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Maps play a huge role in balance. Remember Steppes of War? A common saying is that Brood War is balanced by the mapmakers, the last Brood War balance patch was a decade ago.
Blizzard has a private forum where the pros can discuss directly with the SC2 devs. I'm glad that Blizzard is communicating directly with the pros for balance suggestions. But it seems silly to me that they don't discuss with prominent mapmakers. They have a unique perspective on the game, like how certain aspects of the game limits the diversity of the maps, etc.
Let's be honest, the mapmaking team at Blizzard is not all that great, especially compared to the S-class community mapmakers. Blizz needs all the help that they can when it comes to maps. So hopefully they'll give the mapmakers access, and start the transfer of knowledge, and improve the map pool for everyone 
Me asking Ragoo if they have access to the private forum.
Poll: Should Blizzard invite prominent mapmakers to the pros-only forums?Yes (143) 96% No (6) 4% 149 total votes Your vote: Should Blizzard invite prominent mapmakers to the pros-only forums? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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Yeah, it's kind of sad how people largely ignore mapmakers when the maps are arguably equally or more important than the players in creating an engaging experience for viewers as well as players on ladder. Balance cannot really be discussed without considering map features, there are so many units in SC2 and especially HotS that interact in interesting ways with the terrain. Thus far I feel like melee mapmakers are basically being ignored except for the occasional TL Map contest or GSL adopting some ESV maps which happens not that frequently, and most other tournaments just follow GSL or ladder.
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On September 29 2012 11:19 i.of.the.storm wrote:
Yeah, it's kind of sad how people largely ignore mapmakers when the maps are arguably equally or more important than the players in creating an engaging experience for viewers as well as players on ladder. Balance cannot really be discussed without considering map features, there are so many units in SC2 and especially HotS that interact in interesting ways with the terrain. Thus far I feel like melee mapmakers are basically being ignored except for the occasional TL Map contest or GSL adopting some ESV maps which happens not that frequently, and most other tournaments just follow GSL or ladder.
Exactly. Balance = Unit Stats + Map. Blizzard is too focused on the stats and not on the maps.
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If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps.
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On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps.
...eh? the two best maps in the blizz map pool were made by not-Blizzard's team.
I am honestly surprised Blizzard doesnt just outsource map making to the community. Offer to pay someone 500 bucks or whatever and give them the rough plan you had and let map makers at it in some sort of competition.
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On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps.
And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics.
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I couldn't agree with this more. At least some of the balancing that is done during the beta will become irrelevant once people start playing on proper maps. This can perhaps be seen in the balancing of WoL; some thing may have been horribly imbalanced on smaller maps but actually okay on larger maps but we never got to find out due to the absolutely shit maps in the beta and early days of the game.
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Canada1100 Posts
I cannot see why this would be bad, other than maybe there will be people posing as map makers to spam the forums?
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
Someone should bring this up on the HotS Beta forums, along with the fact we want a better, more direct way of getting community maps into the map pool.
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On September 29 2012 12:20 RavenLoud wrote:
I cannot see why this would be bad, other than maybe there will be people posing as map makers to spam the forums?
Perhaps allow the mapmaking teams a common account instead of trying to find individuals.
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On September 29 2012 12:20 juicyjames wrote:
Someone should bring this up on the HotS Beta forums, along with the fact we want a better, more direct way of getting community maps into the map pool.
I don't have access to the beta forums 
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dont expect anything for hots because blizzard will want to use their maps which can "help show off" the new units and game features, like those falling rocks, which i guarantee no map maker will ever use in their maps.
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I wasn't aware there was a pros only b.net forum. Where did you find this out?
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On September 29 2012 12:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics.
K..... You know that both map makers from the community AND from blizzard are not higher then diamond league right? I'm trying to explain to you that from either side of the playing field if the map maker was in masters or higher this wouldn't be an issue.
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On September 29 2012 12:39 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics. K..... You know that both map makers from the community AND from blizzard are not higher then diamond league right? I'm trying to explain to you that from either side of the playing field if the map maker was in masters or higher this wouldn't be an issue.
I don't know who makes the map at Blizz HQ so I can't comment on their league placement.
I'm having trouble grasping the connection your are trying to make. I want a better map pool and historically, the community map makers create the best maps. Clearly they have some insight/artistry that allows them to create great maps like Cloud Kingdom. I don't see how them being in Diamond makes their mapmaking accomplishments/talents any less useful.
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Can someone post a screenshot of this forum? I want to see some of the subjects at least!
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Oh wow. I'm assuming that's just for sponsored players and not just for average joe GMs?
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On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps.
As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making.
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On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making.
And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair:
A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it
B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops)
C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important.
D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible)
Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play.
So theres no need to cry over spilt milk.
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EPT
