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On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps.
Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p
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On September 29 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:39 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 12:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics. K..... You know that both map makers from the community AND from blizzard are not higher then diamond league right? I'm trying to explain to you that from either side of the playing field if the map maker was in masters or higher this wouldn't be an issue. I don't know who makes the map at Blizz HQ so I can't comment on their league placement. I'm having trouble grasping the connection your are trying to make. I want a better map pool and historically, the community map makers create the best maps. Clearly they have some insight/artistry that allows them to create great maps like Cloud Kingdom. I don't see how them being in Diamond makes their mapmaking accomplishments/talents any less useful.
Ok...Your still not getting my point. What I'm trying to say is that the only logical reason the map makers want to be granted access to the pro forum is because they don't know how to make the correct types of maps, simply put if they were better at the game (both community or blizzard, it doesn't actually matter which) then they would have enough experience to know why certain maps are good and why others are not. Its not as simple as just playing any game at any level of play and making a judgement call on a map, the high level games give you high level experience with their respective metagames per map to help understand certain issues with each map so that you can then be objective and try to make a claim of wheather the issues of the map should be corrected or not or maybe they should be kept in place.
And also, I'm pretty sure you can watch most podcasts like ITG or any tournament where players are casting by chance and you can also infer information about maps from those, if not then just using the TL stat page to look at map stats to see where the balance of certain maps lies and then you can play on said maps to understand why the balance is that way and how it can be improved.
All im saying is, instead of giving the map makers a fish, lets teach them to fish for themselves.
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On September 29 2012 13:47 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p
Are you suggesting that Ohana is a perfectly balanced map?
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On September 29 2012 13:52 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:47 Chylith wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p Are you suggesting that Ohana is a perfectly balanced map?
are you suggesting that any of the maps in the current pool are "perfectly" balanced?
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On September 29 2012 14:04 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:52 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:47 Chylith wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p Are you suggesting that Ohana is a perfectly balanced map? are u suggesting that any of the maps in the current pool are "perfectly" balanced?
Meh, daybreak is pretty close.
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On September 29 2012 14:05 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 14:04 Ballistixz wrote:On September 29 2012 13:52 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:47 Chylith wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p Are you suggesting that Ohana is a perfectly balanced map? are u suggesting that any of the maps in the current pool are "perfectly" balanced? Meh, daybreak is pretty close.
day break is a very good map, but it has issues aswell. you dont have to be masters to make great maps. that is pure elitism to even think that.
anyway, my main problem with blizzard maps are A) rocks and B) close positions. a map like entomb would be a pretty decent map if it was cross spawns only. taldarim use to be a god awful map but once they removed the rocks it became a decent map. decent enough for me to take it off my down vote list anyway.
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On September 29 2012 13:51 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 12:39 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 12:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics. K..... You know that both map makers from the community AND from blizzard are not higher then diamond league right? I'm trying to explain to you that from either side of the playing field if the map maker was in masters or higher this wouldn't be an issue. I don't know who makes the map at Blizz HQ so I can't comment on their league placement. I'm having trouble grasping the connection your are trying to make. I want a better map pool and historically, the community map makers create the best maps. Clearly they have some insight/artistry that allows them to create great maps like Cloud Kingdom. I don't see how them being in Diamond makes their mapmaking accomplishments/talents any less useful. Ok...Your still not getting my point. What I'm trying to say is that the only logical reason the map makers want to be granted access to the pro forum is because they don't know how to make the correct types of maps, simply put if they were better at the game (both community or blizzard, it doesn't actually matter which) then they would have enough experience to know why certain maps are good and why others are not. Its not as simple as just playing any game at any level of play and making a judgement call on a map, the high level games give you high level experience with their respective metagames per map to help understand certain issues with each map so that you can then be objective and try to make a claim of wheather the issues of the map should be corrected or not or maybe they should be kept in place. And also, I'm pretty sure you can watch most podcasts like ITG or any tournament where players are casting by chance and you can also infer information about maps from those, if not then just using the TL stat page to look at map stats to see where the balance of certain maps lies and then you can play on said maps to understand why the balance is that way and how it can be improved. All im saying is, instead of giving the map makers a fish, lets teach them to fish for themselves.
You're really not making any sense here. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are implying the map making community wants to get into the HotS pro forum so they can get better at map making? That doesn't make sense because they community map makers are already much better than the blizzard map makers. We are saying we want the map making community to get into the HotS pro forum so they can advise blizzard how to do a better job, so we don't have to deal with a map pool like the one we had at the start of WoL when HotS eventually comes out.
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On September 29 2012 13:52 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:47 Chylith wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. Eehhh...? Ohana (which love it or hate it is a pretty good map) was made by a gold player, I belive. So dunno what you're sayin here. ;p Are you suggesting that Ohana is a perfectly balanced map?
I'm suggesting it's a pretty good map. You'd be hard pressed to find any perfectly balanced map out there.
My point was it's a good enough map that ladder and tournaments both used/use it and it was made by someone far below masters. And it's definitely not the worst map in the current pool by a long stretch.
League/being able to play at a certain level does not indicate that one can make a good map. I'm a decent enough player(masters) and I'd never be able to make anything resembling a good or balanced map(no patience for it for one thing). Most pro players probably can't even make a good map to play on, it's a whole different skillset, and while understanding "okay if I put a ramp here or the third here etc etc.. it'll make it imbalanced for x reason" is important it's not quite the same type of game knowledge one needs to get masters+
The good mapmakers think of things like that, that's what makes them good. I'd think of "Oh, this looks like a good place to abuse some blink stalkers!" but I'd never think of that kind of thing while making a map. ;p
Guess the point I'm trying to make is: offering the high end mapmakers in the community access to the pro forums offers blizzard a good second perspective on balance from a map point of view, something they quite painfully need from the look of things, and it's not something most pro players are really going to bring up. So there's really no reason not to do it imo.
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Well I can tell you for a fact that any serious mapmaker is not going to be super high league no matter what due to the time. Its going to being either full time gamer or full time quality mapper, no inbetweens. Granted the mapper should definitly not being bottem league material it does not take a pros necessarily to make good maps; it is far more important to get feedback from mulitple pros on what they want and what is balanced. Even is the mapper was 1st place gm there will be some measure of race bais and the only way to get around that is to get feedback and get it from a large group ie the pro-locked forums.
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On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk.
there has only ever been 3 maps from this mapping community in the ladder pool, and currently only 2. taldarim was brought into the ladder by blizzard, not the community, unlike cloud kingdom and ohana. people have been complaining about it since that day and hell, only recently have they decided to remove the rocks from the third.
trying to associate the map makers here with the shitfuck terrible maps Blizzard has put out is yes, insulting to the greatest extent. dont try to act like you have any idea what the mapping community here is like.
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That's something the pros should decide.
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On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk.
Hey you know what ? Go make a map yourself. Stop talking about things you don't know.
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Not to be a contrarian, but should the pros have privileged access/lobbying to influence Blizzard? Think about it...the pro's play this game as a career. They are extremely self-interested. Whatever race they are good at playing, they will lobby a bias for and they will have a biased argument against other races getting new units and abilities even if just. They will also lobby for abilities in which they feel gives them a comparative advantage and their competition a comparative disadvantage.
A thought experiment to illustrate. Imagine if SC2 interrupted your game play every two minutes with an annoying whack-a-mole popup. You could only resume control of your units once you whacked 10 moles. Now this could be VERY tedious, boring and unfun. But say pro X can do this in a quarter of the time as his competition. Blizzard considers removing this. Will this pro argue for or against this? Clearly he will argue for leaving it in the game because it is in his self-interest. It gives him a competitive advantage that allows him to pay the bills.
Those who have read about economics and books like freakonomics will understand what I'm saying...basically pros have a conflict of interest in providing unbiased advice and have little personal incentive to create a fun and engaging game which should be the primary, secondary and tertiary goal of blizzard.
I would not be surprised if most advice were to be followed on this privileged forum, if the game quickly reverted back into WOL (because that is what pro's are naturally good at...so they will subconsciously argue for nerfs of the other races into this direction).
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On September 29 2012 22:58 Fungal Growth wrote:
Not to be a contrarian, but should the pros have privileged access/lobbying to influence Blizzard? Think about it...the pro's play this game as a career. They are extremely self-interested. Whatever race they are good at playing, they will lobby a bias for and they will have a biased argument against other races getting new units and abilities even if just. They will also lobby for abilities in which they feel gives them a comparative advantage and their competition a comparative disadvantage.
As long as the pros-only forum has pros from all 3 races represented in approximately equal numbers, this won't be a problem.
Those who have read about economics and books like freakonomics will understand what I'm saying...basically pros have a conflict of interest in providing unbiased advice and have little personal incentive to create a fun and engaging game which should be the primary, secondary and tertiary goal of blizzard.
SC2 was intended from the start to be an e-sport. Making HotS fun and engaging to watch is just as important as making it fun and engaging to play.
I would not be surprised if most advice were to be followed on this privileged forum, if the game quickly reverted back into WOL (because that is what pro's are naturally good at...so they will subconsciously argue for nerfs of the other races into this direction).
This is only true if the pros were actually satisfied with WoL. Most of them don't seem to be.
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On September 29 2012 14:12 Ballistixz wrote:
A map like entomb would be a pretty decent map if it was cross spawns only.
Entombed Valley is freaking god-awful. There's no way to apply pressure until your opponent takes his fourth base, and it's pretty damn easy to defend up to 6 bases without going out in the open or spreading your forces too thin. It plays like BGH.
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On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk.
This dude is more right than people want to admit. Every modern map plays similarly because the game is only balanced if a lot of conditions are met. The first 3 bases on every modern map are structured out more or less the same. Map makers can get creative with the middle of the map, making interesting attack paths, chokes, and towers. And the artistic design of the maps is obviously very important. But the first 3 bases are always functionally the same, and most games don't go past 3 bases, so the end result is that every map plays out just about the same.
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On September 29 2012 13:51 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 12:39 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 12:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. And yet the community maps are consistently better than Blizzard maps, in both gameplay and aesthetics. K..... You know that both map makers from the community AND from blizzard are not higher then diamond league right? I'm trying to explain to you that from either side of the playing field if the map maker was in masters or higher this wouldn't be an issue. I don't know who makes the map at Blizz HQ so I can't comment on their league placement. I'm having trouble grasping the connection your are trying to make. I want a better map pool and historically, the community map makers create the best maps. Clearly they have some insight/artistry that allows them to create great maps like Cloud Kingdom. I don't see how them being in Diamond makes their mapmaking accomplishments/talents any less useful. Ok...Your still not getting my point. What I'm trying to say is that the only logical reason the map makers want to be granted access to the pro forum is because they don't know how to make the correct types of maps, simply put if they were better at the game (both community or blizzard, it doesn't actually matter which) then they would have enough experience to know why certain maps are good and why others are not. Its not as simple as just playing any game at any level of play and making a judgement call on a map, the high level games give you high level experience with their respective metagames per map to help understand certain issues with each map so that you can then be objective and try to make a claim of wheather the issues of the map should be corrected or not or maybe they should be kept in place. And also, I'm pretty sure you can watch most podcasts like ITG or any tournament where players are casting by chance and you can also infer information about maps from those, if not then just using the TL stat page to look at map stats to see where the balance of certain maps lies and then you can play on said maps to understand why the balance is that way and how it can be improved. All im saying is, instead of giving the map makers a fish, lets teach them to fish for themselves.
It's pretty clear you don't actually understand what it's like for us. You're not the only one, I've actually read more ignorant posts regarding mapmakers on battle.net. No, we don't want access to the pro-forum to improve our mapmaking, that like so much other stuff I've read on the subject just sounds ignorant. We want contact with Blizzard to create a better situation regarding the maps all of you play on. Also, league is actually irrelevant, what matters is understanding of the game, which is totally different. If you think mapmaking is so simple, come on by and dominate the scene, I'd love to see some new talent. You complain that most maps play the same, and then(apparently) attribute that to the mapmakers. Consider for a moment that it might have something to do with the design and balance of the game. Come to understand the situation better, then talk.
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Let the map makers in blizzard, there are the backbone of the community without great maps we don't get to experience epic games.I don't make maps but respect those with the creativity to do so......just let them in already
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On September 30 2012 02:36 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 13:42 Asymptote1 wrote:On September 29 2012 13:28 Veloh15 wrote:On September 29 2012 11:54 Asymptote1 wrote:
If the map makers themselves were higher then diamond then they would just have enough game knowledge to be able to make maps better.....Just saying. Obviously you can't expect them to be pros but still, once you hit high enough in masters you can pretty much understand all their really is to know about maps. As a map maker you are completely wrong, and it is insulting to say that there is so little depth to map making. And yet the best maps in the map pool right now have a lack of depth, they only require a couple concepts in order to be fair: A) Fairly close third so that protoss can get it B) Not repeating the Antiga mistake of having the architecture leding itself so handily to gimmicks (blink/drops) C) Not repeating the other Antiga mistake of having the center of the map being TOO important. D) Always having a ramp up/down your main base (unlike Bel'Shir beach and Tal'Darim which were terrible) Other then that its pretty much EZPZ as far as the conceptual standpoint of map making in their current form. You can be insulted all you want, but at the end of the day its been proven that the worst maps in the pool have been ones that tried to over complicate simple concepts, whereas the ones that keep it simple and clean like daybreak are much better for play. So theres no need to cry over spilt milk. This dude is more right than people want to admit. Every modern map plays similarly because the game is only balanced if a lot of conditions are met. The first 3 bases on every modern map are structured out more or less the same. Map makers can get creative with the middle of the map, making interesting attack paths, chokes, and towers. And the artistic design of the maps is obviously very important. But the first 3 bases are always functionally the same, and most games don't go past 3 bases, so the end result is that every map plays out just about the same.
Map making community biased and pressured by the community, because if zerg can't get free 3rd base, they'll veto it.
See TDA. It's partially the fault of players as well for not expanding their styles of play to fit more than one style of map.
People centralized to one way of playing the game. Then a lot of people did. Then people vetoed maps where you can't do that strategy. Then the map makers promote that same strategy in new maps... Because if they didn't, it wouldn't be accepted, liked, played on, etc.
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I voted No for this. Don't worry i will tell you why
What defines a "prominent" mapmaker? If i had to pick a word that could describe the SC2 mapmaking scene then "oversaturation" would be one i would choose. The reason is simple, There are being made and presented way more maps than the pro scene could ever use. Should all that posted a map on TL have a spot? No the pro-forums would quickly lose their integrity.
Should it then be the teams then? ESV, TPW or Crux(That is the 3 i know of). But TPW have AFAIK never had a map in any of the large tournements: MLG or GSL nor have they had a spot on ladder. Should that excluse them?
More importantly should Blizzard waste time figuring out a filter for which mapmakers are important enough? No i rather have they spend time on gathering feedback and balancing the game. They already announced that Fractured Glacier are getting taken out of the pool, which frankly even i saw coming.
"But Balance = Unit stats+Maps"
Yea but sometimes if a map would be 100% balanced is not the only important thing. They already addressed that the internal imbalance between players is much higher than any imbalance on the maps. This number is caused due to the relatively low number of players currently in beta. Thus the overall imbalance in the beta would never be much different even if the map pool was actually perfectly balanced. They would never be able to use direct numbers right now and they know it.
Also my impression was never the pro forums was only there to be this secret louge of players who secretly decides the ultimate fate of the balance. My impression was that it was set so pro could give their opinions and show their bias without standing responsible against their fanbase. It is also a place where Blizzard can gather feedback from those they consider more suitable to judge balance than the average player. I am not saying pro mapmakers wouldn't be more suitable than the average player to comment about maps, but there are only so much Blizzard can use that feedback for. They have shown to be aware of conserns with the mappool. Posting same conserns daily on the pro forums won't change that. They have heard you and do know. If they chose to react to those concerns well that is a different story.
But at the end of the day, it is Blizzards choice, Blizzards beta and Blizzards game. And really i wouldn't want it any other way.
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EPT
