experience with the changes so far are positive. The mothership core is still fairly offensive, now being able to move with your army. It really assures in pvp that one will be with an offensive pack of units, however, purify makes defending a natural fairly nice. This is useful against terran drops, zealot drops, and mutas. Its not going to eliminate a player using mutas or doing drops, but it still gives us way more maneuverability than in WOL. The usefulness of mass recall is lessened a bit, as you can't harass and pull back the way you could before, as now you'll risk your mothership core as well, however, it's now fast enough to contribute to harass more often. Haven't had a situation where it spawns and i send it to a zerg main early on, so i'm not sure how well it does against queens. Will comment more soon :D
EDIT: Oh, and just to make this clear, the speed of the MSC was basically quadrupled. .47 x 4 = 1.88, and the speed change is to 1.875. Think of how fast an overlord now moves, and look at the mothership core's speed. This unit doesn't have to worry about terrain, as it is a flying unit. It's decently fast, all things considered. The biggest change this really provides, is that it reduces the macro in pvp again, simply because an early expand is a little harder to hold onto again because your opponent is likely to have a core with them. Luckily, you wont have a purify going off in your own base this time... unless you get proxy nexus'd.... which seems like fun.
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Any news on the warhound?
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Eh. Blizzard clearly have a plan for the mothership core - it just didn't involve the toss being able to jump their entire deathball from the opponents third directly into their main. It doesn't even promote deathball play - it just allows for a fallback position. Anyone with any common sense will target fire the MSC. Purify was also far, far too strong.
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On September 29 2012 12:52 Rassy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote:
MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map) Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
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I'll have to check out the new mothership core abilities... I still don't see the oracle (or tempest) as viable.
On September 29 2012 13:15 Wounded31 wrote:
Any news on the warhound?
Yeah.
It's gone.
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I really don't understand what they are trying to accomplish with 2 supply widow mines...
You want Terran players to make fields of defensive mines that cost 2 supply? Terran already has the weakest late game army we don't need 10-20+ supply caught up in almost useless defensive mines. If I want to set up a defense as Terran I will make missile turrets and planetaries like I always have.
Then again I haven't played the beta yet but I just don't see widow mines becoming a "staple unit" until they are either layed by the hellion or made 1 supply.
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I think these are good changes, here are some points I've made about the new Core and why it improves the dynamics of Recall and Purify.
1. Now that Recall is tied to the Mothership Core, the enemy now knows the specific army that can be recalled, and can even prevent the recall by targeting down the Core. More interestingly, if the Core is among Colossi against Vikings or Corruptors, the opponent will either need to allow a bit of Colossi fire to occur if they want to stop the Core and its recall, or allow the recall if they want to kill the Colossi first.
2. If the Protoss is harassing and attacking, they now have to pre-emptively decide which army they want to recall. They can move their mothership core from one army to the next, but this becomes a risk reward type scenario because if their core gets spotted or isolated while moving between two armies then it can get picked off, removing any possibility for recall.
3. With purify being an unlimited time defensive cannon until you cancel it, in the early game players who want to be aggressive will have to choose between having base defence and recalling their army. No longer can you keep your core always at your base and purify it when some light harass comes by, then also recall when your army gets in trouble. Obviously you can use recall defensively, but that sacrifices your ability to attack, and if it's only a few hellions or zerglings then it is obviously not as useful as having the core there with Purify.
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Darn, so much for my Mothership Core Purify rush vs. Zerg.
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On September 29 2012 13:17 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:52 Rassy wrote:On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote:
MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map) Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus? Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural. Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind. If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
There is also similar consideration in other areas when designing maps. For example ramp mechanics seem to be the way they are right now to adjust PvP and to some extent ZvZ. There are some mechanics that are very map dependent, which is a good thing, as it gives map makers more of an opportunity to adjust both balance and gameplay.
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OK changes overall.
But, as others already mentioned, I think hero units are poisoning the protoss metagame (and accordingly all protoss involved matchups). The other races don't need one, why does the protoss? It's only leading to more deathball play (cause you commit all your units, to that strong unique unit) and so the whole protoss race must be balanced around a single endgame scenario (pvz), which is very much do or die without a real possibility of a plan b.
I really hope they will just remove the mothership core together with the mothership and finally begin to balance protoss without the reliance of a hero unit. There will be much work to do, but I think its worth it! I would appreciate the mothership/ms core in the campaign but I don't think they should have any room in the multiplayer.
Distribute the abilities of these two units to the nexus and the oracle. Nexi could use their energy for purify and recall (like in a former state in the alpha), cloaking and a very small form of vortex (scrap phase shield) could be very nice t3 upgrade abilities for the oracle. That would give protoss players an alternativ besides the deathball in the endgame. The current design doesn't help at all.
If you have the same opinion, I would appreciate if someone repost this or a similar text to the Beta Forums (maybe with better English^^), unfortunatly I cannot do it myself.
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On September 29 2012 13:17 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:52 Rassy wrote:On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote:
MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map) Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus? Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural. Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind. If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
Purify alone is not enough to defend your natural. It is a single photon cannon with range 10. It is enough to force stand offs that would have been a potential stalemate due to rallying units into a full engagement. There's no need to make maps based around it any more than there is a need to make maps based around the defensive use of the range of siege tanks or the colossus.
There's a difference between balancing for economy and balancing for defence. The adjustment made for protoss in most maps is to allow for forge fast expands to defend their natural through the use of buildings to block ling run-bys (the only real early game threat to a toss). This can either occur at the ramp or at the nexus itself. There's little difference in surface area between these two, depending on the size of the ramp as it generally requires 2-3 buildings in order to do this regardless.
This also does not take into account that FFE is only effective vs zerg early aggression. A terran who wants to hit you with a few marauders and a bunch of marines will absolutely annihilate anything less than 3-4 cannons before they have a chance to do any damage at all. Purify is already effective enough on its own, having a 10 range (and meaning, therefore, it can hit colossi). It does its job.
Distribute the abilities of these two units to the nexus and the oracle. Nexi could use their energy for purify and recall (like in a former state in the alpha), cloaking and a very small form of vortex (scrap phase shield) could be very nice t3 upgrade abilities for the oracle. That would give protoss players an alternativ besides the deathball in the endgame. The current design doesn't help at all.
Er, the reason they aren't giving those abilities to a nexus is precisely because the one thing protoss does not need in the game right now is the ability to recall their all ins at will.
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EPT
