EPTHotS Balance Update #4 [9/28/12] - Page 10
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
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Mackus
England1681 Posts
On September 29 2012 11:21 Natengall wrote: False speculation. I tested it out. The new mothership core kills off a queen with 55 health left. That means it would only be able to kill off one queen, before it takes enough hull damage and unable to kill another. Keep in mind that the MS-core deals 8 dmg per shot with a weapon speed of 0.85, while a queen deals 4 damage a shot at a weapon speed of 1. Also, the mothership core is perfect for denying overlords now and keeping zergs in the dark. Interesting thing to note: the mothership core can also solo a single stalker. The Mothership Core attack is ground-only so either I'm missing something or you're telling lies. I suspect the latter. | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:17 kcdc wrote: Because the game will be designed and balanced around purify defending your natural. Think about it this way--let's pretend they added XNC to the current map pool. All the maps except XNC would allow P to FFE or 1 gate FE vs Z except XNC. On XNC, P has to 3 gate sentry expand and immediately follow the nexus with a forge and 2 cannons. The game is balanced around FFE economy, so on XNC, P has to 1-base all-in or just accept that they're starting way behind. If HOTS is balanced assuming a purify expand, every map where it's not possible is going to suck. So over time, there won't be any. It's also balanced for terran and zerg this way, not simply protoss alone. on XNC, zerg holding their own natural was pretty rough because of the surface area around the base, as well as the three attack routes leading into the natural. It became difficult to take a third as well. Terran, likes to wall against zerg as well btw (terran don't have forges, but they have marines and bunkers). The proximity of bases and the ability to hold onto them has evolved because of the way the metagame has evolved. Builds now exist to shut down these early pressures that make holding the Natural so hard on the older maps. That one base play has been figured out, and players are now playing by opening 2base standard, with one base now being the all-in amount of bases. Holding one base all ins has lead to the development of 2base, and 3+ base play. Maps wont be designed around purify expand. Toss will have to adapt. Making maps that are following old standards like XNC, just wouldn't make sense for the way the game is currently played. Pushing the players back to one base tactics, multi-gate (multi-rax) expands isn't very practical for anyone. Playing older styles of play is still valid, but with the development of better timings, these old styles of play are more easily shut down. They can now be held with more economic play and better micro-skills. I expand routinely off of one gate against terran, and manage, with good timings, to hold builds i used to hold on 3gate expands when season one and two were around. The simple trade off is a little more risk for a way better economy. I simply need to be able to micro to hold these pushes. Sure, Some maps are harder to forge fast on than others, but it is still doable. Abusing the fact that a forge fast is difficult for protoss on certain maps comes with a risk. If your six-ten pool utterly fails on, lets say antiga or on one of the new HOTS maps, your going to be very far behind. If blizzard balances things around purify, then their idiots. They've done an alright job so far. If they never changed Antiga simply because seige tanks could shell a main base from the close by air third, they likely wont design things around purify. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:27 734pot wrote: There is also similar consideration in other areas when designing maps. For example ramp mechanics seem to be the way they are right now to adjust PvP and to some extent ZvZ. There are some mechanics that are very map dependent, which is a good thing, as it gives map makers more of an opportunity to adjust both balance and gameplay. It really feels to me like every modern map plays exactly the same for the first 15 minutes. The only maps in the current ladder pool that play differently are TDA (no ramp into main, unusual third), Daybreak (third is much farther from natural than on modern maps, hard to defend with sentries against Z) and Antiga (easily accessed triple-threat position where you can hit the nat or third by ground or drop the main makes it hard for P to take third vs T and Z). Notably, these are the three oldest maps in the pool, and P has a hard time taking a third on all three. P's complete lack of map strength in the 8-12 minute period forces every WoL map to be the same. It sucks. | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
Mothership Core Purify has been changed to the following: Purify can now only be cast on your Nexus at max 10 range. Once cast, the mothership core will attach itself to the Nexus, transforming into a weapon with range 10. While attached to the Nexus, the mothership core will be unable to cast abilities and regenerate energy. The damage of Purify has been lowered to 20 and can attack both air and ground units. Purify will last until cancelled. in other words purify is now just a range 10 cannon. cool... | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:49 Havik_ wrote: From the looks of things, its like the took away some options from Protoss. Is that really what needs to be done when Toss already has the fewest options and worst units in this expansion??? It would be nice to see another new unit. I'm still not getting much out of the tempest, regardless of where I use it. Oracle is shaping up nicely now. But still. Overall, i agree. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On September 29 2012 07:51 HelloSon wrote: "The duration of Activate Mine has been decreased to 2 sec." what does this mean? takes less channeling time from mine to attacking? | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again. Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing? | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On September 29 2012 09:58 RaiKageRyu wrote: I'm not saying this is bad for the game nor am I stating I like this change of direction. But damn man, Protoss is in essence War3 more than ever. I know, it's so glorious! ♥ | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice. I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again. Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing? Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:22 Buchan wrote: I really don't understand what they are trying to accomplish with 2 supply widow mines... You want Terran players to make fields of defensive mines that cost 2 supply? Terran already has the weakest late game army we don't need 10-20+ supply caught up in almost useless defensive mines. If I want to set up a defense as Terran I will make missile turrets and planetaries like I always have. Then again I haven't played the beta yet but I just don't see widow mines becoming a "staple unit" until they are either layed by the hellion or made 1 supply. The widow mine should be an early to mid game unit just as in the real world. When militaries suspect in immenent invasion, they lay mines while they rally their tanks to the front. I support the move of 2 as it deters going mass WM (160 WM?!) late game which given its current set of abilities would allow it to wipe a 200/200 army off the map for simply walking over it. At 2 supply, a Terran would have to sac the mines to make way for the late game composition. A good HOTS player would then attempt to trick his oppenent's army to walk over the mines. Then boom wipe out!!! | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:00 734pot wrote: Why is it going to be 4 gate every game? Its not 4 gate every game in WoL I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason. | ||
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Axeltl
Finland48 Posts
Well that escalated quickly. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:58 playa wrote: Can't find the motivation to play after this patch. So, is there anyway this helps defend against 4 gate? To me it doesn't look like it, and really that's the thing I care most about. Game is going to be worthless if it's 4 gate vs 4 gate every game or some ridic all-in. Pick your choice. I can't believe people were losing to a recall in their base. The core moves so slow... how can you not kill it or know it's coming. And to get it there in time, you had to of expo'd before them, so you should have more units than them by the time it happens. I dunno, it sucks that because 1 race may be adversely effected that you have to be nerfed, as if there's really no better alternatives. To me, recall simply made blink stalkers more interesting. Back to never getting blink again. Some people are calling this a buff. What am I missing? They'll tune the cost and stats so that you can expo in PvP. This is a design fix--they'll tweak the numbers in the next couple patches. | ||
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Axeltl
Finland48 Posts
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:02 playa wrote: I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason. Warp in on highground is still out right? 4gate won't be a factor in hots if it is | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
You can get a mothership core to 1v1 a queen, the core wins. And by the time it gets to a zerg base it should have enough energy for a recall. Awesome pressure forcing 2 queens at main hatch? Or stupid oversight by blizzard? | ||
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JSRazor
United States17 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:02 playa wrote: I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason. I have a protoss friend who also has access into the beta. We're going to try, extensively, the most popular existing builds with the MCore changes. I'll update in this thread on what we find. So far, pvp hasn't been that bad. Blink is being used a little more once again, and 4gates tend to be more or less the same. Purify has actually helped with early timings, like the tin man build, or the 10 supply gateway version. This is because you can use purify to help defend your probes when your opponent fails to win the engagement and charges the mineral line. Some all ins are set back too much by 100-100 cost to justify bringing it with you to deal dmg. From what i've experienced so far with the 4gate, you need to be spot on with your macro and build order to make it work if you want bring a MCore with you. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
On September 29 2012 14:02 playa wrote: I see you have a zerg icon for a reason. I guess you have 4 gate and then there's 3 gate, colossi into 4 gate all-in. P vs P improved a lot with that last change. To jeopardize that... it better be for a good reason. No need to be condescending. You never actually responded about why you think that it will be 4 gate every game. I watch a fair amount of PvP and I've hardly seen 4 gate at all recently, actually, I've seen a fair few fast expands and double gas before core tech builds so I'm not sure why the metagame will revert to 4 gate in HotS, thus I am curious as to why you think that it will. | ||
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