Mothership Core Purify has been changed to the following: Purify can now only be cast on your Nexus at max 10 range. Once cast, the mothership core will attach itself to the Nexus, transforming into a weapon with range 10. While attached to the Nexus, the mothership core will be unable to cast abilities and regenerate energy. The damage of Purify has been lowered to 20 and can attack both air and ground units. Purify will last until cancelled. Recall has been changed to the following: Recall is now a simple cast-and-click ability on a player’s Nexus. Once cast, the mothership core and every friendly unit within a 7-range radius to the core will be recalled to the Nexus. A new ranged weapon called Repulsor Cannon has been added to the mothership core while in its mobile state. Repulsor Cannon deals 8 damage to ground units with an attack speed of 0.85. The cost of the mothership core has increased from 50/50 to 100/100. Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875.
Oracle Health has increased from 20/80 to 60/100. Speed has decreased from 3.75 to 3.375. The duration of Entomb has increased from 30 to 45.
Terran
Widow Mine The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec. Auto-cast can now be turned off in both activated and deactivated modes.
Zerg
Swarm Host Locust attack range has increased from 2 to 3. Locust damage has been reduced from 14 to 12.
Bug Fixes
Battle hellions can no longer load into Bunkers. The splash damage from widow mines will no longer hit friendly activated widow mines. The Stargate Command Card now properly includes a Set Rally Point button. Swarm hosts now have proper collision while burrowed.
As you’ve likely noticed, we’re still actively tuning the numbers on many of the new units we’re introducing in Heart of the Swarm. We’re making these changes after frequently referring to the stats from the beta, our play experiences, discussions taking place on the community forums and fan sites, and pro feedback. We think there’s still a ways to go in terms of number tweaks and are working hard to bring you the best experience possible.
The main design changes for this week are surrounding the mothership core. Due to the variety in maps, we found that no matter how slow we made the mothership core’s movement speed, deadly all-in strategies exist on many different maps and/or positions. To ensure that this unit does not limit us as well as the many tournament map makers around the world, we decided to go in a new direction.
The mothership core’s Purify ability is now cast on a Nexus attaching the unit to the Nexus and enabling a weapon that deals 20 damage. The mothership core will remain attached to the Nexus until cancelled; however, energy will not be regenerated and no abilities can be used while attached. Additionally, the Recall ability has been modified to teleport the mothership core and units nearby to a targeted Nexus. Both of these changes were made to discourage the unit from being used in all-ins. Now that its two spells are strictly defensive, we believe we can make a cooler mothership core. It will now move at a reasonably fast speed and feature an anti-ground attack. We hope these changes will make the unit a lot more fun to use.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Next on the design docket:
We’re currently looking at ways to alter the design of the widow mine so that it feels like core terran unit. We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations. These are the main things we’re looking at right now, so we encourage you to share your feedback regarding these two topics.
Thank you so much for playing the beta and giving us your feedback. Please remember that nothing is final; we’re doing our best on each of the three races and hope to continue working with our players in order to make Heart of the Swarm awesome.
I just... can't stop drooling, the MB is actually AWESOME NOW. Well done Blizzard, made a boring unit into something interesting and game changing/breaking. Can't wait to it in action.
I guess they figured they couldn't get a mobile mothership with strong defense to work without it being too strong offensively. If you can't beat them, join them right?
Mixed thoughts on mothership, but everything else looks good. I think I would prefer it if the mothership was permanently attached to nexus though =/ The thought of a nexus/mothershipcore contain is kinda interesting though!
If I understand this correctly, you can only recall now if the MS core is with your army? Wow that sucks.
But it now moves at around 75% the speed of a zealot
Woah, big overhaul to the Mothership Core. It looks like kcdc's thread and those of countless others have really caught the attention of Blizzard. These changes seem to be in the right direction.
I would prefer the Mothership Core to be a strong defensive unit rather than abused as an offensive unit.
I'm interested to see how the Protoss changes will effect gameplay, it's not something I can readily infer after just reading the patch notes. Bug fixes, hellions can't get into a bunker now T_T
I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
They gutted the recall ;(. Now we just have the mothership moved from the stargate to the nex. Less interesting control of space too. Might have been necessary but definitely less interesting.
Mothership core moves at the same speed as a high templar. I don't think we'll be seeing roving stalker groups any time in the earlygame. It'd be nice if they let protoss have some edges for once.
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Actually I think this works out a LOT better for Protoss early game harassment because they can still do early attacks but they will be forced to do attacks that aren't "gimmicky". What I mean is that from what I saw before, Protoss would just send in a couple groups of armies on a suicide mission then just recall out for no damage. Now Protoss can still send in an early army with the potential to do a bunch of damage and just recall out but their push will be a little bit slower (roughly 25%?) and they will need to protect their Mothership core or risk losing everything. It still lets Protoss make strong early pushes but it also forces them to be very smart and tactical about how they do it.
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
Having only just started playing the beta I found myself wondering the usefulness of widow mine with its long activation time, and how to use it properly. Can't wait to see how this change works out, and glad they made it easier to deactivate the autocast.
The purify part of the core looks cool however the recall part i'm not to thrilled about, and the weapon, Thought the core was supposed to be a defensive unit. It seems to be turning into an offensive unit.
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
I have and I think that for harassment it's still very little. With this design the purify ability is much more attractive and consequently recall will see little use.
On September 29 2012 08:12 NKexquisite wrote: Waiting for Warhound replacement unit...
I like the recall changes but i think the range is a little low. 7 puts it a little too close to the action, bump it up to about 12 maybe 15 and i think it could work. Purify change was needed, it would of ruined some map types had it stayed its old way.
so they still have no clue what to do with terran... no new unit, no lategame, no decrease in skill ceiling/floor disparity of the races, but hey, lets tweak the widowmine a bit!
they said they would use the beta for drastic tests because where else if not there? in the light of this statement their changes are pretty humble, almost as if they think they are getting close, which they are not.
edit: also i am pretty pissed how oracle and mothershipcore get new spells and reworked bit by bit every patch, and the warhound gets deleted with no second thought, the oh so cool dance video was just painful to look at.
I don't understand why completly changing the way the mothership core work. It has went from a pseudo building attached to the nexus, now it's a knda average moving army general. ;s
And now the mothership core is another thing you just put in your 1 control group army too...
Good with the small buff to the Widow mind, Swarm host changes seem reasonable.
The Mothership core change could be really cool, or bad. We'll just have to see. I actually prefer the new recall since the protoss player can't just commit without risk and then recall as easily.
I honestly do not understand how the hell Blizz plan their units.
Is like they throw just cool stuff, create a unit, then see what happens (yeah, i know Browder said that this is exactly how they design the units, which is just hilariously dumb).
Mothership core was supposed to be a unique unit with certain defensive/harass roles. Ok
Now they are turning it into a battle support unit. Wtf.
Is like, zero planning at all. Of curse not zero, but meaningless planning for sure.
On September 29 2012 08:17 Naphal wrote: so they still have no clue what to do with terran... no new unit, no lategame, no decrease in skill ceiling/floor disparity of the races, but hey, lets tweak the widowmine a bit!
they said they would use the beta for drastic tests because where else if not there? in the light of this statement their changes are pretty humble, almost as if they think they are getting close, which they are not.
I find it sad that you are this ignorant.
I've been offracing with Terran quite a bit. You seem to not understand the huge difference battle mode hellions make.
Any composition the opponent uses, other then mass air of course, battle hellions either do great damage or are a great meat shield or both.. for Tanks and Thors.
The widow mine is the only thing thats off about mech, hence why they are constantly tweaking it.
Anyway, the Swarm Host changes are interesting, can't wait to experiment.
MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
On September 29 2012 08:16 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Ugh Locust attack range back up, as far as I'm concerned it should be melee, the fucking unit is completely free.
Right now in Wol, Melee upgrades are far more beneficial, in comparison to range. If they were to make locusts also melee. They are even more so overloading the benefits for melee over range.
I honestly think that the balance between these upgrades, is the main reason to why they switched them over to ranged.
As if Protoss all-ins weren't strong enough without an extra fifty billion DPS in the form of mothership core.
Anyway, mech won't be fully viable until mines become an upgrade for hellions imo. 2 supply mines are just way too gimmicky/situational. Mech needs a vulture in the form of hellion with mines.
Also buff tank damage. They just aren't the point-controlling super-scary-when-sieged unit they should be. Sure, the damage pre-nerf was broken as hell on maps like Steppes of War, but with modern maps being so huge tanks really need a buff or two.
On September 29 2012 08:25 Starshaped wrote: Thank God...
As if Protoss all-ins weren't strong enough without an extra fifty billion DPS in the form of mothership core.
Anyway, mech won't be fully viable until mines become an upgrade for hellions imo. 2 supply mines are just way too gimmicky/situational. Mech needs a vulture in the form of hellion with mines.
Also buff tank damage. They just aren't the point-controlling super-scary-when-sieged unit they should be. Sure, the damage pre-buff was broken as hell on maps like Steppes of War, but with modern maps being so huge tanks really need a buff or two.
I do agree that mines need to be modified in some way, however, I'm not sure if they should come from the hellion.
How would they balance around the fact that it can form into a Battle Hellion as well? That would be tough to balance. A lot of roles in one unit.
On September 29 2012 08:16 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Ugh Locust attack range back up, as far as I'm concerned it should be melee, the fucking unit is completely free.
Right now in Wol, Melee upgrades are far more beneficial, in comparison to range. If they were to make locusts also melee. They are even more so overloading the benefits for melee over range.
I honestly think that the balance between these upgrades, is the main reason to why they switched them over to ranged.
I agree strongly with this statement.
I've noticed myself upgrading range significantly more in HotS. With speed now available, this also promoted hydralisk use once I hit hive
On September 29 2012 08:11 Valon wrote: The purify part of the core looks cool however the recall part i'm not to thrilled about, and the weapon, Thought the core was supposed to be a defensive unit. It seems to be turning into an offensive unit.
The weapon is equivalent to a single +2 marine that attacks slower, I think the purpose for adding that weapon in, is so that on some maps, like daybreak for example, if you attach it to your nexus, and they're pushing your ramp, is won't reach.
That's my personal opinion of what I think the weapon is for. However, purify probably does work on daybreak because you sort of wall off close to your nexus, so I'm not sure. I can't think of any other reason they'd add an attack like that. :/
On September 29 2012 08:25 Starshaped wrote: Thank God...
As if Protoss all-ins weren't strong enough without an extra fifty billion DPS in the form of mothership core.
Anyway, mech won't be fully viable until mines become an upgrade for hellions imo. 2 supply mines are just way too gimmicky/situational. Mech needs a vulture in the form of hellion with mines.
Also buff tank damage. They just aren't the point-controlling super-scary-when-sieged unit they should be. Sure, the damage pre-buff was broken as hell on maps like Steppes of War, but with modern maps being so huge tanks really need a buff or two.
I do agree that mines need to be modified in some way, however, I'm not sure if they should come from the hellion.
How would they balance around the fact that it can form into a Battle Hellion as well? That would be tough to balance. A lot of roles in one unit.
Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention that battle mode should be removed if they get the mines.
Right now the battle hellion business is just too convoluted imo. You can build both forms from the start, but need a 100/100 upgrade to switch between them? And then one form is bio all of a sudden, but not the other? And it's not like the battle mode is always optimal for big fights anyway, due to the small range they get.
I don't think a unit that's so good at harassing and already quite fine in army compositions should get a "battle mode". It's already kind of overkill imo, even if they didn't get mines.
It is hard to understand what they have been doing for 2.5 years, when they have even have had the privilege of seeing thousands of their own game played.
On September 29 2012 08:08 avilo wrote: That's it for Terran? -_- good change though, 4 sec to burrow seemed like forever. Supply cost is still too expensive imo.
I think its in an awkward window where 1 supply widow mines would be retarded and extremely overpowered, but 2 is a liittle too much, but we are stuck with whole integars. Cant really go around setting units to 1.5 supply, and i dont think blizzard wants to nerf it, either, its difficult to rebalance construction time and other factors
I'm sad about the fact that you need Mothership Core with your army now. This isn't decreasing the Death Ball. Now Protoss just always run around in one ball, like with Mothership army.
Mothership Core is the speed of an Observer, so now it is absolutely possible to have it in your army. Oracle speed nerf, now means that Mutalisks can hunt down Oracles.
On September 29 2012 08:08 avilo wrote: That's it for Terran? -_- good change though, 4 sec to burrow seemed like forever. Supply cost is still too expensive imo.
I think its in an awkward window where 1 supply widow mines would be retarded and extremely overpowered, but 2 is a liittle too much, but we are stuck with whole integars. Cant really go around setting units to 1.5 supply, and i dont think blizzard wants to nerf it, either, its difficult to rebalance construction time and other factors
Could make it so you buy 2 at a time for 3 supply.
The mothership core is just embarrassing at this stage. Blizzard is just encouraging the deathball more and more. There was a time when all of the new toss units were not useful in the deathball, now they all belong in it. Fucking hell blizzard get it together.
I wouldn't write off the recall change completely. For early harassment, it's still possible to keep the MSC back and out of the fight and then fall back to it / trigger if the fight isn't going well. If you were to get trapped by a ling surround, it's not an automatic get out of jail free. I think this change provides some interesting opportunities for strategic positioning of an aggressive army and a nearby supporting MSC.
A new ranged weapon called Repulsor Cannon has been added to the mothership core while in its mobile state. Repulsor Cannon deals 8 damage to ground units with an attack speed of 0.85.
Guys, what is the point of this ranged weapon addition? I thought this unit was designed for defense.......
As you’ve likely noticed, we’re still actively tuning the numbers on many of the new units we’re introducing in Heart of the Swarm. We’re making these changes after frequently referring to the stats from the beta, our play experiences, discussions taking place on the community forums and fan sites, and pro feedback. We think there’s still a ways to go in terms of number tweaks and are working hard to bring you the best experience possible.
The main design changes for this week are surrounding the mothership core. Due to the variety in maps, we found that no matter how slow we made the mothership core’s movement speed, deadly all-in strategies exist on many different maps and/or positions. To ensure that this unit does not limit us as well as the many tournament map makers around the world, we decided to go in a new direction.
The mothership core’s Purify ability is now cast on a Nexus attaching the unit to the Nexus and enabling a weapon that deals 20 damage. The mothership core will remain attached to the Nexus until cancelled; however, energy will not be regenerated and no abilities can be used while attached. Additionally, the Recall ability has been modified to teleport the mothership core and units nearby to a targeted Nexus. Both of these changes were made to discourage the unit from being used in all-ins. Now that its two spells are strictly defensive, we believe we can make a cooler mothership core. It will now move at a reasonably fast speed and feature an anti-ground attack. We hope these changes will make the unit a lot more fun to use.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Next on the design docket:
We’re currently looking at ways to alter the design of the widow mine so that it feels like core terran unit. We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations. These are the main things we’re looking at right now, so we encourage you to share your feedback regarding these two topics.
Thank you so much for playing the beta and giving us your feedback. Please remember that nothing is final; we’re doing our best on each of the three races and hope to continue working with our players in order to make Heart of the Swarm awesome.
On September 29 2012 08:51 Inf-badguy wrote: I wouldn't write off the recall change completely. For early harassment, it's still possible to keep the MSC back and out of the fight and then fall back to it / trigger if the fight isn't going well. If you were to get trapped by a ling surround, it's not an automatic get out of jail free. I think this change provides some interesting opportunities for strategic positioning of an aggressive army and a nearby supporting MSC.
Exactly. This seems to be the way to do it. Recall was really good without much drawback. This way you have to plan your exit ahead of time and need a safe way to fall back to your MSC.
The mothership core.... I think purify was a good fix, but I'm really skeptical on how they reworked recall. Recall was quite good the way it was and I think it could have been tweaked to fix it a little better (i.e. adding a max unit cap of like 16, increasing the energy cost to 125, etc). It's just...weird now to think that you need your mothership core floating somewhere on the map in order to be able to move out.
Also kind of in agreement with the person who talked about protoss all-ins. With this new change, MSC comes along with the army, CAN USE AN ATTACK, spot the high ground, and if the all-in seems to be failing, protoss can recall with little to no severe drawbacks.For those who thought that protoss had gimmicky attacks before, they now have an even more gimmicky way to play.
Good changes overall, really like the mine change, although the supply cost is still too much at the moment, i think. Some people are voting for the tank buff, but i don't know. I think they're pretty scary already :/
Mothership core is getting better every patch, imo. Also, the oracle change is good. it being slower but more durable makes it a more stable option.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Yea. Blizzard is finally going to give us some good maps to play on. Though I feel like this might end up extending the beta testing period.
Also nice to see David Kim giving us an overview what what they are actually looking to fix in the future.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Yea. Blizzard is finally going to give us some good maps to play on. Though I feel like this might end up extending the beta testing period.
Also nice to see David Kim giving us an overview what what they are actually looking to fix in the future.
I agree, I love how much it feels they're listening and interacting with the community instead of just doing whatever they think is right. Also, I think it's better design-wise that way anyway, I mean they're making the game for us gamers so it's only right that they interact with us.
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
you do realize that 1.875 is still pretty slow?
People used the old core to teleport offensivly. Blizzard obviously didn''t like that, so now you can only teleport back in your base instead of right into your opponents face. And the movement speed is just a number. Personaly i think it is totaly fine, but if it turns out to be to low, blizzard will simply increase it. Design wise i like the new core much more.
I'm very glad they made change to the mothership core. I haven't been able to connect to battle.net since the server went live. Anyone else having this problem?
On September 29 2012 08:59 SC2John wrote: The mothership core.... I think purify was a good fix, but I'm really skeptical on how they reworked recall. Recall was quite good the way it was and I think it could have been tweaked to fix it a little better (i.e. adding a max unit cap of like 16, increasing the energy cost to 125, etc). It's just...weird now to think that you need your mothership core floating somewhere on the map in order to be able to move out.
Also kind of in agreement with the person who talked about protoss all-ins. With this new change, MSC comes along with the army, CAN USE AN ATTACK, spot the high ground, and if the all-in seems to be failing, protoss can recall with little to no severe drawbacks.For those who thought that protoss had gimmicky attacks before, they now have an even more gimmicky way to play.
MSC is going to be the new warp gate.
This. Recall seemed like a decent designed ability, that should have been balanced rather than reworked.
Interesting changes, will be nice to see if the burrow time allows you to use the mine more reactively rather than losing it if there's any units at all nearby.
On September 29 2012 08:08 avilo wrote: That's it for Terran? -_- good change though, 4 sec to burrow seemed like forever. Supply cost is still too expensive imo.
I think its in an awkward window where 1 supply widow mines would be retarded and extremely overpowered, but 2 is a liittle too much, but we are stuck with whole integars. Cant really go around setting units to 1.5 supply, and i dont think blizzard wants to nerf it, either, its difficult to rebalance construction time and other factors
widow mines aren't a guarantee though. i do think 1 supply might be a little too good and 2 being not good enough. Maybe they should make the cost 50/25 instead of 75/25.
Can we please go back to the original mother ship core?
Stick it on a nexus, let it move from nex to nex for 25 energy.
Let me recall from anywhere, I don't need it to come with my army. I don't want it to come with my army. I dont need a mothership light to come along to recall me back to some nexus,.
I dont get the MS change. Were they really worried about offensive recalls? I feel if someone was stupid enough to let their opponent proxy a nexus, build a core, wait for the required energy then recall into their base deserved to lose. Even if you don't proxy the nexus it takes sooooo long to get it across the map, they have plenty of time to prepare. Now it's just another dumb addition that is added to the death ball which just slows the deathball speed down and makes the recall ability impossible to use if you don't add it to your deathball.
And I mean giving it a passive attack and increased movement speed? Wasn't it meant to be a defensive unit? I wonder if blizzard even remembers the reason why they introduced the unit in the first place as they disfigure it beyond recognition.
Just anchor it to a nexus like it originally was and give it a token energy cost to warp between them, and give it adaquete range so they can't just run up your ramp to avoid it.
I still feel the oracle is boring and has little utility in battle (despite the 4 second fungal prevention) but its nice that it won't die to a cold breeze now.
On September 29 2012 08:59 SC2John wrote: The mothership core.... I think purify was a good fix, but I'm really skeptical on how they reworked recall. Recall was quite good the way it was and I think it could have been tweaked to fix it a little better (i.e. adding a max unit cap of like 16, increasing the energy cost to 125, etc). It's just...weird now to think that you need your mothership core floating somewhere on the map in order to be able to move out.
Also kind of in agreement with the person who talked about protoss all-ins. With this new change, MSC comes along with the army, CAN USE AN ATTACK, spot the high ground, and if the all-in seems to be failing, protoss can recall with little to no severe drawbacks.For those who thought that protoss had gimmicky attacks before, they now have an even more gimmicky way to play.
MSC is going to be the new warp gate.
This. Recall seemed like a decent designed ability, that should have been balanced rather than reworked.
With 1.875 Speed they couldn't keep the old recall on the MSC. The old slow as fuck MSC could teleport an entire army in your base pretty early if you send the MSC on its way once it you got it. With 1.875 which is not that slow ( Thors , BC's , Carriers are just as fast ) this would become stupidly strong. Just completely circumvent any defense very very early.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
And I like the changes as well. I think people are overreacting to the whole Recall "nerf." Honestly, having additional attack power (which is like one and a half stalkers) for no energy (if i'm understanding correctly), is a pretty nice balance to go alongside having to tag along with it. And it reasonably gives the opponent the ability to address it (by killing the MSC), rather than just being free (which is kind of crazy). It still allows for some pretty strong MSC backed pushes, and again going up 50/50 to add a Stalker+ in damage (which is cheaper that an actual Stalker for that damage), means that it's a technically stronger push.
Plus, let's also not forget that Purify also enhances these pushes too. You push out, hit the edge of their base, and they drop your main. Well... you don't want to Recall (because you believe you can crack it), but you also don't want to just let the drop happen unhindered. That's when you Purify.
Basically:
Opponent has better army = Recall out. Opponent splits army = Purify out.
On September 29 2012 08:59 SC2John wrote: The mothership core.... I think purify was a good fix, but I'm really skeptical on how they reworked recall. Recall was quite good the way it was and I think it could have been tweaked to fix it a little better (i.e. adding a max unit cap of like 16, increasing the energy cost to 125, etc). It's just...weird now to think that you need your mothership core floating somewhere on the map in order to be able to move out.
Also kind of in agreement with the person who talked about protoss all-ins. With this new change, MSC comes along with the army, CAN USE AN ATTACK, spot the high ground, and if the all-in seems to be failing, protoss can recall with little to no severe drawbacks.For those who thought that protoss had gimmicky attacks before, they now have an even more gimmicky way to play.
MSC is going to be the new warp gate.
This. Recall seemed like a decent designed ability, that should have been balanced rather than reworked.
With 1.875 Speed they couldn't keep the old recall on the MSC. The old slow as fuck MSC could teleport an entire army in your base pretty early if you went the MSC on its way once it you got it. With 1.875 which is not that slow ( Thors , BC's , Carriers are just as fast ) this would become stupidly strong. Just completely circumvent any defense very very early.
This way is actually much more balanced, because they can threaten destroying the MSC negating (or forcing) a Recall. Before, there was basically nothing the opponent could do. While it could be (or perhaps even was) "balanced," it denied interactivity, which seems kind of important in a multiplayer game. It's not an issue I saw with it originally, but now that it's been brought to my attention, I wholeheartedly agree with the change.
Having 1 hero unit wasn't enough now Protoss has 2 hero units... Fucking hate this patch. Oracle changes were fine now they don't auto die to turrets and spores.
Edit: sorry first reaction to reading the mothership core. Protoss doesn't need more gimmicky shit T_T
Meh, still nothing for terran -_-. I've been playing as random now on the beta and both zerg and protoss got new options and stuff to do. Terran just still feels like playing WoL, only change is battle helions
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
I disagree with this expanding even the first one should never be taken for granted automatically . Makes for boring games.
Loving the mothership core changes; solves a lot of the offensive issues while maintaining the core's defensive potential. Still preferred the initial idea of being attached to the nexus and being able to jump between them but this is definitely a step in the right direction.
If they want to replace Phase Shield with something more interesting that still counters Fungals they should do this:
Phase Shift 100 energy All friendly and enemy units within 6 range are briefly shifted out of reality, removing all Harmful effects and decreasing damage dealt and damage taken by 50% for 5 seconds. Units may still move and use abilities while Shifted.
This would have a very similar effect as an anti-Fungal but could also be used as a "pause button" to slow down a fight. Void rays would still be able to gain charge-up while shifted.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
I disagree with this expanding even the first one should never be taken for granted automatically . Makes for boring games.
Yeah, there should be some maps without expansions. Having the option to expand every game is boring.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
I disagree with this expanding even the first one should never be taken for granted automatically . Makes for boring games.
Yeah, there should be some maps without expansions. Having the option to expand every game is boring.
No but super fast expanding should be a calculated risk that can be exploited not be super duper save. A few sentrys and a mothership core alone should not keep you save against aggressive builds on more then 1 base.
On September 29 2012 08:16 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Ugh Locust attack range back up, as far as I'm concerned it should be melee, the fucking unit is completely free.
Right now in Wol, Melee upgrades are far more beneficial, in comparison to range. If they were to make locusts also melee. They are even more so overloading the benefits for melee over range.
I honestly think that the balance between these upgrades, is the main reason to why they switched them over to ranged.
It just plain looks retarded - if it's scaling with melee upgrades then make the base damage lower? The unit itself looks silly (at least when firing) I really do like the idea in many ways but I feel ranged units aren't the right way for this.
This can't be the best way to compensate for offensive usage you didn't want to see. Back to WoL until the next "fix." May as well just remove all of the toss units, to eliminate the distraction of pointless stuff.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
I meant, they don't have to accommodate using Purify. Perhaps, I'm uninformed, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that Protoss players had been one-basing the entire time waiting for Purify to come around.
And more to the details of your post, if tournament maps are tailoring to specific strategies (and I completely agree with you that they do), does it really matter? If they are just going to tailor a map to accommodate "staple strategy," then the notion of their being "design constraints" is illusionary, because they aren't designing. They are just following someone else's instructions, and thus nothing is lost. I actually think that this sort of take-the-meta-by-the-hand approach is more of a downside for the game's development than a plus. Sure, you appease the player base by giving them what they expect. But if that's all you're going to do, there's never going to be anything new or at least it's going to become increasingly rare. I.e. I'd rather see players figuring out a map, then maps figuring out players.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
I disagree with this expanding even the first one should never be taken for granted automatically . Makes for boring games.
Yeah, there should be some maps without expansions. Having the option to expand every game is boring.
No but super fast expanding should be a calculated risk that can be exploited not be super duper save. A few sentrys and a mothership core alone should not keep you save against aggressive builds on more then 1 base.
They're giving P the option to put a 10 range cannon on their nexus so that it will be possible to defend an expansion in PvP. On any map where you can't defend with the nexus-cannon, PvP expansions won't happen. This is why every map will position the nexus and the ramps so that you can defend them with the nexus-cannon.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
And I like the changes as well. I think people are overreacting to the whole Recall "nerf." Honestly, having additional attack power (which is like one and a half stalkers) for no energy (if i'm understanding correctly), is a pretty nice balance to go alongside having to tag along with it. And it reasonably gives the opponent the ability to address it (by killing the MSC), rather than just being free (which is kind of crazy). It still allows for some pretty strong MSC backed pushes, and again going up 50/50 to add a Stalker+ in damage (which is cheaper that an actual Stalker for that damage), means that it's a technically stronger push.
Plus, let's also not forget that Purify also enhances these pushes too. You push out, hit the edge of their base, and they drop your main. Well... you don't want to Recall (because you believe you can crack it), but you also don't want to just let the drop happen unhindered. That's when you Purify.
Basically:
Opponent has better army = Recall out. Opponent splits army = Purify out.
Sounds pretty good to me.
Is Entomb good now? lol.
You have to be within 10 range of the nexus to cast Purify on it.
It just occurred to me that the widow mine change means that Blizzard expects it to be used offensively. A few more changes like this and the whole unit won't look or work anything like a mine anymore.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
They don't have to be designed that way, because they don't have to accommodate all strategies.
All maps have to accomodate expanding.....
If this mechanic sticks around, I guarantee you will never see a HOTS tournament map where the nexus at the natural is more than 8 range from the ramp into the main. You're also going to see every single map structured so that the cannon on the nexus can defend the choke into the natural so that purify can synergize with forcefields.
Purify is in the game to be a standard defensive tool for taking a second base, and every single map is going to be structured in such a way that purify can be used as intended.
Perhaps, I'm uninformed, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think that Protoss players had been one-basing the entire time waiting for Purify to come around.
I love that you tried to be a smartass and accidentally wound up describing the WoL PvP experience to a tee.
If tournament maps are tailoring to specific strategies (and I completely agree with you that they do), does it really matter? If they are just going to tailor a map to accommodate "staple strategy," then the notion of their being "design constraints" is illusionary, because they aren't designing. They are just following someone else's instructions, and thus nothing is lost. I actually think that this sort of take-the-meta-by-the-hand approach is more of a downside for the game's development than a plus.
The more features maps need to share in order to be tournament quality, the less map diversity there will be.
Look at every tournament map right now. Maybe you've noticed that your main macro build works on every single map in the ladder pool? That's because all of the maps are the same.
They all have a narrow ramp into the main, a closed natural with a narrow choke (never more than 3 forcefields wide, and usually uphill), and a third base that's close to the natural and has a maximum of two entrances (one of which usually leads to the natural). Even the entrances to the third bases are typically narrow enough to be closed by a handful of forcefields.
Why does this happen? So that P can expand against Z. P's early units are much slower and weaker for cost than Z's early units except in chokes, so map-makers are forced to squish the bases together and give P a bunch of chokes that they can abuse to get their economy up.
Blizzard, it seems, has no idea what they're doing with the MSC. Now players are encouraged to gather all their units under the MSC umbrella; something that's opposite of what Blizzard said they wanted to do.
i like that you turn off the auto cast from the wido mine, even thow it becomes a terran borrowed baneling (yay) but i would still like to see atleast 1 more new unit since the warhound was removed.
how much energy the new recall will cost? it will mean toss will have to save ALOT of cb to be a little bit aggresive? i gues no more stalker harrasment
edit: or wait for the core have enough energy for energyse then go for the harrasment?
As you’ve likely noticed, we’re still actively tuning the numbers on many of the new units we’re introducing in Heart of the Swarm. We’re making these changes after frequently referring to the stats from the beta, our play experiences, discussions taking place on the community forums and fan sites, and pro feedback. We think there’s still a ways to go in terms of number tweaks and are working hard to bring you the best experience possible.
The main design changes for this week are surrounding the mothership core. Due to the variety in maps, we found that no matter how slow we made the mothership core’s movement speed, deadly all-in strategies exist on many different maps and/or positions. To ensure that this unit does not limit us as well as the many tournament map makers around the world, we decided to go in a new direction.
The mothership core’s Purify ability is now cast on a Nexus attaching the unit to the Nexus and enabling a weapon that deals 20 damage. The mothership core will remain attached to the Nexus until cancelled; however, energy will not be regenerated and no abilities can be used while attached. Additionally, the Recall ability has been modified to teleport the mothership core and units nearby to a targeted Nexus. Both of these changes were made to discourage the unit from being used in all-ins. Now that its two spells are strictly defensive, we believe we can make a cooler mothership core. It will now move at a reasonably fast speed and feature an anti-ground attack. We hope these changes will make the unit a lot more fun to use.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Next on the design docket:
We’re currently looking at ways to alter the design of the widow mine so that it feels like core terran unit. We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations. These are the main things we’re looking at right now, so we encourage you to share your feedback regarding these two topics.
Thank you so much for playing the beta and giving us your feedback. Please remember that nothing is final; we’re doing our best on each of the three races and hope to continue working with our players in order to make Heart of the Swarm awesome.
Where can I donate $5 to the "Blizzard never makes 1v1 maps again" fund? Why add in shitty maps when there is a TON of mapmakers wanting to make good maps? Cmon..... People need to bitch about this more, or this will be WoL all over again.
On September 29 2012 07:57 jcroisdale wrote: The Mothership core seems so cool now, Like a General of your army to be on the battlefield.
So like a hero unit, like the mothership. I am not sure I like this design. I would prefer it to be attached to the nexus like in the early previews.
It's nothing like a hero unit. A hero unit in Warcraft3 could level up, carry item and solo kill a maxed out army. With that said the Mothership core could however be viewed as a "Unique" unit and I don't like the concept of "Unique" units in multiplayer either.
EDIT: Amazing how they managed to sneak in the bunker changes.
The changes to the MsC are really drastic and awesome at the same time. I imagine that something similar is going to happen to the Widow mine. All in all, I have to thank Blizzard for listening so intently to player feedback. You get a lot of flak, Blizz, but this time, I feel like you did good.
Balance Update #2: Entomb’s duration has been reduced to 25 sec, but the health per Entomb has increased to 100.
Balance Update #3: Entomb’s duration has increased to 30 seconds. The health of Entombed nodes has increased from 100 to 130.
Balance Update #4: The duration of Entomb has increased from 30 to 45.
To me, that reads: Buff, buff, buff.
Entomb was way underpowered at the start of the beta, and the cumulative effect of the changes is that the health per mineral patch was increased from 75 to 130. Bunker changes just increased and reduced build time and didn't really go anywhere.
On a different note: YES, really happy with MSC changes, definitely a huge step in the right direction.
On September 29 2012 10:32 Crawdad wrote: The changes to the MsC are really drastic and awesome at the same time. I imagine that something similar is going to happen to the Widow mine. All in all, I have to thank Blizzard for listening so intently to player feedback. You get a lot of flak, Blizz, but this time, I feel like you did good.
Yeah, I feel like they did exactly what I asked them to do. Time to move onto the widow mine. Blizz, please do this:
I like the changes. The mines seem much snappier now, quick and don't kill each other. I like the mother ship core changes, as it allows offence, but you can't be sloppy or allow it to get sniped. Also, like that it add some ground offence in the early game
On September 29 2012 08:00 pmp10 wrote: I get the purify change but the recall one not so much. Wasn't the whole purpose of the recall ability to allow early game harassment? Given the speed of mothership core I have trouble picturing it happen at all.
Did you read "Movement speed has increased from 0.47 to 1.875."?
you do realize that 1.875 is still pretty slow?
ehh its not that slow. thats like the same speed as the hoverlord... err turbolor.. overlord right?
As you’ve likely noticed, we’re still actively tuning the numbers on many of the new units we’re introducing in Heart of the Swarm. We’re making these changes after frequently referring to the stats from the beta, our play experiences, discussions taking place on the community forums and fan sites, and pro feedback. We think there’s still a ways to go in terms of number tweaks and are working hard to bring you the best experience possible.
The main design changes for this week are surrounding the mothership core. Due to the variety in maps, we found that no matter how slow we made the mothership core’s movement speed, deadly all-in strategies exist on many different maps and/or positions. To ensure that this unit does not limit us as well as the many tournament map makers around the world, we decided to go in a new direction.
The mothership core’s Purify ability is now cast on a Nexus attaching the unit to the Nexus and enabling a weapon that deals 20 damage. The mothership core will remain attached to the Nexus until cancelled; however, energy will not be regenerated and no abilities can be used while attached. Additionally, the Recall ability has been modified to teleport the mothership core and units nearby to a targeted Nexus. Both of these changes were made to discourage the unit from being used in all-ins. Now that its two spells are strictly defensive, we believe we can make a cooler mothership core. It will now move at a reasonably fast speed and feature an anti-ground attack. We hope these changes will make the unit a lot more fun to use.
We’ve also been carefully monitoring your feedback regarding the map pool and agree that Fractured Glacier isn’t a very competitive 1v1 map. In the future, we will be removing this from the ladder pool and will be replacing it with a new map. Additionally, three Wings of Liberty maps will be added into the beta map pool at a later date. Our current plan is to implement these map pool changes as soon as possible and stick with these eight maps for the remainder of the beta. We anticipate that Heart of the Swarm Season 1 will feature the same map pool; however, this is definitely not set in stone, so feedback on the updated map pool is greatly appreciated.
Next on the design docket:
We’re currently looking at ways to alter the design of the widow mine so that it feels like core terran unit. We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations. These are the main things we’re looking at right now, so we encourage you to share your feedback regarding these two topics.
Thank you so much for playing the beta and giving us your feedback. Please remember that nothing is final; we’re doing our best on each of the three races and hope to continue working with our players in order to make Heart of the Swarm awesome.
Where can I donate $5 to the "Blizzard never makes 1v1 maps again" fund? Why add in shitty maps when there is a TON of mapmakers wanting to make good maps? Cmon..... People need to bitch about this more, or this will be WoL all over again.
On September 29 2012 10:11 SpunXtain03 wrote: ... Increased swarm host range? =.=
It was needed, Swarm Hosts are pretty awful atm against any Siege tank compositions whether it be Marine/Tank or Mech
Non-Protosses should read the attached Blog before complaining about the lack of their race changes - David Kim said the update was specifically about the Mothership Core and next update is the Widow Mine.
For people complaining about recall, sorry you're not going to be able to recall at any point in time. Yes, you might actually have to have a fallback point with your harassment. It's still very strong.
What if Entomb affected units instead of mineral patches?
It would be like stasis from BW but the entombed player could attack them to free the unit, it could still be used for mineral harass by targeting workers and it would give the Oracle a more offensive ability to use as well.
So now the MS-core is basically same dps as an infested terran. I'm not sure if like the new purify changes, it created some very interested PvZ early containment scenarios. Recall changes are good, much more balanced now.
*What is the range on the MS-core now? Does anyone know?
1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
On September 29 2012 11:09 Zenniv wrote: So now the MS-core is basically same dps as an infested terran. I'm not sure if like the new purify changes, it created some very interested PvZ early containment scenarios. Recall changes are good, much more balanced now.
*What is the range on the MS-core now? Does anyone know?
Range on the Mothership Core is 5 using normal attack (Repulsor Cannon). Its Purify ability allows it to attack with a range of 10, but it must be attached to a Nexus.
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
A Queen would solo a Mothership Core, 8 damage a shot vs 350 hp, that's about 35 hits to kill 1 Queen.
Does anyone know why they disconnected it from the nexus in the first place?
I feel like would have worked far better then, and its abilities could be far more powerful and interested when it wasn't some weird unit/staticd hybrid.
On September 29 2012 11:09 Zenniv wrote: So now the MS-core is basically same dps as an infested terran. I'm not sure if like the new purify changes, it created some very interested PvZ early containment scenarios. Recall changes are good, much more balanced now.
*What is the range on the MS-core now? Does anyone know?
Range on the Mothership Core is 5 using normal attack (Repulsor Cannon). Its Purify ability allows it to attack with a range of 10, but it must be attached to a Nexus.
Lmao, now MS-core is exactly a flying infested Terran. ( a bit faster ;D)
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
A Queen would solo a Mothership Core, 8 damage a shot vs 350 hp, that's about 35 hits to kill 1 Queen.
isnt the queen ground to air range 7?....queen is going to kite msc all day long
Very interesting. As a Protoss player, this patch intrigues me to say the least. I agree with a previous poster, the mothership core's functioning may seem a bit complex for the casual player. It feels a bit out of place considering the fact that most of sc2's design is usually clear and concise.
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
A Queen would solo a Mothership Core, 8 damage a shot vs 350 hp, that's about 35 hits to kill 1 Queen.
False speculation. I tested it out. The new mothership core kills off a queen with 55 health left. That means it would only be able to kill off one queen, before it takes enough hull damage and unable to kill another. Keep in mind that the MS-core deals 8 dmg per shot with a weapon speed of 0.85, while a queen deals 4 damage a shot at a weapon speed of 1.
Also, the mothership core is perfect for denying overlords now and keeping zergs in the dark.
Interesting thing to note: the mothership core can also solo a single stalker.
edit: Sorry for the misinfo. Mothership core can only attack ground.
Um no, mothership core is 1.875 speed. Obs is 1.8x as fast with speed, and 1.2x as fast without.
You have to remember though that zealots, colossi, immortals, sentries, archons, basically most of protoss's shit moves at the same speed as the obs, which is 20% faster than the core - and has speed upgrade, if you dont have the upgrade, you hang back a little bit sometimes, not a big deal, but core is a great deal slower.
Can't wrap my head around the new MS core just from numbers, I'll have to see it in action. I think the additional mobility will make Energize a lot better than it was - single sentry laying 16 force fields during a battle gogogo!
Swarm host change is clearly in the right direction. To be worth anything at all the locusts have to reliably get in for damage, but the damage they deal once they get there is an easy knob to adjust.
On September 29 2012 11:21 Natengall wrote: False speculation. I tested it out. The new mothership core kills off a queen with 55 health left. That means it would only be able to kill off one queen, before it takes enough hull damage and unable to kill another. Keep in mind that the MS-core deals 8 dmg per shot with a weapon speed of 0.85, while a queen deals 4 damage a shot at a weapon speed of 1.
Also, the mothership core is perfect for denying overlords now and keeping zergs in the dark.
Interesting thing to note: the mothership core can also solo a single stalker.
What is this universe where kiting does not exist?
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
how do you harass with a slow ass unit that does no dmg
-oracle is too slow -locusts have too much range -mother ship core is too expensive for the somewhat useless abilities it does. Its damage is too low now.
Edit. When I said mothership core damage, I meant purify damage
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
You've got it backwards. It WAS a harass unit BEFORE this patch. Blizzard did this specifically so that it COULDN'T be used as offensively as it once was. It is now WAY more of a defensive unit.
Wow...huge nerf for recall. Mass recall was the one fun and creative addition for protoss from Blizzard and they ruined it How on earth are protoss supposed to use it now? It's a deathball only ability now. Just too slow to use in the fashion Blizzard envisions...especially for big maps.
I think recall should stay on the nexus and the radius should be extremely small (encourage harass). This promotes keeping your entire army in a clump again.
On September 29 2012 11:58 Fungal Growth wrote: Wow...huge nerf for recall. Mass recall was the one fun and creative addition for protoss from Blizzard and they ruined it How on earth are protoss supposed to use it now? It's a deathball only ability now. Just too slow to use in the fashion Blizzard envisions...especially for big maps.
It was only used to "bring the deathball to you". It makes more sense as a defensive ability than an offensive one.
On September 29 2012 12:19 thejamster wrote: new mothership core is sooo fast! you can totally just use the motehrship core to get vision up a ramp to warp in and 4gate really consistently
As far a I know, you cant warp in units over a cliff in HotS.
sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
I am not a protoss player (Terran) but I have to say I like this patch. The MsC play will look really fun as it will be target fire down to prevent any escape. I am happy to see blizzard changing the radius on recall. Mass recall only encourage death ball play. I hope that they continue to play around with the energy cost and radius of recall. With the new MsC speed, protoss players can stage some interesting strategy which is awesome.
In PvP, the defender can gain the advantage of purifier. But this no longer shuts down early aggression because the player can use recall to retreat. (also, purifier is on a time bomb as the energy will run out if not canceled...etc) I am exciting to see the new PvP matchup.
Overall, I am happy to see this patch. It sounds awesome.
As others have noted, 100/100 is pretty expensive for such a low-damage unit. I'm guessing purify's damage will get a buff before all is said and done. And 100/100 for is costly enough to make you not want to build one for an all-in (in an all-in, it's basically just a floating marine). Zergs will want to scout for mothership core to see if you're going to all-in them.
And now that you need to have it with your army to use it's recall, they might need to increase its health pool so that it doesn't get picked off too quickly by vikings.
On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote: sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
I personally don't like hero units, I feel like that was for the Warcraft franchise, not for SC. Also, I feel like if they aren't going to give any more new units/abilities to terrans besides reaperlol, mines, and bhellion, there won't be that much changes to their meta compared to the other 2 races which is unfortunate..
On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote: sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote: sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting.
The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out.
I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability.
On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote: sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting.
The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out.
I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability.
it was 0.47 speed unit. You just send a few stalkers/marines/queens to kill it before it drops anything at your main natural.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus? Is it realy intended to defend the whole of the protoss base early game ? No need for that at all,it is fine just defending the mineral line and maybe a small area around it where you place your production, it has still 4 more range then a pf (or 3 if upgrade pf)
Annyway:Find the motership core a verry silly unit, and i think blizzard feels the same. Seeing that they have no clear plan with the unit and keep changing it drastically. Go back to the first version of msc, atached to nexus and no recall. Recall is just to strong early game, trying to solve it by having the unit wich casts recall to go with your army creates other problems. They try to get to manny different functions (everything protoss was missing) some of wich contradict eachoter in one unit, this will never work imho. Split the abilitys protoss lacks over different units/nexus and it will be alot less gimmicky and easier and smoother to balance.
On September 29 2012 12:25 KivTM wrote: sigh, i thought the entire point of the recall ability was so protoss didnt have to keep their forces clumped up together but could send in small forces to poke/ harass and then recall if things got dicey. These changes go against that completely imo. you're basically forced to send the core with every force now if you want to recall and although it got a speed boost, its still very slow.
That is not what it was being used for, though. It was being used to teleport a whole legion of clumped-up units into your enemy's main.
What ? Most pros handle quite well drops, but are you telling me that they couldn't handle or scout THAT?
Yeah, but there is an expected value to drops. Two drop ships, 16 supply of units. A warp prism, 8 supply and 8-16 supply of warp ins unless it is end game. We can respond with good scouting.
The mother ship core, could be the whole army......might not be.... could be a trap. Guess you have to wait to find out.
I can see the reason for the change and adds some risk to relying on the ability.
it was 0.47 speed unit. You just send a few stalkers/marines/queens to kill it before it drops anything at your main natural.
I get what you are saying, but I rarely saw the core and recall being used for anything other than a 1 base all in. Pro stream or otherwise. This change seems better, requires more multitasking than a single click and has some risk to it.
On September 29 2012 07:57 jcroisdale wrote: The Mothership core seems so cool now, Like a General of your army to be on the battlefield.
So like a hero unit, like the mothership. I am not sure I like this design. I would prefer it to be attached to the nexus like in the early previews.
I didn't like that. Felt really boring. I like some of the stuff we've been seeing where the Protoss floats the MoCore out to their third base, like on that snow map (can't remember the name). It looks so cool floating there protecting your base, and is pretty handy for defense, which I think will be even more so with the Purify changes.
My experience with the changes so far are positive. The mothership core is still fairly offensive, now being able to move with your army. It really assures in pvp that one will be with an offensive pack of units, however, purify makes defending a natural fairly nice. This is useful against terran drops, zealot drops, and mutas. Its not going to eliminate a player using mutas or doing drops, but it still gives us way more maneuverability than in WOL. The usefulness of mass recall is lessened a bit, as you can't harass and pull back the way you could before, as now you'll risk your mothership core as well, however, it's now fast enough to contribute to harass more often. Haven't had a situation where it spawns and i send it to a zerg main early on, so i'm not sure how well it does against queens. Will comment more soon :D
EDIT: Oh, and just to make this clear, the speed of the MSC was basically quadrupled. .47 x 4 = 1.88, and the speed change is to 1.875. Think of how fast an overlord now moves, and look at the mothership core's speed. This unit doesn't have to worry about terrain, as it is a flying unit. It's decently fast, all things considered. The biggest change this really provides, is that it reduces the macro in pvp again, simply because an early expand is a little harder to hold onto again because your opponent is likely to have a core with them. Luckily, you wont have a purify going off in your own base this time... unless you get proxy nexus'd.... which seems like fun.
Eh. Blizzard clearly have a plan for the mothership core - it just didn't involve the toss being able to jump their entire deathball from the opponents third directly into their main. It doesn't even promote deathball play - it just allows for a fallback position. Anyone with any common sense will target fire the MSC. Purify was also far, far too strong.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
I really don't understand what they are trying to accomplish with 2 supply widow mines...
You want Terran players to make fields of defensive mines that cost 2 supply? Terran already has the weakest late game army we don't need 10-20+ supply caught up in almost useless defensive mines. If I want to set up a defense as Terran I will make missile turrets and planetaries like I always have.
Then again I haven't played the beta yet but I just don't see widow mines becoming a "staple unit" until they are either layed by the hellion or made 1 supply.
I think these are good changes, here are some points I've made about the new Core and why it improves the dynamics of Recall and Purify.
1. Now that Recall is tied to the Mothership Core, the enemy now knows the specific army that can be recalled, and can even prevent the recall by targeting down the Core. More interestingly, if the Core is among Colossi against Vikings or Corruptors, the opponent will either need to allow a bit of Colossi fire to occur if they want to stop the Core and its recall, or allow the recall if they want to kill the Colossi first.
2. If the Protoss is harassing and attacking, they now have to pre-emptively decide which army they want to recall. They can move their mothership core from one army to the next, but this becomes a risk reward type scenario because if their core gets spotted or isolated while moving between two armies then it can get picked off, removing any possibility for recall.
3. With purify being an unlimited time defensive cannon until you cancel it, in the early game players who want to be aggressive will have to choose between having base defence and recalling their army. No longer can you keep your core always at your base and purify it when some light harass comes by, then also recall when your army gets in trouble. Obviously you can use recall defensively, but that sacrifices your ability to attack, and if it's only a few hellions or zerglings then it is obviously not as useful as having the core there with Purify.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
There is also similar consideration in other areas when designing maps. For example ramp mechanics seem to be the way they are right now to adjust PvP and to some extent ZvZ. There are some mechanics that are very map dependent, which is a good thing, as it gives map makers more of an opportunity to adjust both balance and gameplay.
But, as others already mentioned, I think hero units are poisoning the protoss metagame (and accordingly all protoss involved matchups). The other races don't need one, why does the protoss? It's only leading to more deathball play (cause you commit all your units, to that strong unique unit) and so the whole protoss race must be balanced around a single endgame scenario (pvz), which is very much do or die without a real possibility of a plan b. I really hope they will just remove the mothership core together with the mothership and finally begin to balance protoss without the reliance of a hero unit. There will be much work to do, but I think its worth it! I would appreciate the mothership/ms core in the campaign but I don't think they should have any room in the multiplayer. Distribute the abilities of these two units to the nexus and the oracle. Nexi could use their energy for purify and recall (like in a former state in the alpha), cloaking and a very small form of vortex (scrap phase shield) could be very nice t3 upgrade abilities for the oracle. That would give protoss players an alternativ besides the deathball in the endgame. The current design doesn't help at all.
If you have the same opinion, I would appreciate if someone repost this or a similar text to the Beta Forums (maybe with better English^^), unfortunatly I cannot do it myself.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
Purify alone is not enough to defend your natural. It is a single photon cannon with range 10. It is enough to force stand offs that would have been a potential stalemate due to rallying units into a full engagement. There's no need to make maps based around it any more than there is a need to make maps based around the defensive use of the range of siege tanks or the colossus.
There's a difference between balancing for economy and balancing for defence. The adjustment made for protoss in most maps is to allow for forge fast expands to defend their natural through the use of buildings to block ling run-bys (the only real early game threat to a toss). This can either occur at the ramp or at the nexus itself. There's little difference in surface area between these two, depending on the size of the ramp as it generally requires 2-3 buildings in order to do this regardless.
This also does not take into account that FFE is only effective vs zerg early aggression. A terran who wants to hit you with a few marauders and a bunch of marines will absolutely annihilate anything less than 3-4 cannons before they have a chance to do any damage at all. Purify is already effective enough on its own, having a 10 range (and meaning, therefore, it can hit colossi). It does its job.
Distribute the abilities of these two units to the nexus and the oracle. Nexi could use their energy for purify and recall (like in a former state in the alpha), cloaking and a very small form of vortex (scrap phase shield) could be very nice t3 upgrade abilities for the oracle. That would give protoss players an alternativ besides the deathball in the endgame. The current design doesn't help at all.
Er, the reason they aren't giving those abilities to a nexus is precisely because the one thing protoss does not need in the game right now is the ability to recall their all ins at will.
On September 29 2012 11:11 Natengall wrote: 1.88 movespeed as an air unit is sufficient to allow it to become a harass unit especially in PvP and PvZ. Who else is looking forward to the Mothership Core harass?
A Queen would solo a Mothership Core, 8 damage a shot vs 350 hp, that's about 35 hits to kill 1 Queen.
False speculation. I tested it out. The new mothership core kills off a queen with 55 health left. That means it would only be able to kill off one queen, before it takes enough hull damage and unable to kill another. Keep in mind that the MS-core deals 8 dmg per shot with a weapon speed of 0.85, while a queen deals 4 damage a shot at a weapon speed of 1.
Also, the mothership core is perfect for denying overlords now and keeping zergs in the dark.
Interesting thing to note: the mothership core can also solo a single stalker.
The Mothership Core attack is ground-only so either I'm missing something or you're telling lies. I suspect the latter.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
It's also balanced for terran and zerg this way, not simply protoss alone. on XNC, zerg holding their own natural was pretty rough because of the surface area around the base, as well as the three attack routes leading into the natural. It became difficult to take a third as well. Terran, likes to wall against zerg as well btw (terran don't have forges, but they have marines and bunkers). The proximity of bases and the ability to hold onto them has evolved because of the way the metagame has evolved. Builds now exist to shut down these early pressures that make holding the Natural so hard on the older maps. That one base play has been figured out, and players are now playing by opening 2base standard, with one base now being the all-in amount of bases. Holding one base all ins has lead to the development of 2base, and 3+ base play. Maps wont be designed around purify expand. Toss will have to adapt. Making maps that are following old standards like XNC, just wouldn't make sense for the way the game is currently played. Pushing the players back to one base tactics, multi-gate (multi-rax) expands isn't very practical for anyone. Playing older styles of play is still valid, but with the development of better timings, these old styles of play are more easily shut down. They can now be held with more economic play and better micro-skills. I expand routinely off of one gate against terran, and manage, with good timings, to hold builds i used to hold on 3gate expands when season one and two were around. The simple trade off is a little more risk for a way better economy. I simply need to be able to micro to hold these pushes. Sure, Some maps are harder to forge fast on than others, but it is still doable. Abusing the fact that a forge fast is difficult for protoss on certain maps comes with a risk. If your six-ten pool utterly fails on, lets say antiga or on one of the new HOTS maps, your going to be very far behind. If blizzard balances things around purify, then their idiots. They've done an alright job so far. If they never changed Antiga simply because seige tanks could shell a main base from the close by air third, they likely wont design things around purify.
On September 29 2012 08:24 kcdc wrote: MsC changes are an improvement. Giving it a reasonable movement speed should make it less frustrating. I wonder what the range is on the low-damage attack.
Blink all-ins will still be good vs Terran. The MsC will still spot for you so you don't need a robo, and it will provide a little damage.
One thing I don't like is that all maps will have to be designed so that important base-defense chokes are near the spot where you'll build your nexus. The game is going to be balanced around P having the option to cast purify on the nexus to attacks, which means every single map will have to position the nexus such that a 10 range cannon on top of the nexus is useful. That already happens on most maps, but it's still a shame to place another constraint on map design options. (Map constraints are already a big problem--check out how the main, natural and thirds are positioined similarly with similar entrances on every single map)
Why should mothership core defend all key choke points when atached to a nexus?
Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural.
Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind.
If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any.
There is also similar consideration in other areas when designing maps. For example ramp mechanics seem to be the way they are right now to adjust PvP and to some extent ZvZ. There are some mechanics that are very map dependent, which is a good thing, as it gives map makers more of an opportunity to adjust both balance and gameplay.
It really feels to me like every modern map plays exactly the same for the first 15 minutes. The only maps in the current ladder pool that play differently are TDA (no ramp into main, unusual third), Daybreak (third is much farther from natural than on modern maps, hard to defend with sentries against Z) and Antiga (easily accessed triple-threat position where you can hit the nat or third by ground or drop the main makes it hard for P to take third vs T and Z).
Notably, these are the three oldest maps in the pool, and P has a hard time taking a third on all three. P's complete lack of map strength in the 8-12 minute period forces every WoL map to be the same. It sucks.
From the looks of things, its like the took away some options from Protoss. Is that really what needs to be done when Toss already has the fewest options and worst units in this expansion???
Mothership Core Purify has been changed to the following: Purify can now only be cast on your Nexus at max 10 range. Once cast, the mothership core will attach itself to the Nexus, transforming into a weapon with range 10. While attached to the Nexus, the mothership core will be unable to cast abilities and regenerate energy. The damage of Purify has been lowered to 20 and can attack both air and ground units. Purify will last until cancelled.
in other words purify is now just a range 10 cannon. cool...
On September 29 2012 13:49 Havik_ wrote: From the looks of things, its like the took away some options from Protoss. Is that really what needs to be done when Toss already has the fewest options and worst units in this expansion???
It would be nice to see another new unit. I'm still not getting much out of the tempest, regardless of where I use it. Oracle is shaping up nicely now. But still. Overall, i agree.
Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
On September 29 2012 09:58 RaiKageRyu wrote: I'm not saying this is bad for the game nor am I stating I like this change of direction. But damn man, Protoss is in essence War3 more than ever.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
On September 29 2012 13:22 Buchan wrote: I really don't understand what they are trying to accomplish with 2 supply widow mines...
You want Terran players to make fields of defensive mines that cost 2 supply? Terran already has the weakest late game army we don't need 10-20+ supply caught up in almost useless defensive mines. If I want to set up a defense as Terran I will make missile turrets and planetaries like I always have.
Then again I haven't played the beta yet but I just don't see widow mines becoming a "staple unit" until they are either layed by the hellion or made 1 supply.
The widow mine should be an early to mid game unit just as in the real world. When militaries suspect in immenent invasion, they lay mines while they rally their tanks to the front.
I support the move of 2 as it deters going mass WM (160 WM?!) late game which given its current set of abilities would allow it to wipe a 200/200 army off the map for simply walking over it.
At 2 supply, a Terran would have to sac the mines to make way for the late game composition. A good HOTS player would then attempt to trick his oppenent's army to walk over the mines.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
They'll tune the cost and stats so that you can expo in PvP. This is a design fix--they'll tweak the numbers in the next couple patches.
tbh, i feel like they made the mothership core worse. Now there's literally no reason for me to leave it in my base, nor do i see the point of lugging a 1.875 movement speed mothership core with me just so that i can use massrecall if need be. This poses many questions but by far i want to know what blizzard are thinking by doing this? Also will the acctual mothership have recall?
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
Warp in on highground is still out right? 4gate won't be a factor in hots if it is
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
I have a protoss friend who also has access into the beta. We're going to try, extensively, the most popular existing builds with the MCore changes. I'll update in this thread on what we find. So far, pvp hasn't been that bad. Blink is being used a little more once again, and 4gates tend to be more or less the same. Purify has actually helped with early timings, like the tin man build, or the 10 supply gateway version. This is because you can use purify to help defend your probes when your opponent fails to win the engagement and charges the mineral line. Some all ins are set back too much by 100-100 cost to justify bringing it with you to deal dmg. From what i've experienced so far with the 4gate, you need to be spot on with your macro and build order to make it work if you want bring a MCore with you.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will.
On September 29 2012 14:08 Axeltl wrote: tbh, i feel like they made the mothership core worse. Now there's literally no reason for me to leave it in my base, nor do i see the point of lugging a 1.875 movement speed mothership core with me just so that i can use massrecall if need be. This poses many questions but by far i want to know what blizzard are thinking by doing this? Also will the acctual mothership have recall?
Mothership still has it's recall ability from WOL.
The MC change is kind of brilliant, and opens up the decision making for protoss. While it will be a core (no pun intended) unit, you can now choose to use it as a defensive unit or a supporting offensive unit. On the D, it helps protect from zerg who will not have any AA for hatchery (and therefore, early) based all-ins. Versus at least marine heavy all in composition, the marines outrange the MC by 1, but it forces positional play to be with the MC. Plus, the speed boost assures you can get it out of the way in time. In lieu of a life boost, the speed buff again gives micro and positioning more of a skilled based unit. Maybe this also doesn't make heavy sentry based turtling a must now that you can purify.
Now on the offensive, you can't just send out the MC by itself. Also, having it with the army gives it a bit of a boost in DPS. AND most of all, if you time it out corrctly, it's easy to do a counter to the toss army that doesn't turn into a base-race necessarily, so long as toss can recall in time.
IMO, this is one of the more daring, important, and awesome changes to gameplay. Can't wait.
EDIT: Also, just want to add that I played a 1v1 ladder skirmish where we didn't attack for awhile so we could get some of the new units. My opponent sent the MC by itself to harass, and 2 queens were capable of fending off the attack (if memory serves...)
EDIT: Also should say that obviously the fine tuning and tweaking for balance needs to happen BUT as far as a design choice, I feel like this was such a great move on the design team's part. Really changes early toss gameplay IMO.
On September 29 2012 14:09 ZeromuS wrote: Ok, so food for thought:
You can get a mothership core to 1v1 a queen, the core wins. And by the time it gets to a zerg base it should have enough energy for a recall.
Awesome pressure forcing 2 queens at main hatch? Or stupid oversight by blizzard?
Just guessing, that by the time a mcore makes it onto the field, a second queen would probably be finished or in production depending on the timings of the zerg's pools and expos. On creep, queens are more than fast enough. This would only be a problem on close spawns on 4player maps. Think, antiga, base to base. It should pose a small threat, but the energy required for the recall likely wouldn't be generated in time. With the 1.875 speed, it gets there pretty fast now. I'm most concerned for how early roach/ling pressure will fair without anti-air. Maybe they can make the viper pull units to the ground or something, lol. As for early mcore harrass, I could really only see a problem if the zergs third on antiga was being hit by it and the creep spread wasn't far enough yet for queens to crawl there. That would mainly be a ladder concern though, since tournaments typically do cross spawns on maps like those.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will.
4 gates don't actually happen that often anymore, but the threat of the build still defines the MU. 4 gate is so strong that it wipes out a wide chunk of the strategic options for PvP, and what's left is essentially a rock-paper-scissors game that's 75% determined by build order luck.
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice.
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again.
Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing?
Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL
I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason.
No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will.
In the last patch, it seemed very sensible to expo very quickly. If people are still under the same notion, then people will probably 4 gate and kill you, if you're stuck doing 8 damage with your msc until you have your natural up. As a toss player, I'm just bewildered at the need for the change, as mass recall in base wasn't a threat if you macro'd, unless you spawned at like closest positions on the smallest map... I guess. And if they attack with purifier, well, I have a core, too. Big deal.
45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate.
EDIT: Also, the duration was so short that it sucked at defense, anyway.
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate.
Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core.
On September 29 2012 08:05 Sabu113 wrote: They gutted the recall ;(. Now we just have the mothership moved from the stargate to the nex. Less interesting control of space too. Might have been necessary but definitely less interesting.
Mothership core moves at the same speed as a high templar. I don't think we'll be seeing roving stalker groups any time in the earlygame. It'd be nice if they let protoss have some edges for once.
Stalkers already rove around in groups early game as long as there aren't a tonne of speedlings on the map and later on as long as they have blink. The more important thing is being able to move around with sentries, which are still fairly slow so I think it is reasonable.
On September 29 2012 14:38 JSRazor wrote: Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core.
I agree, which is why Blizzard changed it. Short duration and high damage is just begging to be abused for offense instead of defense. Now, it can be argued that the new Purify doesn't do enough damage to attackers, or that it can't be used early enough (due to the reverted cost of the MsC and the newer cost of Purify). Maybe the DPS should be buffed somewhat and the energy cost should go back to 75.
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate.
Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core.
Edit: Purify dps is 16 btw
The cost is 100/100 for the mothership core? If it's more costly than a stalker, and you're getting it for defensive purposes, how does it help if you're not going to end up with more dps in any early attacks? As for recall, I just hope the people losing/complaining about its offensive abilities weren't toss players. I agree in that I don't want it to be an offensive weapon, but to have this recall change is disheartening. Always needing to have your army under a "super unit" is so lame.
On September 29 2012 14:09 ZeromuS wrote: Ok, so food for thought:
You can get a mothership core to 1v1 a queen, the core wins. And by the time it gets to a zerg base it should have enough energy for a recall.
Awesome pressure forcing 2 queens at main hatch? Or stupid oversight by blizzard?
Neither. Just a case of theorycrafting being an inaccurate representation of play. Queens are faster than cores. They win when microed even just a little. And Zerg make more than one queen early vs Protoss anyway.
Oh my god! Please, I beg , that the enemy units in the radius of the recall get brought back! I just got stoned and imagined this! The cinematics and reality of this just seem so right. Imagine, sneak in banes trying to chase down some sentries, everything is frozen, and the observer jumps back to base! Bam, a battle at the recall zone in the home base! O man. Every thing aside, there's this reality that seems to elude games for balance purposes. The matter of the fact is that what ever's in that radius would be warped back. Oh man, that would be the best thing ever if they did that
On September 29 2012 15:08 VegetarianPeaceLove wrote: Oh my god! Please, I beg , that the enemy units in the radius of the recall get brought back! I just got stoned and imagined this! The cinematics and reality of this just seem so right. Imagine, sneak in banes trying to chase down some sentries, everything is frozen, and the observer jumps back to base! Bam, a battle at the recall zone in the home base! O man. Every thing aside, there's this reality that seems to elude games for balance purposes. The matter of the fact is that what ever's in that radius would be warped back. Oh man, that would be the best thing ever if they did that
On September 29 2012 15:08 VegetarianPeaceLove wrote: Oh my god! Please, I beg , that the enemy units in the radius of the recall get brought back! I just got stoned and imagined this! The cinematics and reality of this just seem so right. Imagine, sneak in banes trying to chase down some sentries, everything is frozen, and the observer jumps back to base! Bam, a battle at the recall zone in the home base! O man. Every thing aside, there's this reality that seems to elude games for balance purposes. The matter of the fact is that what ever's in that radius would be warped back. Oh man, that would be the best thing ever if they did that
Hahaha. Amazing.
heck yea i could not wait to see a msc recall all your drone/scv/probe
HAHAHA, That's why debate is needed. No workers I guess. MAKE it a secific rules? " Then woulnd't that just be going against reality?" Lol, fuck you. It has to even out, so you do balance and reality , balance and reality and son. It's the perfect mix. I could just see some stalker blinking in to a pack of brroods and calling them all to hell>< I guess that wouldnt work. Fuck me lo. But the science fiction esq stle, if you will of defending a warp in of enemy units at the portal zone would be so fucken cool
Widow mine change is really easy. I dont know why its taking so long.
Same cost. you buy 2 widow mines for 1 supply. Same damage, and it doesnt atack air. Easy spamm mines, no trouble killing dropships or super mega cost efective mutaballs.
Or in other case, it doesnt atack air, freee supply, free cost, add a new unit called vulture for 75minerals and attach 3 mines in there.
The mothership core is seriously annoying now. Played 1 game and really don't want to play against it again. Its now a gimmicky unit to aid in early all ins to make them not all in any more. Its not expensive, builds fast, it does damage, it saves expensive units and it is nice for defense (which I actually support) the problem is there is no downside. The entire problem I have with it now is that it encourages the Protoss to go gate first get up the mothership core and go do damage because the Zerg has nothing that can deal with it well.
By the time it gets across the map to my base it already pretty much has a recall and you should only have 2 queens. You can kill the mothership core if it was alone but accompany it was Zealots and/or stalkers and you can either kill the Zerg or force them into a really really bad positon economically while the Protoss can recall back if things get too hot. And then in the meantime the Zerg has a crippled economy and the Protoss can expand behind it because they still have units and they now have the purify cannon to help with the defense.
All in all its an idiotic change and it will be changed to something different next week when they realise it.
I really like these changes. Seems like they've taken in some of the criticism and actually made some of the suggestions work. Now, I do agree that terran needs something else in the game and that the widow mines aren't really filling the slot. Maybe a hellion that drops mines, or perhaps like a raven mine?
I think they'll find a way to make the game good anyways ^^
On September 29 2012 15:36 KevoVargas wrote: Widow mine change is really easy. I dont know why its taking so long.
Same cost. you buy 2 widow mines for 1 supply. Same damage, and it doesnt atack air. Easy spamm mines, no trouble killing dropships or super mega cost efective mutaballs.
Or in other case, it doesnt atack air, freee supply, free cost, add a new unit called vulture for 75minerals and attach 3 mines in there.
I think I like this idea!
question is, do you build one (fact w/ tech lab) and get 2?
so for the reactor fact if you build 2 you get 4?
Or can it only be made out of a fact with a reactor.
I don't think it's the flying, it's the damage from the flying unit. With the speed and an auto-attack they've stopped it being a super powerful all-in unit and made it a super early air harass unit. That has it's own issues as shown from all the void ray nerfs that occured in WoL because they come out early-ish.
I think the new auto-attack is silly. Take out the attack. It doesn't seem to fit the design of the unit.
Time to build more Queens in ZvP for air defense/transfuse. Seems legit. As I've said before, I'm very happy with the direction.
HOTS is shaping up to be a Significantly different play experience than WoL. This is good, as their promise for SC2, is a trilogy experience, not expansion.
Actually the zerg has 2 queen pop out to defend but MC was definitely will put out some damage on the first queen. I was surprised with it's 1.8 movement speed. It has pretty decent movement speed.
All in all though, this is pretty bad. MC was supposed to be a defensive unit but it it turned out it can be a light pressure-esque unit in the early game lol.
MC has got a lot of utility now actually.
It can scout,clear watch towers as seen in the video,etc.
You could go pool first (like everybody does in ZvP) and have 2 queens near each other at that timing. The queen killing is super easy to adjust to with your build order.
Also, having a light pressure unit in early game is a godsend for P. A low tech option to put a little early pressure without committing a ton is exactly what I wanted for P in HOTS.
At this point, removing the Mothership Core and the Mothership and replacing them with Purifier and Recall on your Nexus seems like a much better design than what they have right now, at least having to choose between Chrono Boost and Purifier and Recall lets Protoss decide between economy, defense and harassment without the awkwardness of the Mothership Core being a pseudo building attachment.
Maybe change the Mothership Core into a Nexus upgrade like the Orbital Command and reboot its energy to 50 with Purifier at a 50 energy cost?
well, first of all it's questionable if the msc should really have an attack. in my opinion, it doesn't need to do so. overall, it's a pretty cool unit, but it should be limited to defensive use in the earliest stages of the game. but we'll see, that video isn't very good, because (as others have also stated) the queen isn't microed at all.
I don't like the new recall, neither do I like the autoattack on the core. I feel like, if it can constantly attack, it should require a stargate - both out of balance and design reasons. And for the recall... it was fun before, now it's like this one unit that you want to focus fast, then he can't recall - so the moment you have enough anti air, he can't use recall for harass anymore. I mean, how do you use recall against a Terran now? You don't! Marines will kill the core, long before you can use it properly.
On September 29 2012 16:10 kcdc wrote: You could go pool first (like everybody does in ZvP) and have 2 queens near each other at that timing. The queen killing is super easy to adjust to with your build order.
Also, having a light pressure unit in early game is a godsend for P. A low tech option to put a little early pressure without committing a ton is exactly what I wanted for P in HOTS.
What this guy said solves anything about early MsC attacks, instead of injecting the natural, poop a tumour and the 2nd queen has free mobility between the Nat and Main to fend off the attack.
I agree it is too fast for my liking but whining over Beta balance isn't the way forward..
I'd imagine that making you micro your core so that you can still recall is kind of the point. Like focussing dropships from terran drops - do you divert your DPS from the attacking units or not?
Also, energise seems to be a useful ability to bring with your army.
Actually the zerg has 2 queen pop out to defend but MC was definitely will put out some damage on the first queen. I was surprised with it's 1.8 movement speed. It has pretty decent movement speed.
All in all though, this is pretty bad. MC was supposed to be a defensive unit but it it turned out it can be a light pressure-esque unit in the early game lol.
MC has got a lot of utility now actually.
It can scout,clear watch towers as seen in the video,etc.
I am expecting changes to the MC again.
I'm pretty ok with it. Protoss really did need a way to put on early game pressure without going completely all in, so I'm glad the Mothership Core can fill that role.
Also, even if you do kill a Queen, the Protoss is stuck on one base. They didn't FEE, they rushed for a Core. So, I don't really see that being a problem, it puts Protoss's macro way behind in exchange for 1 queen and some scouting. If the queen really is guaranteed to die that's a problem, but making sure you get 2 queens ASAP and it looks like it will be a pretty close defense from Zerg.
Edit: didn't read the changes closely enough. Auto-attack on the Core is lame, I thought it was a mini-purify that was castable. So yeah, one step in the right direction, one in the wrong.
I just realised from reading this thread that people will never be happy with the Mothership Core, hating on the state of the mothership core has become the new hating Justin Bieber.
1. I believe the community voiced that they wanted more flexibility in protoss units. We got this, it's either a light-harass unit, who can't really do much damage (you can micro away your drones\scv and bring AA units). Or, it's a decent, but not too strong base defender. Also, if the light harass forces a tumor out of zerg, or an extra marine before CC, that's freakin good. Zerg macro mechanics have often been said to be too strong, or too expansive, I believe Genius said this in a interview. And for terrans, mules. (enough said) The margin of error for holding an all-in after expand was in WoL much lower for Protoss compared to Terran, this balances out the advantages given by the bunker\repair, without being too strong (Old purify sort of snapped the neck of a 3rax stim pretty easily.)
2. For people saying that it is too expensive, it's not. If you use energize, you can effectively skip a sentry or two, which makes up for the gas cost. It's not about having the most cost effective unit, it's about having choices and flexibility. Mothership allows for both offensive and defensive plays.
Also, Auto-attack is fine, takes 5-6 shots to kill a drone, and you can micro the drone away fairly quickly. MsC is very good for scouting expansions, which is good for protoss. Recall is good too. I like how it could punish a greedy terran by avoiding the bunkers, but it is too strong. Warp prism elevators with MsC support should make the strategy slightly more efficient than in WoL. MsC also makes zealot harass stronger. In WoL zealot harass was really easy to shut down, and usually in a cost-effective way as Zerglings are generally useful throughout the mid-game, while zealots lose their efficiency if the zerg goes roaches.
Interesting. I don't think the auto-attack will be used that much for base harass, since 2 queens can take it easily. Probably only useful against early Zerglings.
I don't think it's the flying, it's the damage from the flying unit. With the speed and an auto-attack they've stopped it being a super powerful all-in unit and made it a super early air harass unit. That has it's own issues as shown from all the void ray nerfs that occured in WoL because they come out early-ish.
I think the new auto-attack is silly. Take out the attack. It doesn't seem to fit the design of the unit.
It is the flying aspect of the unit combined with the fact that it has an attack (which it should, since the mothership has an attack). Personally I think it is a terrible idea to give such an early flying AND casting unit the super powerful spells it has. You cant reduce the effect of recall (well you could reduce the affected radius, but in the very beginning there are only very few units to recall, so it doesnt balance the spell) or make it less powerful, so the only option is removing it. The whole "early flying unit vs Zerg" aspect is a big problem, because it is an untouchable base defender and anything that is invulnerable is very very bad.
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The whole HotS unit design comes across at being worthy of a DLC download, but not an expansion and certainly not a full price expansion. It is all pretty screwed up and mostly terrible in its design.
like all the changes on the MC except the recall thing. MC should stay at home to defend or recall FROM the home base. so it allows small groups of P units to freely move on the map and be saved by recall if needed. now it is still good offensively but worse at recalling since MC is slower than zealots/stalker/sentry. why not just make it recall from the home base and let it be superslow so it cant be used offensively?! think they will change that again.
On September 29 2012 15:41 FlukyS wrote: The mothership core is seriously annoying now. Played 1 game and really don't want to play against it again. Its now a gimmicky unit to aid in early all ins to make them not all in any more. Its not expensive, builds fast, it does damage, it saves expensive units and it is nice for defense (which I actually support) the problem is there is no downside. The entire problem I have with it now is that it encourages the Protoss to go gate first get up the mothership core and go do damage because the Zerg has nothing that can deal with it well.
By the time it gets across the map to my base it already pretty much has a recall and you should only have 2 queens. You can kill the mothership core if it was alone but accompany it was Zealots and/or stalkers and you can either kill the Zerg or force them into a really really bad positon economically while the Protoss can recall back if things get too hot. And then in the meantime the Zerg has a crippled economy and the Protoss can expand behind it because they still have units and they now have the purify cannon to help with the defense.
All in all its an idiotic change and it will be changed to something different next week when they realise it.
I don't have access to the beta, so can you explain to me how this is different to the previous patch where Protoss could all-in with the mothership core at home for Recall? Why does this "make all-ins not all-in any more (than it previous did)"?
On September 29 2012 18:04 Decendos wrote: like all the changes on the MC except the recall thing. MC should stay at home to defend or recall FROM the home base. so it allows small groups of P units to freely move on the map and be saved by recall if needed. now it is still good offensively but worse at recalling since MC is slower than zealots/stalker/sentry. why not just make it recall from the home base and let it be superslow so it cant be used offensively?! think they will change that again.
It seems like mid to late game recalls will be rarity, but early to mid should still be ok. Protoss units can already escape from Terran own their own, whilst Zerg won't have the anti-air to deal with the Mothership Core.
I don't follow HOTS progress so much , but let me make this straight , terran gets only widow mines as the new unit , while other units get small improvements and upgrades ? Seems underwhelming , though what protoss gets in HOTS seem boring as well .
i honestly dont like how they make protoss so dependent on the mothership core because imo it will only further motivate protoss players to have their whole army together(near the mothership core). also i dont understand how this should fix its offensive capabilities. i feel like it is even stronger now.
I like the changes to the mothership core. More of a defensive focus instead of being a superslow energizing Arbiter with no cloak. More flexibility in your decision making is always better for the game.
On September 29 2012 08:23 Belha wrote: I honestly do not understand how the hell Blizz plan their units.
Is like they throw just cool stuff, create a unit, then see what happens (yeah, i know Browder said that this is exactly how they design the units, which is just hilariously dumb).
Mothership core was supposed to be a unique unit with certain defensive/harass roles. Ok
Now they are turning it into a battle support unit. Wtf.
Is like, zero planning at all. Of curse not zero, but meaningless planning for sure.
Actually, it's the only way to design for interactivity -- plan, test, and revise. You can plan all you want in the world but all all good design is the result of an iterative process.
Only stupid people or bad designers think otherwise. If you want you want to see what games look like when you don't test and experiment with ideas, there's a whole world of shitty social games, MMOs and RTS you can play other than Starcraft.
On September 29 2012 08:23 Belha wrote: I honestly do not understand how the hell Blizz plan their units.
Is like they throw just cool stuff, create a unit, then see what happens (yeah, i know Browder said that this is exactly how they design the units, which is just hilariously dumb).
Mothership core was supposed to be a unique unit with certain defensive/harass roles. Ok
Now they are turning it into a battle support unit. Wtf.
Is like, zero planning at all. Of curse not zero, but meaningless planning for sure.
Actually, it's the only way to design for interactivity -- plan, test, and revise. You can plan all you want in the world but all all good design is the result of an iterative process.
Only stupid people or bad designers think otherwise. If you want you want to see what games look like when you don't test and experiment with ideas, there's a whole world of shitty social games, MMOs and RTS you can play other than Starcraft.
Wrong. You can have an idea of what types of units would work well. Then you try and design them and put them into the game. Test them. Receive feedback. Slightly rework them. Receive more feedback --> Balance them etc.
The above process wil give you a much better designed game, as the units fulfill a certain role in the game.
On September 29 2012 18:14 Akinokaze wrote: I don't have access to the beta, so can you explain to me how this is different to the previous patch where Protoss could all-in with the mothership core at home for Recall? Why does this "make all-ins not all-in any more (than it previous did)"?
The changes in this patch made the mothership core faster and added a base attack that has low ish damage but its good enough to kill a queen 1v1. It can get across the map to the opponents base fast ish that it can hit with a 4 gate and warp gate. Recall has been changed so that the mothership core and units close to it get teleported back to a nexus rather than the old way where you recall to the mothership core.
All these changes make it so that the mothership core is an offensive unit with some defensive abilities. How it makes it more all in is because now its not only free dps for the all in but if you try punish it by attacking their base while they are away they can recall back, if you hold the push rather than get punished by losing all their units they can recall back too. Before Protoss players used to forge fe in HotS but now they don't even have to do that because they have a pretty much free cannon which does fuck tons of damage.
The old one was fine ish if you added the new attach to the nexus cannon thing which I find perfectly fine. The issue is the base attack, move speed, build time and the cost. If lets say the base speed is half of what it is now or the base attack was removed but they left the cannon or the build time was tripled or the cost was doubled I would be entirely fine with it. Its just the combo of everything that makes it stupid.
The MC is just such a crappy design. Just attach it to the nexus really and tweak the recall spell a bit, not make this silly scouting unit that sort of forces your army to move at a slower speed to utilize the recall.. The design for HoTs is still terrible on the terran and protoss side, only zerg updates are looking pretty cool.
I don't get really why they don\t have the MC they wanted first. Attached to a nexus that can be shifted with an ability from one nexus to another. Then just give it a recall function but make it limited so it won't allow free all-ins without risk. For example just make the recall a limited number of units! Cap it to 6 or 8 units so it's ideal for allowing small pushes and harassment but can't let you freely return from an all-in attack, that way you actually encourage small attacks and prevent deathballs... The route for protoss now with the defensive aoe on the oracle they are only enforcing deadball syndrome even more...
Why the widowmine isn't already 1 supply but tweaked for that puzzles me as well. Having a static/defensive unit take up 2 supply is just stupid as it reduces the amount of active units on the map.
Only succesful designs to me so far are locust swarm (barely) and the viper (coolest new unit). Widow mine has good potential but rest is just boring or doesn't improve the gameplay at all
I'm just worried that this mothership core makes the protoss more hesitant to split up its army, ie. pro death ball syndrome... Even if the changes themselves make sense...
glad that they changed recall, opposed to some reactions here. How many 'snipe 3rds and recall' were we going to see otherwise? Now, its still possible, but the opponent has more time, since the MSC will take its time getting there. MSC can still be used lategame, where you have it around the middle of the map and recall out of sticky situations, but earlymidgame its still mainly as defence.
I like the changes.
EDIT ; after seeing the MSC core in action... Its still pretty viable to do the 3rd snipe. The speed is higher than I expected. I could only check this via a stream just now, sorry
not make this silly scouting unit that sort of forces your army to move at a slower speed to utilize the recall.. The design for HoTs is still terrible on the terran and protoss side, only zerg updates are looking pretty cool.
You don't need to move your army at slower speed. Come to enemy, atack a bit, and while you're atacking enemy, M-Core coming closer and you can use recall.
On September 29 2012 20:14 Markwerf wrote: Why the widowmine isn't already 1 supply but tweaked for that puzzles me as well. Having a static/defensive unit take up 2 supply is just stupid as it reduces the amount of active units on the map.
I don't think maxed out 200/200 on widow mines is what they want thats why they still have it at 2 supply. I still think they are very effective even at 2 supply its just they need to figure them out. What I find a bit awkward about the widow mine is the activation thing because you deactivate mines and put them under every expo to block or do it like Zergs with baneling landmines in mineral lines and you see how abusable it is. (im not complaining that they can put them in mineral lines im more complaining about the fact that they can wait for more workers to come and then let it off its just 1 more thing that you have to worry about when taking a new base)
I think the widow mine will be perfect if they removed the activate/deactivate thing and made them only allowed to borrow once and then the supply is dropped. Id be fine with that it would mean people can't bank up 25 widow mines they would instead use them defensively or offensively only. And also it should have a 1 second time to explode to allow for micro to pick off badly placed clumps of mines for players who are careful it would save the world from slow widow mine pushes across the map.
The Mothership basically now has Scroll of Town Portal?
I really don't understand why we can't just go back to the original model of the Mothership Core, one that was attached to the Nexus and couldn't move.
Is movement REALLY that important if it's causing all of these other weird design issues? I don't get it.
seriously every time they change something, i hope it stays now like it is. A mobile mothership with a different recall is now like a wc3 hero with townsportal, i kinda like it but cant it be a bit faster really?? Every standard unit is 2,25 speed why 1,8??
If some one wants to switch to sc2 from wc3 at last i can really recommend choosing protoss, it was even before the most like wc3 race with high hp units, many spells summon like unit production but this pretty much resembles now what was missing. It even transforms in late game into a real MB like level 6 Ultra Spell.
On September 29 2012 20:33 nachtkap wrote: no BW carrier mechanic =(
They're putting their attention first to the newly introduced units. I think the change to the mothership core illustrates this really well. The next thing that will undergo quite a significent change is the widow mine. I think they'll implement it as something a burrowed shredder drops creating a minefield.
after they feel the HotS units are at a good place design wise they'll take a look to older units
I don't like the new recall at all. Protoss is lacking in mobility, that's why you can't move out early game - units are slow as **** and too expensive to just walk out on the map with. Zealots are not fast and the idea of a mothership core with 75% of its speed following your army so you can recall doesn't exactly provide any mobility at all. Basically you now have an even slower army that you HAVE to keep together because you can't a) leave your army exposed or b) leave your core exposed.
I really don't like this. The rest seems reasonable, purify is really good now.
On September 29 2012 08:08 avilo wrote: That's it for Terran? -_- good change though, 4 sec to burrow seemed like forever. Supply cost is still too expensive imo.
I think its in an awkward window where 1 supply widow mines would be retarded and extremely overpowered, but 2 is a liittle too much, but we are stuck with whole integars. Cant really go around setting units to 1.5 supply, and i dont think blizzard wants to nerf it, either, its difficult to rebalance construction time and other factors
At this point we should be allow to make more than one MSC. Terran can have multiple Orbital, Zerg can have multiple Queen, Protoss is limit to one MSC. Do you think Protoss will be OP if they can make multiple MSC? (the one in this patch)
On September 29 2012 20:58 800800 wrote: At this point we should be allow to make more than one MSC. Terran can have multiple Orbital, Zerg can have multiple Queen, Protoss is limit to one MSC. Do you think Protoss will be OP if they can make multiple MSC? (the one in this patch)
Hahah wtf dude? How can you even compare Queens and Orbital Commands with the Mothership Core?
I don't understand why is Entomb still in the game?! The most stupid ability ever. And they are trying to balance its numbers so it probably means they want to keep it?!
Looks like I will be pirating Hots just to play the campaign
On September 29 2012 20:58 800800 wrote: At this point we should be allow to make more than one MSC. Terran can have multiple Orbital, Zerg can have multiple Queen, Protoss is limit to one MSC. Do you think Protoss will be OP if they can make multiple MSC? (the one in this patch)
Hahah wtf dude? How can you even compare Queens and Orbital Commands with the Mothership Core?
They are those unit in the game that provide protection/ help econ. They may not do the EXACT same thing, but the purpose of them in the game are the same. I guess ChronoBoost from Nexus would be more similar to Queen and Orbital, but it never struck me, maybe I should build an extra Nexus for chrono. I mean that would be just plain stupid. But when I play Terran making an Orbital in my base is viable and isn't so bad. As for why I compare it to MSC, it is because that was what it was originally design to do; help out in base.
I like the changes. Blink Stalkers + Recall seemed way too strong on the HotS streams. Now we have an even cooler unit in the MSC and recall is nerfed but still very doable. Exactly what we need. Awesome. Locusts seem so strong with range 3...
With the Mothership core I habe that feeling that it was supposed to be really good and change the way Protoss currently plays but at release they will have changed it so much no1 really cares about them.
They should rename one version of Recall, right now we have two different spells with the same name, that should't stay this way. Name to Oracle one teleport or something, because you travel to a location, not get things from there.
So far I'm only excited for the new zerg stuff, even if I'm not really sure how much use it will end up getting. Protoss and terran additions seem still very underwhelming according to what I've seen so far. Oracle pretty much arrives, insta-blocks some minerals and flies away, the workers kill it and go back to work. not too thrilling to watch. Mothershipcore seems gimmicky and I'm not into the concept of having another protoss "hero unit", I'd rather see some changes to the existing stuff or a real harassing unit for example. And terran.. They got a mine. It just still feels a bit meh and I hope they don't restrict themselves to just tune the stuff that they put in right now, which I'm really afraid it will end up with though...
So many changes... I really have no idea were we are heading :/ Don't know what to think of HotS, it's current state and direction doesn't really appeal to me, I honestly wish it would, but the joy keeps hiding somewhere under a rock, I guess
On September 29 2012 22:28 Creager wrote: So many changes... I really have no idea were we are heading :/ Don't know what to think of HotS, it's current state and direction doesn't really appeal to me, I honestly wish it would, but the joy keeps hiding somewhere under a rock, I guess
I'm still not sure what the Widow mine does in later stages of the game but its pretty neat harrassment tool and early defense . Can be pretty strong combined with Reapers in TvZ and even TvT very only on at least from my experience so far.
On September 29 2012 21:18 -Archangel- wrote: I don't understand why is Entomb still in the game?! The most stupid ability ever. And they are trying to balance its numbers so it probably means they want to keep it?!
Looks like I will be pirating Hots just to play the campaign
Really, Entomb is *that* bad that you'll endorse piracy? Someone with 2800 posts here and you think that entomb is that big of an issue?
In terms of unit design this expansion is really really poor specially terran...we've been waiting for so much long to get BW units with broken mechanics? :/
The mothership core is now stupidly OP early on. The Autoattack is pretty strong . Pretty hard to get enough Anti-Air out early on for the MSC alone not to mention combined with 3 or 4 Gates. The offensive potential of the core was a bad idea.
We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations.
Could Phase shift protect against EMP also? Ghosts were looking scary for a while, Taeja still makes me scared of ghosts. But no one really uses them effectively.
We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations.
Could Phase shift protect against EMP also? Ghosts were looking scary for a while, Taeja still makes me scared of ghosts. But no one really uses them effectively.
why would you be scared of him your never gonna play him
On September 29 2012 21:49 Jakkerr wrote: With the Mothership core I habe that feeling that it was supposed to be really good and change the way Protoss currently plays but at release they will have changed it so much no1 really cares about them.
So in other words they've been weighed, and measured...and found wanting??
ugh entomb and oracle look so gay now... esp with the higher health the oracle can get away with charging in entombing your minerals and tanking the queen / spore
We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations.
Could Phase shift protect against EMP also? Ghosts were looking scary for a while, Taeja still makes me scared of ghosts. But no one really uses them effectively.
why would you be scared of him your never gonna play him
a player who sees his game will most likely duplicate it. No one on the ladder now uses ghosts because they are either not skilled enough or have no idea how to use them effectively. Why do you write such a stupid comment in response to my post? Do you have anything to add to the HoTs conversation? then stfu dude.
I really hate that i have floating orb at the top of my army so i doesnt see shit and cant micro properly unless i float MC away. It just feels very akward to me. Now i need to deathball shit out of enemies...
And yes, i know there were a science vessel in bw.
Just bring back previous design, it was good just needed some nerf (maybe recalled unit limit, or more energy needed to use recall, cooldown, dunno).
The mothership core is now as fast as: - Overseer (unupgraded) - Overlord (upgraded) - Battlecruiser - Thor - Carrier - High Templar - Locust (offcreep)
Mutalisks are now faster than the Oracle.
- MS Core has the same range as Marines - 2 Marines (no upgrades) kill the shield of the Core and do a tiny bit of damage versus the Core - 3 Marines (no no upgrades) bring the Core down to approx 54 hp - 4 Marines (no no upgrades) kill the Core with 1 full Marine and one with 21hp. - Queens can outrange the Core by 2 - Core can kill 1 unmicroed Queen, with enough creep space it might be possible to kill the Core with only 1 queen (but the Core can fly away and recharge its shields and come again)
- Attached MS Core dies with Nexus - 3 Mutalisks are required to kill the attached Core (if you attack it immediatly, if you fly around and give the Core 2 unnecessary shots, the Mutalisks will die) - Purify (weapon of attached Core) can't be upgraded. It stays at 20. - Vipers cannot abduct attached Cores - Cores can make a moving shot (hit stop hotkey, then right click to move) - HTs can feedback the Core while possibly receiving 1 hit - The attached Core does not regenerate energy. - Ghosts can EMP Core and Nexus (but they need to target more towards the middle of the Nexus) - Units will acquire the Core when they are attacked by it instead of attacking the workers (as usual; this isn't something special).
On September 29 2012 22:28 Creager wrote: So many changes... I really have no idea were we are heading :/ Don't know what to think of HotS, it's current state and direction doesn't really appeal to me, I honestly wish it would, but the joy keeps hiding somewhere under a rock, I guess
A destructible rock?
No, this is what 'collapsible rock towers' are for:
Crushing the really inspired design elements before implementation, and burying previously announced features while retroactively labeling them 'bugs'. You need somewhere to put all that shit.
On September 30 2012 00:09 Ahli wrote: Some stuff I tested in the unit test map in HotS:
The mothership core is now as fast as: - Overseer (unupgraded) - Overlord (upgraded) - Battlecruiser - Thor - Carrier - High Templar - Locust (offcreep)
Mutalisks are now faster than the Oracle.
- MS Core has the same range as Marines - 2 Marines (no upgrades) kill the shield of the Core and do a tiny bit of damage versus the Core - 3 Marines (no no upgrades) bring the Core down to approx 54 hp - 4 Marines (no no upgrades) kill the Core with 1 full Marine and one with 21hp. - Queens can outrange the Core by 2 - Core can kill 1 unmicroed Queen, with enough creep space it might be possible to kill the Core with only 1 queen (but the Core can fly away and recharge its shields and come again)
- Attached MS Core dies with Nexus - 3 Mutalisks are required to kill the attached Core (if you attack it immediatly, if you fly around and give the Core 2 unnecessary shots, the Mutalisks will die) - Purify (weapon of attached Core) can't be upgraded. It stays at 20. - Vipers cannot abduct attached Cores - Cores can make a moving shot (hit stop hotkey, then right click to move) - HTs can feedback the Core while possibly receiving 1 hit - The attached Core does not regenerate energy. - Ghosts can EMP Core and Nexus (but they need to target more towards the middle of the Nexus) - Units will acquire the Core when they are attacked by it instead of attacking the workers (as usual; this isn't something special).
got to say the MCore is a damn good offensive unit right now. It is basically free highground vision + has a few full energy sentries included. Funny way for a unit that was supposed to prevent basetrades. It is not that hard to fix though, they just have to give it a vision range of 2. On the other hand its real fun to dart in an snipe a worker and dart out.
If they really intend to keep it that way i think they will have to up the techlevel a bit. But i would have preferred the MCore as a defense unit and right now it is far from useful defensive unless you fight ground only units.
To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
I'm terran, and i tried this afternoon the change on Window mine and... it's totally imba. With gaz first into factory / reactor, 4 mines in B1, 2 in B2, I burrowed mines which are low hp and nothing can stop them until minerals. It's freewin against Zerg & too powerful against Protoss.
On September 30 2012 00:58 bLo0d wrote: To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
Well you can't say: Mech isn't an option vs Toss, but then say: Toss has now the Stargate options! Opening Stargate will not let you survive, if stim and the first medivacs are ready.
Basically right now, nothing changes in TvP at all. I wouldn't be suprised if toss rather skip the MSC for faster Robotics.
Anyway: They said the beta is a long shot from being done, so we have to wait and see...
On September 30 2012 00:58 bLo0d wrote: To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
Well you can't say: Mech isn't an option vs Toss, but then say: Toss has now the Stargate options! Opening Stargate will not let you survive, if stim and the first medivacs are ready.
Basically right now, nothing changes in TvP at all. I wouldn't be suprised if toss rather skip the MSC for faster Robotics.
Anyway: They said the beta is a long shot from being done, so we have to wait and see...
Well you can 4 Gate MSC against most Expand Builds Terran has which is very very hard to hold.
On September 30 2012 00:58 bLo0d wrote: To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
Well you can't say: Mech isn't an option vs Toss, but then say: Toss has now the Stargate options! Opening Stargate will not let you survive, if stim and the first medivacs are ready.
Basically right now, nothing changes in TvP at all. I wouldn't be suprised if toss rather skip the MSC for faster Robotics.
Anyway: They said the beta is a long shot from being done, so we have to wait and see...
Haha, no you're right, I was thinking of that sort of contradiction before I posted. I only decided to post that because Mech is not something you can transition from. Once you open mech, you're gonna just go mech. And what I meant by stargate options was not necessarily only opening oracles, for example. I was also referring to the possible viability of Tempests towards late game. Also, Stargate is not a playstyle per se. If you open Stargate, you can, and most likely will and have to transition to something else. But it just exists as another option in the early game/possibly later in game. Mech, though, is an entire game playstyle, not just an opening. But yeah, even ignoring mech and stargate options completely, the MS Core just by itself would change TvP by a lot I believe.
Well one really interesting thing about the new mothership core is that it fulfills the role of the early game void ray against zerg.
Before, in order to safely clear watch towers and creep tumors, you needed to get a Stargate and a Void Ray. That costed 400/300! Now protosses can just make a mothership core to do all that for only 100/100. Huge improvement and gives much more flexibility to protoss in the early game.
Now they just need to take out or change the Void Ray, which due to this patch, has lost its last remaining role in SC2.
On September 30 2012 00:58 bLo0d wrote: To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
Well you can't say: Mech isn't an option vs Toss, but then say: Toss has now the Stargate options! Opening Stargate will not let you survive, if stim and the first medivacs are ready.
Basically right now, nothing changes in TvP at all. I wouldn't be suprised if toss rather skip the MSC for faster Robotics.
Anyway: They said the beta is a long shot from being done, so we have to wait and see...
Well you can 4 Gate MSC against most Expand Builds Terran has which is very very hard to hold.
You can 3 rax marine/scv all-in against most Expand Builds Protoss has which is very very hard to hold. What's your point?
Wow! Watch WhiteRa using the new mothership core! He's not even close to using it optimally yet, but you can see how it will completely change the openings available to protoss. Vs Zerg, you can go gateway first, get the mothership core, go pressure with your first few units and the core, putting up your expo behind it.
Then you can theoretically retreat back and use your core to energize a sentry to hold off an all-in, or if you nexus is finished you can use purify.
Then you have a quick timing attack where you bring your core along and use it to gain highground vision for blink, recalling if needed. Allows for protoss to be a lot more active in the early game, which makes the matchup more dynamic.
On September 30 2012 01:50 Fig wrote: Wow! Watch WhiteRa using the new mothership core! He's not even close to using it optimally yet, but you can see how it will completely change the openings available to protoss. Vs Zerg, you can go gateway first, get the mothership core, go pressure with your first few units and the core, putting up your expo behind it.
Then you can theoretically retreat back and use your core to energize a sentry to hold off an all-in, or if you nexus is finished you can use purify.
Then you have a quick timing attack where you bring your core along and use it to gain highground vision for blink, recalling if needed. Allows for protoss to be a lot more active in the early game, which makes the matchup more dynamic.
I think the MSC high ground warp in with early gateway pressure is too powerful. It completely negates CC first and maybe even rax expand. There's basically no reason to get an early bunker anymore other than to defend against the first zealot/stalker. Also if you don't use the core offensively you should be safe from any Terran early pressure. I'm experimenting with a Reaper expand to avoid the 4gate MSC, but I don't feel the Reaper enables enough threat to contain the early game Protoss.
Wow! So finally protoss is as hard and onesided to play as before. Thank you blizzard for nerving recall so bad, there will no longer be a good use for it exept for waiting until real mothership. Boring stuff :-(
Exciting changes! Good to see Blizzard exploring how to make each new unit the best it can be before launch. A faster mothership core is much better for entertainment value too.
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate.
Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core.
Edit: Purify dps is 16 btw
The cost is 100/100 for the mothership core? If it's more costly than a stalker, and you're getting it for defensive purposes, how does it help if you're not going to end up with more dps in any early attacks? As for recall, I just hope the people losing/complaining about its offensive abilities weren't toss players. I agree in that I don't want it to be an offensive weapon, but to have this recall change is disheartening. Always needing to have your army under a "super unit" is so lame.
I agree that the dmg potential, especially with a 4gate against zerg is way higher now. Spine crawlers aren't gonna stopit. It has a 250total hitpoints(including it's shield) so it has a decent surviveability. In early game pressure, since, it is flying, it is valuable against lings/roaches/ marauders, and zealots. The abilities also justify the cost. It'll stop zealots from doing to much dmg to your mineral line when you use purify. energize can help you force field ramps and wall ins. I do agree that the Mcore being a standard part of your army seems a little silly.
I think that maybe, by making it 50-50 to produce and then 50-50 to give it a speed upgrade could increase the early game defensive capabilities while giving it more mid game offensive abilities. This would likely time out so that you'll have your 1.875 speed Mcore about the 7:30minute mark or later, however, you'll have the mcore itself out around the current time. This upgrade could go onto the cyber core to ensure it wont be out untill warp gate is finished. That may reduce the early game harrass options.
On September 29 2012 16:58 Big J wrote: I don't like the new recall, neither do I like the autoattack on the core. I feel like, if it can constantly attack, it should require a stargate - both out of balance and design reasons. And for the recall... it was fun before, now it's like this one unit that you want to focus fast, then he can't recall - so the moment you have enough anti air, he can't use recall for harass anymore. I mean, how do you use recall against a Terran now? You don't! Marines will kill the core, long before you can use it properly.
Using recall against terran now is kinda like using your gaurdian shields. You need to keep the MCore towards the back of your army. In a late game scenario, you can either A: use a mothership recall, or B: Keep the core out of the engagement and fall back a small distance to your mcore to recall. You can't bring it into your army once vikings are out, although it does make for a nice meat shield if your opponent targets it down instead of your colossus. Overall, it has more offensive utility now against terran than it did before. Terran used to push my front and target it down so fast because i couldn't move it and the attack rate of purify didn't kill the marines fast enough. Now you can at least keep alive as long as you have other units with it. For harrassment, it's more of a support unit now, making the zealot drops way strong since you can recall your zealots(and warp prism if you used it to warp in/drop) while adding some dmg to the fight. It's now a little more risky since you risk the Mcore. It was a little imba when you could do a doom drop with 2-3 warp prisms and simply recall it without risking the core at all. You can still force your opponent to defend since you can still use recall with it.
I don't think it's the flying, it's the damage from the flying unit. With the speed and an auto-attack they've stopped it being a super powerful all-in unit and made it a super early air harass unit. That has it's own issues as shown from all the void ray nerfs that occured in WoL because they come out early-ish.
I think the new auto-attack is silly. Take out the attack. It doesn't seem to fit the design of the unit.
It is the flying aspect of the unit combined with the fact that it has an attack (which it should, since the mothership has an attack). Personally I think it is a terrible idea to give such an early flying AND casting unit the super powerful spells it has. You cant reduce the effect of recall (well you could reduce the affected radius, but in the very beginning there are only very few units to recall, so it doesnt balance the spell) or make it less powerful, so the only option is removing it. The whole "early flying unit vs Zerg" aspect is a big problem, because it is an untouchable base defender and anything that is invulnerable is very very bad.
----
The whole HotS unit design comes across at being worthy of a DLC download, but not an expansion and certainly not a full price expansion. It is all pretty screwed up and mostly terrible in its design.
I agree that the HotS design for multiplayer is a little like DLC; it's also an overhaul on the graphics, physics (look at blood splatter and how moving units die, it's pretty sick), campaign, editor, and the Design of Battle.net. It's true that they could simply patch all of these things in, however, given the pace of work and resources available to them, it would be more economic for blizzard to simply release this as an expansion. By no means should it be more than 40$. That price is even pushing it a little. The cool thing is that the earnings from these sales will likely support some awesome content in the future. The most disappointing thing from blizzard in recent times that i can recall is the lack of pvp for Diablo 3, several months after release. Still unhappy about that.
On September 30 2012 00:58 bLo0d wrote: To me, it seems MS Core is a necessary unit in TvZ, at least with all the new options Z has vs P . But, my one concern is TvP. Terran's new units, with mech not looking viable and bio being a solid playstyle vs P, are basically negligible in that match up. The MS Core becomes a sort of buff to any standard P play style vs P, while T is just the same vs P as in WoL. If TvP is balanced in WoL, I can't imagine the addition of the MS Core to the match up, as well as possible viability of the new Stargate units vs the limited viability mech units of Terran keeping the match up balanced.
Basically Protoss has new Stargate options vs Terran, and the bonus of a MS Core, while Terran would either be forced to go mech to even utilize it's new units, or just play the same style vs the improved Protoss.
Also, the MS Core, unlike the new units of other races' doesn't seem like a stylistic choice of any sort. It's just an all around good unit that Protoss would make every game regardless of what style they are going for. There's no reason to not make it asap, which can't be said, at least I think, for any of the other new units for all three races. Just my opinion.
Well you can't say: Mech isn't an option vs Toss, but then say: Toss has now the Stargate options! Opening Stargate will not let you survive, if stim and the first medivacs are ready.
Basically right now, nothing changes in TvP at all. I wouldn't be suprised if toss rather skip the MSC for faster Robotics.
Anyway: They said the beta is a long shot from being done, so we have to wait and see...
After some good ladder play in HotS, I can say that opening stargate is viable. The mobility of stargate is really nice. Defending against the super early pushes isn't hard since phoenix help kill marines really well in small numbers. You can harass terran pretty will with that mobility. I routinely hit the main and expo at the same time. One with an oracle and one with phoenix. It delays terrans timings or the number of units they use. The big problem with the stargate, is that it's still not useful in battles past the early game against terran. Stargate holds the 1-1-1 a little better now, thanks to the oracles ability to detect with a cheep spell. It's definitely a harassment based opener though. The phoenix are fairly useful once your opponent gets some vikings, or if they try to drop against you. I've shut down or deterred a bunch of drops with the phoenix. I wouldn't build more than 5 though. 3 is a pretty good number, and 5 helps alot against medivacs and sometimes the vikings, but overall, don't count on it in the late game. Once you pass the 10-12minute mark, you wont want any phoenix, void rays, tempest or carriers. Oracle is still nice to have. Opening stargate, you can still have a colossus out by the time terran pushes out with stim.
On September 29 2012 14:24 playa wrote: 45 damage sounds a lot more scary to me than 8 or 20. It bought you time. It's just hard to not be leery of what 8 damage is going to do. After playing WoL, it's hard to not cringe when you see changes to something when they finally seemed to have solved the every game being an all-in situation.
Every game WAS an all-in, it's just that the MsC was the perpetrator instead of 4-Gate.
Mcore dps is 9.4 while a stalker has 9.7. It's dps isn't bad, and it has 1 armor and more life than a stalker. It'll still turn the tides of early pressure on a fast expand. The 4gate will always linger, the same way an early pool lingers in zvz and a heavy rax all in within tvt. It's part of the problem with mirror matchups. But it is true, i used the hell out of the MCore offensively. That 45dmg is way better when your attacking. Holding a 4gate was almost too easy before, as you just cut the army with a forcefield, purposely locking most units in to die to your core.
Edit: Purify dps is 16 btw
The cost is 100/100 for the mothership core? If it's more costly than a stalker, and you're getting it for defensive purposes, how does it help if you're not going to end up with more dps in any early attacks? As for recall, I just hope the people losing/complaining about its offensive abilities weren't toss players. I agree in that I don't want it to be an offensive weapon, but to have this recall change is disheartening. Always needing to have your army under a "super unit" is so lame.
I agree that the dmg potential, especially with a 4gate against zerg is way higher now. Spine crawlers aren't gonna stopit. It has a 250total hitpoints(including it's shield) so it has a decent surviveability. In early game pressure, since, it is flying, it is valuable against lings/roaches/ marauders, and zealots. The abilities also justify the cost. It'll stop zealots from doing to much dmg to your mineral line when you use purify. energize can help you force field ramps and wall ins. I do agree that the Mcore being a standard part of your army seems a little silly.
I think that maybe, by making it 50-50 to produce and then 50-50 to give it a speed upgrade could increase the early game defensive capabilities while giving it more mid game offensive abilities. This would likely time out so that you'll have your 1.875 speed Mcore about the 7:30minute mark or later, however, you'll have the mcore itself out around the current time. This upgrade could go onto the cyber core to ensure it wont be out untill warp gate is finished. That may reduce the early game harrass options.
This sounds like a great idea that gives us the best of both worlds. I hope this idea gets to Blizzard.
I hope the next step for the 2 fooded widow mine is an increase in hp or armor. so they can keep their food cost for a little more "freedom". (walk,transform... more mech less baneling)
HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
What do you expect? It isn't a whole new game, it's a revamped game an expansion with new units, new maps, and new features.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
Well WoL meta game is going pretty nicely so I like the idea of not totally revamping the game to WoL beta days with one-base rushes. Also, we've only seen few months of Beta - how much different gameplay can you demand over such a short period of time? I have no doubt the new units will give inspiring and completely different strategies in time.. in time.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
Well WoL meta game is going pretty nicely so I like the idea of not totally revamping the game to WoL beta days with one-base rushes. Also, we've only seen few months of Beta - how much different gameplay can you demand over such a short period of time? I have no doubt the new units will give inspiring and completely different strategies in time.. in time.
Hasn't even been a month (think it started like september 3rd didn't it?)
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
What do you expect? It isn't a whole new game, it's a revamped game an expansion with new units, new maps, and new features.
Of course they added some toys. But not enough to justify $40. Like my post said, "HOTS looks like a DLC pack and not an Expansion".
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
What do you expect? It isn't a whole new game, it's a revamped game an expansion with new units, new maps, and new features.
Of course they added some toys. But not enough to justify $40. Like my post said, "HOTS looks like a DLC pack and not an Expansion".
I don't see what else they could add but yeah.
In my opinion Mothership core seems a tad too fast, I haven't played with it too much though, will see how it goes ^^
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
Wait do you forget that HOTS also add a new campaign with 20+ missions? Saying the expansion is only like a DLC is kinda exaggerate.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
Wait do you forget that HOTS also add a new campaign with 20+ missions? Saying the expansion is only like a DLC is kinda exaggerate.
many dont give a damn about the story and sp. funny is that at this point im more excited for the sp then the mp.
On September 30 2012 02:01 ShiroUtsuRi wrote: Wow! So finally protoss is as hard and onesided to play as before. Thank you blizzard for nerving recall so bad, there will no longer be a good use for it exept for waiting until real mothership. Boring stuff :-(
I was watching.. I think it was Typereal stream. He was using recall all game long, so I think it's safe to say you're wrong. Also, because of the movespeed buff, he had the MS core floating being some zerg's expo and two Oracles flying around, constantly getting topped off with energy from the Core and spamming entomb. Looked super annoying to play against.
Streaming now to show the changes to protoss. I'm playing ladder, and will probably play the other two races from time to time. A lot of interesting changes. Trying to make stargate work against terran, the transition is the toughest to figure out. Any toss strats you want to see, msg me in the chat and i'll try them.
I miss defensive matrix, irradiate, scourge, and reavers. I don't see how implementing these units would hurt balance, I just want more options. Heck even scouts would be welcome, put the stupid entomb on that unit.
On September 30 2012 07:19 Archon96 wrote: The mothership core changes are awful and lead to gimmicky play for what seems to be an evolving gimmicky deathball race.
I'm someone that enjoys playing gimmicky with toss, yet this is way too much for me. Going to change races until blizzard makes their intentions clearer on some units; eg., am I going to have a mothershipcore that specializes in defense or is it going to be a jack of all trades that isn't very good at any one aspect? It feels too much like practicing design strategies than simply practicing to get better with the race. I get that, that's part of beta. It's just with all of the random input they are taking... it's hard to not feel like every week is going to bring something drastic. Would rather just wait for toss to not seem so fluid, and if they had more units that were more solid/less gimmicky, that would be great. I love playing gimmicky with toss, like I said, so not sure how others are thrilled if I'm feeling as it needs more balance.
After playing 10+ games using this new mechanic, I must say I prefer the old recall much more. As far as it being too strong on offense, I have suggested on the b.net forum to possibly give it a leash mechanic, such as only being able to move on pylon power.
On September 30 2012 07:02 Jinmaster wrote: I miss defensive matrix, irradiate, scourge, and reavers. I don't see how implementing these units would hurt balance, I just want more options. Heck even scouts would be welcome, put the stupid entomb on that unit.
More options? Scourges are denying even the old options, they are not making new ones.
We’re also reevaluating the oracle's third spell: Phase Shift. While Phase Shift is a cool option against Fungal Growth, is not very appealing in other situations.
Could Phase shift protect against EMP also? Ghosts were looking scary for a while, Taeja still makes me scared of ghosts. But no one really uses them effectively.
why would you be scared of him your never gonna play him
a player who sees his game will most likely duplicate it. No one on the ladder now uses ghosts because they are either not skilled enough or have no idea how to use them effectively. Why do you write such a stupid comment in response to my post? Do you have anything to add to the HoTs conversation? then stfu dude.
Replicate taeja ? ROFL its impossible even for foreign terran pro gamers the only terran player on par with taejja is probably MVP. And also idk what you mean terran dont you ghost against toss every terran use them when toss goes templar obviously they dont micro has good has taeja.
As everyone is saying, making the MC move from nexus to nexus seemed like the best idea. For recall, they could have decrease the radius, so only small group of units could be recalled (like 10 stalkers max). This expansion is going the wrong way, every patch is more disappoint than the last.
I am so happy with these changes to the mothership core! They actually succeeded in making it a unit rather than a boring defensive structure.
When I first read these patch notes, I, like everyone else here, was skeptical. But anyone who has seen the new mothership core in action (watch the WhiteRa games from today!) will tell you that these few changes have made protoss twice as dynamic and fun to play.
On September 30 2012 09:01 SarcasmMonster wrote: Catz still thinks Swarm hosts needs another damage nerf lol.
Yeah, they really don't. Locusts need to be strong in order to achieve the area control that they're good for. You can always retreat from the locusts due to the timed life - plus the hosts themselves are extremely vulnerable during the time between locust spawns.
On September 30 2012 07:42 StreetWise wrote: After playing 10+ games using this new mechanic, I must say I prefer the old recall much more. As far as it being too strong on offense, I have suggested on the b.net forum to possibly give it a leash mechanic, such as only being able to move on pylon power.
I like this idea. Adds more to the race, and adds a little more skill to it. Good idea mangggg
Locust damage vs units is fine for zoning, forcing retreat etc. If they need a nerf because contains etc are too strong I think they should lower the damage vs structures only by 5. That way units still need to be controlled vs them, but they won't destroy bases.
Just an idea for Terran. Could an upgrade that lets you transform a production building into another for a certain amount and build time, maybe using a scv as well. Would allow you to actually transition into different compositions. Just a concept if it is dumb i'm sure ill hear it.
On September 30 2012 10:30 wcr.4fun wrote: the new auto-attack animation is pretty awful. It looks just like a cannon, can't they keep the old purifier animation? that looked pretty cool
It still has that animation when it's on top of the Nexus. But yeah, the standard attack is very hard to spot and just looks measly. Kind of like EMP, except it's kind of worse with EMP, because that ability actually changes the tide of battle and it's practically invisible, LOL.
On September 30 2012 10:30 wcr.4fun wrote: the new auto-attack animation is pretty awful. It looks just like a cannon, can't they keep the old purifier animation? that looked pretty cool
It still has that animation when it's on top of the Nexus. But yeah, the standard attack is very hard to spot and just looks measly. Kind of like EMP, except it's kind of worse with EMP, because that ability actually changes the tide of battle and it's practically invisible, LOL.
Agree with the visuals though. They need to be changed.
Okay, so, guys. Im just a humble sc2 watcher who hasnt played in months. But, I have a suggestion. Instead of doing all this tweaking and crap with entomb, why not do something like this? Replace entomb with a spell that covers a group of mineral patches in electricity or something. When units mine from the mineral patches, they take damage. Of course this spell would still only affect workers since other units cant mine from minerals. I think itd be kinda cool, but honestly i didnt think too hard about it...
Edit: Also, why not put widow mines on thors instead of that useless spell?
On September 30 2012 10:30 wcr.4fun wrote: the new auto-attack animation is pretty awful. It looks just like a cannon, can't they keep the old purifier animation? that looked pretty cool
It still has that animation when it's on top of the Nexus. But yeah, the standard attack is very hard to spot and just looks measly. Kind of like EMP, except it's kind of worse with EMP, because that ability actually changes the tide of battle and it's practically invisible, LOL.
Agree with the visuals though. They need to be changed.
Give them some time lol. They're probably first going to see if the mechanic plays out fine before they dedicate time to create a more fitting visual for it.
On September 30 2012 10:30 wcr.4fun wrote: the new auto-attack animation is pretty awful. It looks just like a cannon, can't they keep the old purifier animation? that looked pretty cool
It still has that animation when it's on top of the Nexus. But yeah, the standard attack is very hard to spot and just looks measly. Kind of like EMP, except it's kind of worse with EMP, because that ability actually changes the tide of battle and it's practically invisible, LOL.
Agree with the visuals though. They need to be changed.
am I the only one who see's Agree as an advertisement in his original post? 0_0
I'm seeing more random words having a link with an ad attached, so strange.
"After testing this all day today this actually makes PvP horrific. Prior to these changes PvP was actually GOOD because the MC made u play defensively instead of like WOL where you just attacked instantly without thought. There are many things people don't understand change high level gameplay drastically. One of these being able to see up cliffs with an air unit early game+blink/4 gate. These changes are BAD! MC is a defensive unit with utility, not an attacking unit."
90% of the skeptics here sound exactly, and believe me if you were not around, exactly like the skeptics for the WoL beta, same cries, same theory crafting and same beliefs, but the fact is WoL turned out to be a great game and almost all of the originally concerns were unfounded, I am not a fortune teller (duh) but I am just seeing history repeat itself, which isn't entirely bad considering how WoL turned out. However it is entirely redundant too make the same cries, but it does crack the whip on Blizzard which seemed to work the last time so carry on, but I wouldn't be too worried about the state of HOTS, things have always seemed to work themselves out for SC2 in the past, remember these are the same people who brought you WoL, and the same company who brought the golden game of BroodWar. No matter how insane they seem, it is still them, so hold their feet to the fire and keep them true, but all this concerning about the game will probably be unfounded
On September 30 2012 16:32 Slago wrote: remember these are the same people who brought you WoL, and the same company who brought the golden game of BroodWar. No matter how insane they seem, it is still them, so hold their feet to the fire and keep them true, but all this concerning about the game will probably be unfounded
On September 30 2012 16:17 larse wrote: So PvP becomes much much worse with this change.
Here is a quote I copy from youtube comment:
"After testing this all day today this actually makes PvP horrific. Prior to these changes PvP was actually GOOD because the MC made u play defensively instead of like WOL where you just attacked instantly without thought. There are many things people don't understand change high level gameplay drastically. One of these being able to see up cliffs with an air unit early game+blink/4 gate. These changes are BAD! MC is a defensive unit with utility, not an attacking unit."
If I'm not mistaken, a blink stalker push unusually happens around 7min earliest. More than enough time to place between 3 to 6 widow mines along the cliffs initially and reposition them later.
so now the mothership core has to fly around with the armyto recall? thats kinda strange it's like a horrible mothership xD and when they say "when purify is cast the mothership core attaches itself to a nexus" do they mean instantly or does it have to fly across the map (which would like take forever with jsut 1.8... speed)
my biggest problem is that they just want to kick out one of the new hots maps eventhough most of them are terrible
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
They're adding an entire single player campaign. This is just the multiplayer aspect.
Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
Uh. Make marines/queens? It moves at the speed of a battlecruiser. If they scout you with it, it's basically a free kill. I mean, the thing struggles to solo a stalker.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
They're adding an entire single player campaign. This is just the multiplayer aspect.
Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
Uh. Make marines/queens? It moves at the speed of a battlecruiser. If they scout you with it, it's basically a free kill. I mean, the thing struggles to solo a stalker.
It can still be abused in early pushes. Watch ToD - SjoW from yesterdays tournament and you'll see how broken it is.
On September 30 2012 17:31 sVnteen wrote: so now the mothership core has to fly around with the armyto recall?
Indeed. Or it just stays somewhere behind the army.
and when they say "when purify is cast the mothership core attaches itself to a nexus" do they mean instantly or does it have to fly across the map (which would like take forever with just 1.8... speed)
The attaching is pretty instant, if I remember it correctly, and hasn't a huge range. So the Core flies close to the Nexus to attach to it.
Well given its stats, it's a hard sell to me that there are NO COUNTERS to MsC stalker rush, between queen's Transfuse and AA dps and early access to widow mines, I feel it's more a matter of inexperience with the new tactics than imba.
On September 30 2012 18:27 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Well given its stats, it's a hard sell to me that there are NO COUNTERS to MsC stalker rush, between queen's Transfuse and AA dps and early access to widow mines, I feel it's more a matter of inexperience with the new tactics than imba.
I feel like the most problematic thing is going to be blink+MSC in PvP. No obs needed anymore. Well and of course it sucks that you cannot go 3hatch against 1base P anymore (I think). As long as Swarm Hosts are strong enough to use 2base gas income offensively it feels OK.
On September 30 2012 18:27 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Well given its stats, it's a hard sell to me that there are NO COUNTERS to MsC stalker rush, between queen's Transfuse and AA dps and early access to widow mines, I feel it's more a matter of inexperience with the new tactics than imba.
I feel like the most problematic thing is going to be blink+MSC in PvP. No obs needed anymore. Well and of course it sucks that you cannot go 3hatch against 1base P anymore (I think). As long as Swarm Hosts are strong enough to use 2base gas income offensively it feels OK.
It sure feels like blink all-ins will become really strong wihout needing to invest in a robotics facility like you are saying, both in PvP and in PvT (vs 1 rax expand).
On a side note: You have never been able to go 3 base zerg vs 1 base protoss. If so, the protoss is doing something wrong.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
They're adding an entire single player campaign. This is just the multiplayer aspect.
Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
Uh. Make marines/queens? It moves at the speed of a battlecruiser. If they scout you with it, it's basically a free kill. I mean, the thing struggles to solo a stalker.
Because it is a lot cheaper, faster and safer to just scout with the core.
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
They're adding an entire single player campaign. This is just the multiplayer aspect.
Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
Uh. Make marines/queens? It moves at the speed of a battlecruiser. If they scout you with it, it's basically a free kill. I mean, the thing struggles to solo a stalker.
Because it is a lot cheaper, faster and safer to just scout with the core.
Then again, is it not stupid to throw your core away like that when you need it closer to home for energize/purify?
Throwing away an energy unit to scout seems like a bit of a bad idea, it'd be better to just use observers, halucinations or a pheonix. You're more likely guarenteed a scout if you're not controlling them badly.
On September 30 2012 18:27 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Well given its stats, it's a hard sell to me that there are NO COUNTERS to MsC stalker rush, between queen's Transfuse and AA dps and early access to widow mines, I feel it's more a matter of inexperience with the new tactics than imba.
I feel like the most problematic thing is going to be blink+MSC in PvP. No obs needed anymore. Well and of course it sucks that you cannot go 3hatch against 1base P anymore (I think). As long as Swarm Hosts are strong enough to use 2base gas income offensively it feels OK.
It sure feels like blink all-ins will become really strong wihout needing to invest in a robotics facility like you are saying, both in PvP and in PvT (vs 1 rax expand).
You have to invest 100gas into the MSC, instead of the 175gas for Robo+Obs, so you get additionally to the already existing blink rushes: 1 stalker, a weak cannon, and the possibility to recall. You miss out on having an invisible unit to give vision, and so less possibilities to abuse the strength of blink stalkers, surprise flanks/attacks.
Considering the current state of blink rushes I don't see this being "really strong".
And to your point saying that it could be good vs. 1 rax expand builds. I'd be glad if Protoss had with the blink-stalker rush a possibility to punish someone who goes overly greedy expanding quickly. The reason for this being since someone expands too early they're spread to thin and you need units with high mobility (blink stalkers) to abuse this...
Funny thing to realize that ToD have totaly quit wol. ToD have this season on hots over 100 games and overall much more! And this is already 4th season in hots lol?
On September 30 2012 04:21 GinDo wrote: HOTs keeps making little to no progress. The whole expansion seems like DLC that's probably only worth $20-25. I've seen F2P games make more significant additions in a patch, then Blizzard does in an Expansion.
Please Blizzard prove me wrong.
They're adding an entire single player campaign. This is just the multiplayer aspect.
Starcraft has a story?
But, really. Nobody is buying the game for the story. The concentration has always been on multiplayer in SC2. People would pay $60 just for SC2 Multiplayer, but people won't pay $60 for just a campaign in SC2.
And right now only Zerg seem like their actually getting something significant in HOTs. Everyone else is getting the short end of the design stick. Especially Protoss.
Also you have to remember that HOTs will play a valuable role regarding the longevity of HOTS. If HOTS does not manage to respark interest in SC2 as an Esport, SC2 might not have a huge fan base once LOTV come out. Ehh, but that's just my opinion on the subject.
We might look back at this 3 years down the pipeline and look at how crappy WOL and HOTS were once LOTV is established, asking our selves how the heck did we put up with that crap.
On September 30 2012 17:14 Psychobabas wrote: Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
? why?
The speed of the Mothership Core (MC) means it can reach the opponent very early alongside a gateway army. The core gives vision uphill so the protoss can pick off walling structures and units without ever getting close to the ramp at a stage in the game where the terran will have few units if he went for early CC. Furthermore it forces the terran into getting a fast viking or produce many marines (low marinenumbers gets picked off too easily leaving no AA against the core).
Overall I think speed of the MC is problematic for PvT where the mere possiblity of MC+GW pressure removes 50% of the potential terran openings, because they simply can't deal with the core. This is amplified on certain maps where the ramp is placed kind of unfortunate from a defensive standpoint.
It's too early to determine whether it is truly an imbalance or if terran has 10 viable openings that deals with the MC pressure in a reliable fashion, but from the looks of it protosses have been given a very easy PvT opening and if we know terrans their response to hardship will be going back to 1/1/1 that would probably deal well with MC.
edit:
On September 30 2012 21:26 GinDo wrote: Also you have to remember that HOTs will play a valuable role regarding the longevity of HOTS. If HOTS does not manage to respark interest in SC2 as an Esport, SC2 might not have a huge fan base once LOTV come out. Ehh, but that's just my opinion on the subject.
We might look back at this 3 years down the pipeline and look at how crappy WOL and HOTS were once LOTV is established, asking our selves how the heck did we put up with that crap.
Is there any real RTS competitor out there? If not the core RTS fans will stick with SC2. So unless one of the other big RTS franchises (C&C, AoE, etc.) comes out with something appealing in the coming years I don't see SC2 dying as an e-Sport. It may however not be as popular as it is now, but alot of us don't like MOBA games as a replacement for RTS!
Oh shit I just realized, motership core having basic attack means that now protoss can open ffe and deny any scouting of the natural gas and the main in ZvP.
How will this ever be possible to balance? Protoss having gas or not makes for completely different responses from zerg.
On September 30 2012 17:14 Psychobabas wrote: Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
? why?
The speed of the Mothership Core (MC) means it can reach the opponent very early alongside a gateway army. The core gives vision uphill so the protoss can pick off walling structures and units without ever getting close to the ramp at a stage in the game where the terran will have few units if he went for early CC. Furthermore it forces the terran into getting a fast viking or produce many marines (low marinenumbers gets picked off too easily leaving no AA against the core).
Overall I think speed of the MC is problematic for PvT where the mere possiblity of MC+GW pressure removes 50% of the potential terran openings, because they simply can't deal with the core. This is amplified on certain maps where the ramp is placed kind of unfortunate from a defensive standpoint.
It's too early to determine whether it is truly an imbalance or if terran has 10 viable openings that deals with the MC pressure in a reliable fashion, but from the looks of it protosses have been given a very easy PvT opening and if we know terrans their response to hardship will be going back to 1/1/1 that would probably deal well with MC.
On September 30 2012 21:26 GinDo wrote: Also you have to remember that HOTs will play a valuable role regarding the longevity of HOTS. If HOTS does not manage to respark interest in SC2 as an Esport, SC2 might not have a huge fan base once LOTV come out. Ehh, but that's just my opinion on the subject.
We might look back at this 3 years down the pipeline and look at how crappy WOL and HOTS were once LOTV is established, asking our selves how the heck did we put up with that crap.
Is there any real RTS competitor out there? If not the core RTS fans will stick with SC2. So unless one of the other big RTS franchises (C&C, AoE, etc.) comes out with something appealing in the coming years I don't see SC2 dying as an e-Sport. It may however not be as popular as it is now, but alot of us don't like MOBA games as a replacement for RTS!
Protoss will have even less unit than terran if p went for 1g expand.
On September 30 2012 21:40 NeonFox wrote: Oh shit I just realized, motership core having basic attack means that now protoss can open ffe and deny any scouting of the natural gas and the main in ZvP.
How will this ever be possible to balance? Protoss having gas or not makes for completely different responses from zerg.
On September 30 2012 21:40 NeonFox wrote: Oh shit I just realized, motership core having basic attack means that now protoss can open ffe and deny any scouting of the natural gas and the main in ZvP.
How will this ever be possible to balance? Protoss having gas or not makes for completely different responses from zerg.
Msc dont shoot air.
Well that changes a lot then. Thank you for correcting my fail.
On September 30 2012 17:14 Psychobabas wrote: Protoss now freely scouts with mothership core without robo and observer.
It is completely broken...
? why?
The speed of the Mothership Core (MC) means it can reach the opponent very early alongside a gateway army. The core gives vision uphill so the protoss can pick off walling structures and units without ever getting close to the ramp at a stage in the game where the terran will have few units if he went for early CC. Furthermore it forces the terran into getting a fast viking or produce many marines (low marinenumbers gets picked off too easily leaving no AA against the core).
Overall I think speed of the MC is problematic for PvT where the mere possiblity of MC+GW pressure removes 50% of the potential terran openings, because they simply can't deal with the core. This is amplified on certain maps where the ramp is placed kind of unfortunate from a defensive standpoint.
It's too early to determine whether it is truly an imbalance or if terran has 10 viable openings that deals with the MC pressure in a reliable fashion, but from the looks of it protosses have been given a very easy PvT opening and if we know terrans their response to hardship will be going back to 1/1/1 that would probably deal well with MC.
edit:
On September 30 2012 21:26 GinDo wrote: Also you have to remember that HOTs will play a valuable role regarding the longevity of HOTS. If HOTS does not manage to respark interest in SC2 as an Esport, SC2 might not have a huge fan base once LOTV come out. Ehh, but that's just my opinion on the subject.
We might look back at this 3 years down the pipeline and look at how crappy WOL and HOTS were once LOTV is established, asking our selves how the heck did we put up with that crap.
Is there any real RTS competitor out there? If not the core RTS fans will stick with SC2. So unless one of the other big RTS franchises (C&C, AoE, etc.) comes out with something appealing in the coming years I don't see SC2 dying as an e-Sport. It may however not be as popular as it is now, but alot of us don't like MOBA games as a replacement for RTS!
Protoss will have even less unit than terran if p went for 1g expand.
I don't think 1gate expand would be the standard go to build with MC in the picture. Costing 100/100 the MC is a significant investment and I doubt that it is safe to open 1g expansion into infrastructure + MC. I think building MC right after 1g expansion would take away from other aspects of that opening making it weaker against a couple of normal terran builds. I rather think 2/3 gates with pressure while expanding safely behind is a better choice, because it gives the P quite a lot units early that can poke hard at almost any terran opening and outright deny the natural for greedy terran openings.
That said I think the MC is better in its current form. The old MC with recall was kind of imba because it allowed protosses to suicide push into regions where they normally would not have an option to retreat, but now with recall they can. Having to bring the MC is a weakness to such play, because it can be killed fairly easily and the movement speed is not very fast, so the opponent has more time to respond and defend in various places.
I do not like the fact they change the MC. Thought that it should be a defensive unit/building. Although liked it more when MC was still attached to the nexus.
Though, statistically someone else suggested it before I did, I like to think the 'lasts until cancelled' and 'regens no energy while on' aspects were taken from my suggestion posted here
I think the mothership core still has a lot of issues offensively:
1) It can do early game harassment to workers.
2) It still buffs early pushes even by dealing a small bit of damage.
3) It can be used just like overlords to scout early game and you can't hide tech from them cause they're so fast
It is cost inefficient as an addition to your army, except in that it allows you to teleport away--which is the whole point of the unit in the first place, to give Protoss more ability to get aggressive in the early and mid-game without going all-in. It is also much more expensive than an Overlord, so while it does open up new scouting options (which is a good thing, as it helps reduce randomness early on in the game and thereby cut down on build order wins), if the enemy does manage to pick it off it can really set you back.
I like the core in its current form. What about putting a maximum number of units that can be recalled to avoid deathball play? You could lower the energy cost with this kind of restriction too.
On September 29 2012 08:08 avilo wrote: That's it for Terran? -_- good change though, 4 sec to burrow seemed like forever. Supply cost is still too expensive imo.
I agree, It feels like theyre gonnna get used at often as burrowed banelings in a way. Cool but not used often.. imo bring back the spider mine, make a new unit that just lays the mines for like 25 minerals each or something with a cooldown.
On October 01 2012 00:13 Prime Directive wrote: I like the core in its current form. What about putting a maximum number of units that can be recalled to avoid deathball play? You could lower the energy cost with this kind of restriction too.
There is a limit to units recalled, range 7 from the MC, or diameter of 14. This will favor zealot/colossi builds as they are much more compact than stalker.
On October 01 2012 00:13 Prime Directive wrote: I like the core in its current form. What about putting a maximum number of units that can be recalled to avoid deathball play? You could lower the energy cost with this kind of restriction too.
There is a limit to units recalled, range 7 from the MC, or diameter of 14. This will favor zealot/colossi builds as they are much more compact than stalker.
I guarantee you that any maxed army from protoss will be recalled completely with a range of 7 (diameter of 14). Even mass stalker would be completely teleported.
I really dislike the offensive capeabilities of the MSC. Don't think it'll stay . It comes way too early and forces you to get AA super fast everytime or you'll probably just lose the game to a intended defensive unit / structure. Especially the granting vision so stalkers can pick off your wall while you can't really do anything against it is very annoying. It's not even that much of a commitment unlike Voidrays for example. Right now you have to open with alot of Marines or fast tech to a Viking everytime you play TvP .
Right now just the fact that the MSC exists and can be used offensivly massively limits openings you can do as Terran. Anything with Marauders/Reapers/Helion expand is basically not possible . You need decent Anti-Air first. Terran doesn't have Queens that work as AA not matter how they chose to play.
They will probably have to limit the MSC's movement range and give it the old recall back.
On September 30 2012 22:34 Foxxan wrote: THis makes all races have fast scout in the game
zerg: overlord terran: new raper protoss: mothership core
More skill now
Skill is on the fact that you have to interpret the limited amount of information you get and react to it, not move click the overlord thats parked next to a base and just get the counter unit
On September 30 2012 23:01 kiklion wrote: Though, statistically someone else suggested it before I did, I like to think the 'lasts until cancelled' and 'regens no energy while on' aspects were taken from my suggestion posted here
First of all its a good thing that purify is linked to the nexus now. But the msc shoud not be able to move that quick. Protoss pushes get too strong too early. Its normal attack shoud also not have that much range. Insteat of this give him the ability to teleport from one nexus to the next , if its connected with the nexus while purifying.
Also i feel that energize has to less tradeoffs. If the viper consumes a building it gets damaged. It shoud be consequent that energize has at least some tradeoffs, or its just another boost abillity like chronoboost,larva inject and mules.
-energize shoud take the energie of an building or an unit and give it to another building or unit, like an converter, in my opinion.
Still waiting for them to remove mothership vortex... hero units are kinda lame in a game like sc2, everything ends up focused on one unit our around one unit.
On October 01 2012 09:38 Freefall22 wrote: Still waiting for them to remove mothership vortex... hero units are kinda lame in a game like sc2, everything ends up focused on one unit our around one unit.
I don't think hero units are the problem, I think hero units which give an offensive advantage are. Back before SC2 beta Blizzard was toying around with making the Queen a hero unit which can teleport (Burrow where it is an unburrow at) to any allied hatchery to perform injects and defense. A hero unit with this design for example would not create a deathball centered on it. IDK about the Mothership itself, but the MSC could be designed in a way which prevents deathball problems based on it.
On October 01 2012 09:38 Freefall22 wrote: Still waiting for them to remove mothership vortex... hero units are kinda lame in a game like sc2, everything ends up focused on one unit our around one unit.
They can't remove Vortex without giving Protoss an answer to Brood Lord/Infestor, which they haven't.
Tempest is the answer to the Brood Lords. The stats are nowhere near perfect yet, but it's role is becoming more defined with each patch. If Vortex was removed during beta Blizzard would get access to a lot of Tempest vs late game Zerg data and be able to tweak the stats into something useable for its new role.
The new mothership core encourages deathballs as it has to travel with our 1 army. We want it to encourage early aggression yet multi pronged attacks right? Like now we don't lose all our sentries if we attack before 20 minute/s which is good?
On October 01 2012 12:00 R3demption wrote: The new mothership core encourages deathballs as it has to travel with our 1 army. We want it to encourage early aggression yet multi pronged attacks right? Like now we don't lose all our sentries if we attack before 20 minute/s which is good?
/Mixed feelings
I think the only way to make a recall spell encourage multi pronged attacks (and without benefiting death balls) is to design it more like the Motherships recall (ports 'target area' to 'mobile air units' location), but make the AoE much smaller (seriously like 1.5-2.5) and make the unit which casts the spell a non-unique (not a hero) unit. Similar design wise to an arbiter but with no cloaking field or stasis. This way units can be recalled into and out of battle zones in small groups all over the map, death balls would be difficult to save even with 5-6 recalls due to the small AoE area. It encourages harassment and multi pronged attacks and has a very high skill ceiling because of the difficulty of larger ports vs the rewards. The unit would need high enough health to get past 2-3 turrets but to still die to a very small anti air force attempting to deflect it, and a gas/supply cost low enough to make having 4-6 of them viable and loosing them suck but not ruining you (1-2 supply, 75 gas, balance cost on minerals). To help maintain skill requirements the recall should take 5 seconds to charge up (while the unit is still moving) before the recall triggers. This means that you need to start the recall before the unit gets into the enemy base so it does not die before the recall completes.
On October 01 2012 04:26 Chrono000 wrote: so overpowered now the protoss units and really really easy to use them all.
stfu unless you can elaborate. i played zerg and toss, currently toss, and i will tell you that zerg units are MUCH easier to use. there is only one unit that even requires some technical ability and that is the infestor, all of the other units require correct positioning and basic micro. i am not saying zerg is the easiest to play, but i am saying that zerg units are not difficult to maneauver. i believe the game is pretty damn balanced overall when you take into consideration more than just how easy/hard it is to use units, such as macro. Things like injects, mules, and chronoboosts...as well as upgrades, worker production, scouting ability, and forming a good unit composition. The game is in a good state and it is ignorant to just spout bullshit like "dis race ez to use so its op right guys".
I think that in order to make Mech viable in TvP, they should add a tech lab upgrade:
-+15 damage against shields for tanks in siege mode, it shouldn't be considered part of their "regular" damage, so for example. they'll do 25 damage against Immortals - 10 damage after the hardened shields lower the "normal" damage, and then an extra 15 shield damage. Also this ability could only work against targeted units, and doesn't have splash damage, maybe have a smaller splash or something, I don't know. And make it require armory so that it isn't viable for 1-1-1- or something.
On October 01 2012 09:38 Freefall22 wrote: Still waiting for them to remove mothership vortex... hero units are kinda lame in a game like sc2, everything ends up focused on one unit our around one unit.
They can't remove Vortex without giving Protoss an answer to Brood Lord/Infestor, which they haven't.
Wasn't they going to give the mothership stasis? What happened to that idea?
On October 01 2012 07:06 Jett2200 wrote: y does toss keep getting buffed?
Because hots isnt about balance yet. (at least it shouldnt)
I got beta 2 days ago, played a bunch and I dont like MS core. It's so... weird? It has an auto-attack which is useful only in the early game (cheese mostly), any roach/ling/bane allins are most likely to disappear, vT it doesn't change much, additional stalker would be just as useful. You have to decide to either use it offensively or defensively, which I guess is a good thing? I don't know. Recall change made it really confusing to use and late game recall multi prong attacks are so risky (2 vikings, few stimmed marines or some hydras/mutas/corruptors and your core is dead). Purify is weird too, when you have to use purify that means you are losing the fight and it's easy for enemy to snipe it (unless it's roach allin). Also a concept of a hero unit in SC2 is wrong IMO.
I'd rather have sentry removed and protoss early game redesigned.
I don't understand why, with all the suggested changes to purify that made sense, that they went with some strange, restrictive use of it?
EDIT: I could see how recall to a mobile mothershipcore was pretty op... especially to a zerg trying to defend his third against a 4gate +1... just fly your msc to his main and when his units show up to defend third, recall then snipe tech or hatch/lair.
I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
Guys, don't worry about the mothership core being this big "almighty savior" do the protoss deathball. Sure, a protoss can now fit his entire army underneath the protective sphere and teleport back home, but what is that really going to accomplish? I you were going to lose the battle at the enemy base then you're going to lose the battle wherever if we're talking big 200/200 armies colliding with each other. Recalling your entire army will do nothing but protract inevitable destruction. Using the recall ability to safely use groups of units to harass and scout is a great use of the new recall spell. You may THINK that recalling your entire army will be overpowered, but wait about a week and testing will show that recalling your 200/200 army will not save it from anything
What about recalling a non 200/200 army? Recall can be very usefull earlier, protoss don't have to wait untill 200/200 army clash to recall... And even then, would you rather recall your army or have to rebuild it?
i think a cool way to change phase shield would be to make it like guardian shield. By this I mean you activate the ability on the oracle and for a VERY short time the units under/around it are immune to those abilities (i.e the ones they have right now)
On October 02 2012 02:48 Fetchystick wrote: Guys, don't worry about the mothership core being this big "almighty savior" do the protoss deathball. Sure, a protoss can now fit his entire army underneath the protective sphere and teleport back home, but what is that really going to accomplish? I you were going to lose the battle at the enemy base then you're going to lose the battle wherever if we're talking big 200/200 armies colliding with each other. Recalling your entire army will do nothing but protract inevitable destruction. Using the recall ability to safely use groups of units to harass and scout is a great use of the new recall spell. You may THINK that recalling your entire army will be overpowered, but wait about a week and testing will show that recalling your 200/200 army will not save it from anything
But of its not 200 you can add reinforce ments needed plus the enemy especially t won't get theres to your front door in time
On October 02 2012 02:48 Fetchystick wrote: Guys, don't worry about the mothership core being this big "almighty savior" do the protoss deathball. Sure, a protoss can now fit his entire army underneath the protective sphere and teleport back home, but what is that really going to accomplish? I you were going to lose the battle at the enemy base then you're going to lose the battle wherever if we're talking big 200/200 armies colliding with each other. Recalling your entire army will do nothing but protract inevitable destruction. Using the recall ability to safely use groups of units to harass and scout is a great use of the new recall spell. You may THINK that recalling your entire army will be overpowered, but wait about a week and testing will show that recalling your 200/200 army will not save it from anything
Uh have you ever heard of positioning? You don't have to have a 200/200 army to recall but let's say you are in that situation.
Let's say a zerg/terran army comes from 3-4 different directions. You recall and if he goes to push into one of your bases it'll be in 1 area and your army will crush it. this is just a small example of how you are incorrect on "If you couldn't beat his army at your opponents base then you couldn't do it when you recall".
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
I understand that many parts of my statement had flaws, but I still feel that relying on the recall will not give you powerful map control. Sure you can reinforce, but the fact of the matter is, when you have your big armies fighting against each other recall will not be able to save you the fight over and over again.
The ability to save a few harassing units is better than running into a losing battle because you can just recall your big army. You will ultimately lose the war of attrition. Sure, you save the day, but you just took a bad engagement, and that KILLS protoss.
To sum it up, even though I can recall, I just lost 3 times as much supply as the other dude and that is not worth putting a mothership core in my army instead of using it to harass.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
At least a third of Terran options in WoL is total crap. They have most options but since so many of them are just useless this doesn't really matter . Terran in WoL was the most complete race then they made several units and upgrades totally useless now it def. isn't anymore. Zerg probably is right now.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
On October 02 2012 05:49 link0 wrote: Mothership core still keeps blink all-ins extremely powerful in P v T by removing the need to build a robo and observers to blink up.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote: [quote] I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
And how effective is Mech-play in TvP ? HotS didn't change much if anything for TvP , yet.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote: [quote]
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
And how effective is Mech-play in TvP ? HotS didn't change much if anything for TvP , yet.
What about TvZ? Stop looking at all the negatives, Banshee Mech is slowly becoming a nice alternative to Marine Tank in TvZ so saying having too much gas in lategame is a moronic statement. You frequently see Zergs in late-game having 3k minerals and 0 gas because of Brood/Infestor composition, does that mean it would be fair for them to petition Blizzard for more triple gas bases?
On October 02 2012 04:41 pmp10 wrote: [quote] Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
[quote] Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
And how effective is Mech-play in TvP ? HotS didn't change much if anything for TvP , yet.
What about TvZ? Stop looking at all the negatives, Banshee Mech is slowly becoming a nice alternative to Marine Tank in TvZ so saying having too much gas in lategame is a moronic statement. You frequently see Zergs in late-game having 3k minerals and 0 gas because of Brood/Infestor composition, does that mean it would be fair for them to petition Blizzard for more triple gas bases?
It would still be nice if every Unit in the game had a purpose/use in every MU without beeing overpowered. I hope Blizzard implements changes father down in the Beta to underused old units to at least show some effort
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote: [quote]
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
And how effective is Mech-play in TvP ? HotS didn't change much if anything for TvP , yet.
There are actually some very good threads about how to mech a protoss, but that is besides the point. It is still viable and effective in other matchups, so you can't really blame map imbalance just because one match-up a Terran may be floating gas. That extra gas could be useful for supreme late game anyway where the Terran may want to switch to BC's
On September 30 2012 18:27 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Well given its stats, it's a hard sell to me that there are NO COUNTERS to MsC stalker rush, between queen's Transfuse and AA dps and early access to widow mines, I feel it's more a matter of inexperience with the new tactics than imba.
I feel like the most problematic thing is going to be blink+MSC in PvP. No obs needed anymore. Well and of course it sucks that you cannot go 3hatch against 1base P anymore (I think). As long as Swarm Hosts are strong enough to use 2base gas income offensively it feels OK.
It sure feels like blink all-ins will become really strong wihout needing to invest in a robotics facility like you are saying, both in PvP and in PvT (vs 1 rax expand).
On a side note: You have never been able to go 3 base zerg vs 1 base protoss. If so, the protoss is doing something wrong.
Blink all ins are way stronger, if you can deal the dmg early. If your opponent is prepared just enough, it's way to easy to lose your mcore, or force a recall. Because it isn't cloaked, you can't get it as close without it taking a little bit of dmg. As a priority, losing a couple units to kill it off puts you pretty far ahead since your opponent lost vision withit and has to either, wait for a new one to fly across map, build a robo/observer, or do something else. I haven't found enough zergs on hots yet to try stuff like 4gate allin's with the MCore as part of the comp. I've done the 2base 7gate all in with+1 at 7:30, however, because of the MCore, you need to either skip gateway 7 or sacrifice some enconomy and intial warp ins. It's a bit stronger, however it has 3 independent yet big week points now: 1: if you sacrifice a little economy, you can't sustain the 7gate very well, so if you can't break the zerg early, you fall further behind than normal. 2. If you sacrifice the strength of your initial warp in, you run the risk of being deflected more easily at the start. Eitherway, you end up behind in tech if it fails. 3. Sacrificing the upgrade weakens your army significantly.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote: [quote]
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
Then the problem is with claiming that everyone agrees on it. The only thing about terran completeness I'll agree on is that it's the closest race to being completely broken.
It's obviously just an opinion but a very common one in the community. Even Browder aknowledges it somewhat.
Dustin Browder: There's currently a concern with the Zerg Infestor's power fungal growth. I still hear a lot of complaints about the Zerg still not being strong enough, as well as Terrans still being too flexible. The latter's the most persistent one for the longest time. That's almost a design flaw not a balance flaw. We just have too many good units in that race. It's hard to cut units in that race and say, "I know you have a lot of good units, but we're killing two because [your race] is too good." (laughs) That's not going to work. And it's not fun to go, "Hey, you know that unit that was fun and useful? Well, we ruined it, so now your race is balanced." That feels terrible too. Those are some of the hot areas I've heard.
If by broken, you mean underpowered then, maybe... but has been the most dominant race in WOL by such a large margin, maybe it's not so bad we relinquish some domination at the end of WOL's lifetime
i think that terran is still missing a good lategame gas sink. Maybe the new battlecruiser will fill this role, or possibly the raven if it gets adjusted.
I don't really think having excess gas should necessarily be considered a problem, basically that means Terran spends more minerals than gas which is good, because they have mules and minerals are easier to get.
Then mapmakers should stop implementing extra Gas geysirs / rich gas geysirs if one races can't benefit from them for example. Or they should start making maps with extra minerals / fewer gas as well.
Looks , it's just not good game design if one race can't spend one of only two resources effectively because the units requiring high amount of that resource are just not very useful .
I would think mech play would be very expensive on gas?
And how effective is Mech-play in TvP ? HotS didn't change much if anything for TvP , yet.
Tvp is favoring terran a little bit right now. Protoss can use the stargate more safely now, however, it needs to transition before the midgame gets kicking. You need to do a decent amount of harassment as well. Terrans have been working the battle hellion into the bio ball, which really hurts zealots. It seriously weakens the ability to use zealots effectively. Since the battle hellion deals so well with them, tanks can work their way back into the matchup. Mech in Tvp doesn't usually happen(in my experience so far) till the 10-12 minute mark. Been seeing a lot of bio openings that transition into mech. Other than that, mech still has a couple of mobility weak points that protoss can exploit to win. A Big problem I've encountered in PvT, is when terran get ghost while having battle hellions on their composition. It really hurts. Zealots are no longer useful at all. 50dmg to them before they get to hellions, only to be wiped out in a split second. It also makes the Archon a little weaker. So far, protoss hasn't gotten much to deal with Terran in HotS. If the Tempest had splash dmg, even if only a little bit, maybe it could be useful in all matchups. Right now, it's only been a liability to me in all 3. It's only been a unit with low versatiliy. In engaments, it's good for taking out the massive unts however, you wont kill more than a couple during the battle with your tempest. For they're cost, it's just not worth it.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
At least a third of Terran options in WoL is total crap. They have most options but since so many of them are just useless this doesn't really matter . Terran in WoL was the most complete race then they made several units and upgrades totally useless now it def. isn't anymore. Zerg probably is right now.
zerg isnt a complete race. its just that the infestor fills every single role
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
At least a third of Terran options in WoL is total crap. They have most options but since so many of them are just useless this doesn't really matter . Terran in WoL was the most complete race then they made several units and upgrades totally useless now it def. isn't anymore. Zerg probably is right now.
zerg isnt a complete race. its just that the infestor fills every single role
i wish they would drop the pretense and just rename the battle hellion into firebat and make it buildable from the barracks and give it the firebat model from WoL
if they want to use battle hellion they have to think of something more clever
Late to the party here but how does the speedier MSC contribute to non-deathball play? It seem to me that it will be another "must-have" unit in a deathball.
All this talk on terran being the most complete race is garbage, timing attacks are crucial to victory, these are the only way to win out in macro by putting the enemy on the back foot, if terran simply tries to keep pace in the macro without doing damage there are huge openings were the enemy can simply a move to victory thus expelling the race is complete theory from any legitimate unbiased conversation about the workings of the race
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote: What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly.
Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad...
Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else.
I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote: What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly.
Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad...
Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else.
I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
Ok thank you for clearing that up. Maybe they should take away one of the infestors abilities and give another unit an ability that fills the same role?
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote: What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly.
Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad...
Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else.
I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
Ok thank you for clearing that up. Maybe they should take away one of the infestors abilities and give another unit an ability that fills the same role?
I don't think that they will take away some of the ability, but nerf some of them, and specifically fungal growth, they even said that they are taking a look at that ability. Infested Marines are problem when you have high number of Infestors, but you can get to the higher number of them because of the fungal, it stops everything, you just can't kill Zerg when he is camping with 20 Spines and 10 Infestors, and he keep adding more and more Infestors to his army.
Otherwise Infested Marines aren't problem when you have lower number of Infestors because they are immobile, they die to AoE and if Infestors overextend with energy usage on Infested Marines, they won't have enough energy for fungal, where in late game that isn't the problem, since you will always have the energy for fungal with 20+ Infestors... And Neural Parasite is never a problem, since its nerf it is situational ability at best.
I'm sure this has been stated much more eloquently before, but this change completely changes the flavor of the mothership core and not for the better. The previous version of the mothership core opened up a huge new range of possibilities. You could literally throw your dart at a timing and pick that time for aggression and that's what's needed especially against zerg. Zerg has been steadily reaching a point where they can react to any aggression and come out ahead provided they see it coming. What's needed to counteract this is the ability to be random, reactive and reflexive- the opposite of Protoss. With the new mothership core, needing to protect it, Protoss will once again have to go back to only their strongest timings. And then what's the point of the recall? Fun fact: If you hit a two base timing and march over to the zerg's base and don't do any damage, you're dead. You better keep attacking until you do some damage. The times when recall would actually be useful in that situation will be..situational.
On October 03 2012 08:38 Jerubaal wrote: You could literally throw your dart at a timing and pick that time for aggression and that's what's needed especially against zerg.
It's clear that Blizzard felt that such tactics were too strong, hence the change. Now you can still do timing attacks, you just need to choose between slower attacks with the ability to recall your units if things get hairy, or faster attacks where you don't need to worry about protecting the Mcore.
Widow mine in mineral line is scary with no detection lol.
Maybe have it not target workers like the mine in sc1, if by chance they happen to get it in the mineral line and I have no detection, its basically gg.
I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.
... You do realize the act of having to scan and have enough units there to kill the mine before the scan wears off costs more APM than both P's observer/stalker and Z's overseer/roach/infestor?
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Uhh..how do you figure? Scans should be available damn near all game unless you are mule greedy..and you can scan anywhere. If obs and or overseer are out of position you can't just instantly get vision where you need it.
... You do realize the act of having to scan and have enough units there to kill the mine before the scan wears off costs more APM than both P's observer/stalker and Z's overseer/roach/infestor?
Why would it take more apm? why does that even matter, my point was that scans are always available unless you are reckless with your energy, whereas vision for P or Z is not always available at every base unless you have 1 obs/overseer at every base (or spores or cannons).
On October 03 2012 19:13 NET wrote: Widow mine in mineral line is scary with no detection lol.
Maybe have it not target workers like the mine in sc1, if by chance they happen to get it in the mineral line and I have no detection, its basically gg.
Yeah it is, I think the widow mine should not be activated by workers.
On October 03 2012 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I can see widow mines in the mineral line being a problem in the lower leagues, but come on. Medivac timings are at least 8minutes and above. Given their high cost, anything less than 6 worker kills is hugely expensive because of the gas and one hit nature of the mine.
I agree they COULD be imba if they were placed at expands with no way to defend, but again there ARE So many counters past the 7 minute mark. I do agree that this strategy is problematic for Terrans as scans and ravens aren't as readily available as overseer and observers.
Its the early game proxy factory/in your opponent's base factory that is the problem. Harassing at the front with marine/marauder or reapers with a factory in your opponent's base churning out widow mines is, dare i say it, pretty overpowered. If blizzard changed the widow mine to not be activated by workers this would be much less of a problem.
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
Last time DB wrote about the warhound he said there was no replacement planned. That would at least explain why blizzard is trying to turn widow mine from a strategic weapon into a full-blown unit. But then again DB dose seem to be very flexible with his beta plans so given enough feedback something may change. It will probably depend on how blizzard betas operate - were there any unit additions in WoL beta? IIRC units were removed but I have no idea if anything was ever added.
On October 02 2012 04:27 Apolo wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:36 TheLunatic wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:30 Lylat wrote: I didn't have the chance to get a betakey yet but I watch streams (ForGG and Morrow) and it seems Terrans have no new units except for the mines and the battle helions ? I'm really disappointed as a Terran player since Zergs and Protoss have some cool new units/mechanics... Or do they plan to add a new one ?
I think terrans will be getting screwed this expansion
You're getting it the wrong way. Terran got too much compared to Zerg and Protoss in WoL. It has been the most complete race. Everyone agrees on that. It's only normal this time Terran doesn't get as many new things to balance it out.
Is it wrong that by now I can't even tell if this is sarcasm or not?
He's right. is the most complete race in WOL. I know my username doesn't help, but and need more to fill in the gap than .
At least a third of Terran options in WoL is total crap. They have most options but since so many of them are just useless this doesn't really matter . Terran in WoL was the most complete race then they made several units and upgrades totally useless now it def. isn't anymore. Zerg probably is right now.
zerg isnt a complete race. its just that the infestor fills every single role
What defines a "complete" race? O_o
When your favorite race gets a big red Destructo button that instantly wipes out all enemy units and structures on the map.
On October 03 2012 02:59 kmillz wrote: What defines a "complete" race? O_o
A race that have the most options and its units are usable in a lot of situations, and that every unit fills the gap, or has some role. That being said, none of the races are complete, but the most complete also in my opinion is Terran. Right now, beside the Reaper that is terrible, Battle Cruisers are also almost nonexistent(at least on top level, but they still have their uses), but every other unit is used regularly.
Being the most complete, doesn't mean the strongest, easiest or whatever. Zerg isn't the most complete simply because we can't stay on Lair tech and finish the game if we don't want to commit too much(go all-in), we have to rush the Infestor and Brood Lord army composition because it is easier to play with it and it is really strong. I am forced to do that. Also, at the Lair tech, Hydras are underused, Nydus is underused, Mutas are used less and less, just because Infestor fills every single gap out there. The unit is just awfully designed, because it is answer to everything enemy can make. Seeing 10 Corruptors, 10 Brood Lords and 30+ Infestors in the late game against every single race is just sad...
Infestors need seriously tuning, right now, they are just too good, and there is no drawback by having a lot of the Infestors. I hope that they change it somehow, so it becomes support caster instead of caster that kills everything. Looking at the Zerg streams of HOTS beta, they still prefer to rush to the Infestors than to the Swarm Hosts, or Vipers, or Hydras with speed or anything else.
I am Zerg player, and I hope that what DB said is true(that they will maybe nerf the Infestor while looking at other stuff that Zerg got), because I absolutely hate the current Zerg metagame, rushing Hive at 10th minute, and I hate Infestor + Brood Lord army composition.
I do enjoy the use of SG units in the late game of PvZ if it gets that late lol carriers storm and archons
EPT
*hint hint* :p
changes. At least the 
changes look good.
and 
