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On September 30 2012 05:57 Sumadin wrote:
I voted No for this. Don't worry i will tell you why
What defines a "prominent" mapmaker? If i had to pick a word that could describe the SC2 mapmaking scene then "oversaturation" would be one i would choose. The reason is simple, There are being made and presented way more maps than the pro scene could ever use. Should all that posted a map on TL have a spot? No the pro-forums would quickly lose their integrity.
Should it then be the teams then? ESV, TPW or Crux(That is the 3 i know of). But TPW have AFAIK never had a map in any of the large tournements: MLG or GSL nor have they had a spot on ladder. Should that excluse them?
More importantly should Blizzard waste time figuring out a filter for which mapmakers are important enough? No i rather have they spend time on gathering feedback and balancing the game. They already announced that Fractured Glacier are getting taken out of the pool, which frankly even i saw coming.
"But Balance = Unit stats+Maps"
Yea but sometimes if a map would be 100% balanced is not the only important thing. They already addressed that the internal imbalance between players is much higher than any imbalance on the maps. This number is caused due to the relatively low number of players currently in beta. Thus the overall imbalance in the beta would never be much different even if the map pool was actually perfectly balanced. They would never be able to use direct numbers right now and they know it.
Also my impression was never the pro forums was only there to be this secret louge of players who secretly decides the ultimate fate of the balance. My impression was that it was set so pro could give their opinions and show their bias without standing responsible against their fanbase. It is also a place where Blizzard can gather feedback from those they consider more suitable to judge balance than the average player. I am not saying pro mapmakers wouldn't be more suitable than the average player to comment about maps, but there are only so much Blizzard can use that feedback for. They have shown to be aware of conserns with the mappool. Posting same conserns daily on the pro forums won't change that. They have heard you and do know. If they chose to react to those concerns well that is a different story.
But at the end of the day, it is Blizzards choice, Blizzards beta and Blizzards game. And really i wouldn't want it any other way.
I get that problem as well, since it's one people tend to ignore when coming up with an idea such as this. I definitely think there should be strict criteria, should this happen, for mappers that are invited by Blizzard into the "Lounge". One idea which comes to mind is to bring in the winners of future TLMC's, assuming it becomes a regular thing with the advent of HotS. Notice there are a lot of assumptions with this theory, so the chances of it happening are slim, but ignoring that, I'd say something along those lines might actually work. But I'm just one person, and something like this needs agreement among many.
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On September 30 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk. This dude is more right than people want to admit. Every modern map plays similarly because the game is only balanced if a lot of conditions are met. The first 3 bases on every modern map are structured out more or less the same. Map makers can get creative with the middle of the map, making interesting attack paths, chokes, and towers. And the artistic design of the maps is obviously very important. But the first 3 bases are always functionally the same, and most games don't go past 3 bases, so the end result is that every map plays out just about the same.
You forgot that maps can't be smaller than a certain size because of 1/1/1.
And you can't change these features because Protoss can't compete in PvZ without that third. You need the ramps because of PvP. The natural needs to be FFE or protoss can't compete.
Only other major thing to tweak is empty drop space where people used to be able to lazily leave a medivac there with no attention or fly mutas in with no threat. I like the trend towards BW style maps where air harass routes have a degree of risk.
The middle architecture is offering something for the moment but as far as I can see Protoss is going to kill map variety for the forseeable future.
edit: Suppose there is also a piece to be said about Rocks at the third.
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On September 30 2012 06:10 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 05:57 Sumadin wrote:
I voted No for this. Don't worry i will tell you why
What defines a "prominent" mapmaker? If i had to pick a word that could describe the SC2 mapmaking scene then "oversaturation" would be one i would choose. The reason is simple, There are being made and presented way more maps than the pro scene could ever use. Should all that posted a map on TL have a spot? No the pro-forums would quickly lose their integrity.
Should it then be the teams then? ESV, TPW or Crux(That is the 3 i know of). But TPW have AFAIK never had a map in any of the large tournements: MLG or GSL nor have they had a spot on ladder. Should that excluse them?
More importantly should Blizzard waste time figuring out a filter for which mapmakers are important enough? No i rather have they spend time on gathering feedback and balancing the game. They already announced that Fractured Glacier are getting taken out of the pool, which frankly even i saw coming.
"But Balance = Unit stats+Maps"
Yea but sometimes if a map would be 100% balanced is not the only important thing. They already addressed that the internal imbalance between players is much higher than any imbalance on the maps. This number is caused due to the relatively low number of players currently in beta. Thus the overall imbalance in the beta would never be much different even if the map pool was actually perfectly balanced. They would never be able to use direct numbers right now and they know it.
Also my impression was never the pro forums was only there to be this secret louge of players who secretly decides the ultimate fate of the balance. My impression was that it was set so pro could give their opinions and show their bias without standing responsible against their fanbase. It is also a place where Blizzard can gather feedback from those they consider more suitable to judge balance than the average player. I am not saying pro mapmakers wouldn't be more suitable than the average player to comment about maps, but there are only so much Blizzard can use that feedback for. They have shown to be aware of conserns with the mappool. Posting same conserns daily on the pro forums won't change that. They have heard you and do know. If they chose to react to those concerns well that is a different story.
But at the end of the day, it is Blizzards choice, Blizzards beta and Blizzards game. And really i wouldn't want it any other way. I get that problem as well, since it's one people tend to ignore when coming up with an idea such as this. I definitely think there should be strict criteria, should this happen, for mappers that are invited by Blizzard into the "Lounge". One idea which comes to mind is to bring in the winners of future TLMC's, assuming it becomes a regular thing with the advent of HotS. Notice there are a lot of assumptions with this theory, so the chances of it happening are slim, but ignoring that, I'd say something along those lines might actually work. But I'm just one person, and something like this needs agreement among many.
Well One of the current winners have already retired from mapmaking. And we won't have another Beta-Pro forum until LOTV. So that is kinda hard.
But i am happy that you see my point. It is harder to mark prominent mapmakers than it is to mark pro players.
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Im gonna shed some light about the private forums since many of you are kind of paranoid about how this private forum works.
It's not about elitism, is not about pros sharing things that would compromise their career if they were written on public forums, is not about being biased because that's their career, it's a place where pros are giving feedback about the usage of units and how the game could develop if the current state goes final, they play a big role in the current patches of the beta because they're giving acurate insights about the game right now and developers can verify that information and fine-tune accordingly.
It would be a good idea to invite some mapmakers to the forum, they could interact both with pros and developers to create more balanced maps and coordinate unit balance with map balance.
To the guy saying that you need to be master+ to be able to make good maps that's simply not true, experienced mapmakers benefit more from their experience than from just being great players, it might seem that there's a correlation between playing and creating, but there isn't, understanding the game does not mean playing like a GSL pro...
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Why don't u make this thread on b.net forums where they can see?
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On October 01 2012 05:19 ReachTheSky wrote:
Why don't u make this thread on b.net forums where they can see?
Can someone with beta create the thread in the HOTS forums?
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On September 30 2012 06:11 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk. This dude is more right than people want to admit. Every modern map plays similarly because the game is only balanced if a lot of conditions are met. The first 3 bases on every modern map are structured out more or less the same. Map makers can get creative with the middle of the map, making interesting attack paths, chokes, and towers. And the artistic design of the maps is obviously very important. But the first 3 bases are always functionally the same, and most games don't go past 3 bases, so the end result is that every map plays out just about the same. You forgot that maps can't be smaller than a certain size because of 1/1/1. And you can't change these features because Protoss can't compete in PvZ without that third. You need the ramps because of PvP. The natural needs to be FFE or protoss can't compete. Only other major thing to tweak is empty drop space where people used to be able to lazily leave a medivac there with no attention or fly mutas in with no threat. I like the trend towards BW style maps where air harass routes have a degree of risk. The middle architecture is offering something for the moment but as far as I can see Protoss is going to kill map variety for the forseeable future. edit: Suppose there is also a piece to be said about Rocks at the third.
summary:
1. maps are bad because of protoss
2. match ups are bad because of protoss
3 the game is bad because of protoss. LOL
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
On September 30 2012 06:11 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk. This dude is more right than people want to admit. Every modern map plays similarly because the game is only balanced if a lot of conditions are met. The first 3 bases on every modern map are structured out more or less the same. Map makers can get creative with the middle of the map, making interesting attack paths, chokes, and towers. And the artistic design of the maps is obviously very important. But the first 3 bases are always functionally the same, and most games don't go past 3 bases, so the end result is that every map plays out just about the same. You forgot that maps can't be smaller than a certain size because of 1/1/1. And you can't change these features because Protoss can't compete in PvZ without that third. You need the ramps because of PvP. The natural needs to be FFE or protoss can't compete. Only other major thing to tweak is empty drop space where people used to be able to lazily leave a medivac there with no attention or fly mutas in with no threat. I like the trend towards BW style maps where air harass routes have a degree of risk. The middle architecture is offering something for the moment but as far as I can see Protoss is going to kill map variety for the forseeable future. edit: Suppose there is also a piece to be said about Rocks at the third.
I can say you're correct to a degree, but I'm not exactly sure of these two points.
There's other ways of stopping warp ins in the main in PvP, one of them could be to have a long, small choke with unbuildable terrain where a pylon could go. Secondly you could have highground either side of the choke (colloseum style) where you can snipe any pylons going down, or just make unbuildable terran again (a severely underused feature of SC2 map making)
And the third thing stands for both races, infact, all three races need a third base, so if you make it slightly harder to get, but easier to defend (say 1 width ramp Fighting Spirit style) that could work pretty well, but nobody in any major tournaments have tried it yet.
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For Blizzard to use so many maps made within the community, but then not include those makers into the pro-only forum seems quite hypocritical to me. Definitely agree with the OP.
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EPT
