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On September 29 2012 15:59 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 15:42 neoghaleon55 wrote:the new MSCore is stupid in PvZ It's guaranteed to always kill the first queen. + Show Spoiler +It's too early a flyer. Actually the zerg has 2 queen pop out to defend but MC was definitely will put out some damage on the first queen. I was surprised with it's 1.8 movement speed. It has pretty decent movement speed. All in all though, this is pretty bad. MC was supposed to be a defensive unit but it it turned out it can be a light pressure-esque unit in the early game lol. MC has got a lot of utility now actually. It can scout,clear watch towers as seen in the video,etc. I am expecting changes to the MC again.
I'm pretty ok with it. Protoss really did need a way to put on early game pressure without going completely all in, so I'm glad the Mothership Core can fill that role.
Also, even if you do kill a Queen, the Protoss is stuck on one base. They didn't FEE, they rushed for a Core. So, I don't really see that being a problem, it puts Protoss's macro way behind in exchange for 1 queen and some scouting. If the queen really is guaranteed to die that's a problem, but making sure you get 2 queens ASAP and it looks like it will be a pretty close defense from Zerg.
Edit: didn't read the changes closely enough. Auto-attack on the Core is lame, I thought it was a mini-purify that was castable. So yeah, one step in the right direction, one in the wrong.
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On September 29 2012 08:05 Sabu113 wrote:
They gutted the recall ;(. Now we just have the mothership moved from the stargate to the nex.
Eh, the MS was always on the nexus...
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On September 29 2012 17:37 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 08:05 Sabu113 wrote:
They gutted the recall ;(. Now we just have the mothership moved from the stargate to the nex. Eh, the MS was always on the nexus...
Ok should have phrased it as the expensive mothership isn't as useful anymore.
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I just realised from reading this thread that people will never be happy with the Mothership Core, hating on the state of the mothership core has become the new hating Justin Bieber.
1. I believe the community voiced that they wanted more flexibility in protoss units. We got this, it's either a light-harass unit, who can't really do much damage (you can micro away your drones\scv and bring AA units). Or, it's a decent, but not too strong base defender. Also, if the light harass forces a tumor out of zerg, or an extra marine before CC, that's freakin good. Zerg macro mechanics have often been said to be too strong, or too expansive, I believe Genius said this in a interview. And for terrans, mules. (enough said) The margin of error for holding an all-in after expand was in WoL much lower for Protoss compared to Terran, this balances out the advantages given by the bunker\repair, without being too strong (Old purify sort of snapped the neck of a 3rax stim pretty easily.)
2. For people saying that it is too expensive, it's not. If you use energize, you can effectively skip a sentry or two, which makes up for the gas cost. It's not about having the most cost effective unit, it's about having choices and flexibility. Mothership allows for both offensive and defensive plays.
Also, Auto-attack is fine, takes 5-6 shots to kill a drone, and you can micro the drone away fairly quickly. MsC is very good for scouting expansions, which is good for protoss. Recall is good too. I like how it could punish a greedy terran by avoiding the bunkers, but it is too strong. Warp prism elevators with MsC support should make the strategy slightly more efficient than in WoL. MsC also makes zealot harass stronger. In WoL zealot harass was really easy to shut down, and usually in a cost-effective way as Zerglings are generally useful throughout the mid-game, while zealots lose their efficiency if the zerg goes roaches.
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Interesting. I don't think the auto-attack will be used that much for base harass, since 2 queens can take it easily. Probably only useful against early Zerglings.
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On September 29 2012 15:56 bittman wrote:I don't think it's the flying, it's the damage from the flying unit. With the speed and an auto-attack they've stopped it being a super powerful all-in unit and made it a super early air harass unit. That has it's own issues as shown from all the void ray nerfs that occured in WoL because they come out early-ish. I think the new auto-attack is silly. Take out the attack. It doesn't seem to fit the design of the unit.
It is the flying aspect of the unit combined with the fact that it has an attack (which it should, since the mothership has an attack). Personally I think it is a terrible idea to give such an early flying AND casting unit the super powerful spells it has. You cant reduce the effect of recall (well you could reduce the affected radius, but in the very beginning there are only very few units to recall, so it doesnt balance the spell) or make it less powerful, so the only option is removing it. The whole "early flying unit vs Zerg" aspect is a big problem, because it is an untouchable base defender and anything that is invulnerable is very very bad.
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The whole HotS unit design comes across at being worthy of a DLC download, but not an expansion and certainly not a full price expansion. It is all pretty screwed up and mostly terrible in its design.
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like all the changes on the MC except the recall thing. MC should stay at home to defend or recall FROM the home base. so it allows small groups of P units to freely move on the map and be saved by recall if needed. now it is still good offensively but worse at recalling since MC is slower than zealots/stalker/sentry. why not just make it recall from the home base and let it be superslow so it cant be used offensively?! think they will change that again.
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On September 29 2012 15:41 FlukyS wrote:
The mothership core is seriously annoying now. Played 1 game and really don't want to play against it again. Its now a gimmicky unit to aid in early all ins to make them not all in any more. Its not expensive, builds fast, it does damage, it saves expensive units and it is nice for defense (which I actually support) the problem is there is no downside. The entire problem I have with it now is that it encourages the Protoss to go gate first get up the mothership core and go do damage because the Zerg has nothing that can deal with it well.
By the time it gets across the map to my base it already pretty much has a recall and you should only have 2 queens. You can kill the mothership core if it was alone but accompany it was Zealots and/or stalkers and you can either kill the Zerg or force them into a really really bad positon economically while the Protoss can recall back if things get too hot. And then in the meantime the Zerg has a crippled economy and the Protoss can expand behind it because they still have units and they now have the purify cannon to help with the defense.
All in all its an idiotic change and it will be changed to something different next week when they realise it.
I don't have access to the beta, so can you explain to me how this is different to the previous patch where Protoss could all-in with the mothership core at home for Recall? Why does this "make all-ins not all-in any more (than it previous did)"?
On September 29 2012 18:04 Decendos wrote:
like all the changes on the MC except the recall thing. MC should stay at home to defend or recall FROM the home base. so it allows small groups of P units to freely move on the map and be saved by recall if needed. now it is still good offensively but worse at recalling since MC is slower than zealots/stalker/sentry. why not just make it recall from the home base and let it be superslow so it cant be used offensively?! think they will change that again.
It seems like mid to late game recalls will be rarity, but early to mid should still be ok. Protoss units can already escape from Terran own their own, whilst Zerg won't have the anti-air to deal with the Mothership Core.
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Won't MC now deny scouting with overlords? It's pretty fast compared to overlords and has it's own cannon.
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these changes are absolutely fantastic.. i love all of it except locust range buff... but whatever 
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On September 29 2012 18:22 Tuczniak wrote:
Won't MC now deny scouting with overlords? It's pretty fast compared to overlords and has it's own cannon.
I think the auto attack only targets ground. If it did target air that would be hilarious.
I think the auto attack should be removed.
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I don't follow HOTS progress so much , but let me make this straight , terran gets only widow mines as the new unit , while other units get small improvements and upgrades ? Seems underwhelming , though what protoss gets in HOTS seem boring as well .
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i honestly dont like how they make protoss so dependent on the mothership core because imo it will only further motivate protoss players to have their whole army together(near the mothership core).
also i dont understand how this should fix its offensive capabilities. i feel like it is even stronger now.
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I like the changes to the mothership core. More of a defensive focus instead of being a superslow energizing Arbiter with no cloak. More flexibility in your decision making is always better for the game.
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On September 29 2012 08:23 Belha wrote:
I honestly do not understand how the hell Blizz plan their units.
Is like they throw just cool stuff, create a unit, then see what happens (yeah, i know Browder said that this is exactly how they design the units, which is just hilariously dumb).
Mothership core was supposed to be a unique unit with certain defensive/harass roles. Ok
Now they are turning it into a battle support unit. Wtf.
Is like, zero planning at all. Of curse not zero, but meaningless planning for sure.
Actually, it's the only way to design for interactivity -- plan, test, and revise. You can plan all you want in the world but all all good design is the result of an iterative process.
Only stupid people or bad designers think otherwise. If you want you want to see what games look like when you don't test and experiment with ideas, there's a whole world of shitty social games, MMOs and RTS you can play other than Starcraft.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On September 29 2012 18:22 Tuczniak wrote:
Won't MC now deny scouting with overlords? It's pretty fast compared to overlords and has it's own cannon.
M-Core repulsor cannon can't atack air
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On September 29 2012 18:51 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 08:23 Belha wrote:
I honestly do not understand how the hell Blizz plan their units.
Is like they throw just cool stuff, create a unit, then see what happens (yeah, i know Browder said that this is exactly how they design the units, which is just hilariously dumb).
Mothership core was supposed to be a unique unit with certain defensive/harass roles. Ok
Now they are turning it into a battle support unit. Wtf.
Is like, zero planning at all. Of curse not zero, but meaningless planning for sure. Actually, it's the only way to design for interactivity -- plan, test, and revise. You can plan all you want in the world but all all good design is the result of an iterative process. Only stupid people or bad designers think otherwise. If you want you want to see what games look like when you don't test and experiment with ideas, there's a whole world of shitty social games, MMOs and RTS you can play other than Starcraft.
Wrong. You can have an idea of what types of units would work well. Then you try and design them and put them into the game. Test them. Receive feedback. Slightly rework them. Receive more feedback --> Balance them etc.
The above process wil give you a much better designed game, as the units fulfill a certain role in the game.
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They forgot to nerf warhounds more.
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Take the game in a direction that encourages fighting even fairly early on.
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On September 29 2012 18:14 Akinokaze wrote:
I don't have access to the beta, so can you explain to me how this is different to the previous patch where Protoss could all-in with the mothership core at home for Recall? Why does this "make all-ins not all-in any more (than it previous did)"?
The changes in this patch made the mothership core faster and added a base attack that has low ish damage but its good enough to kill a queen 1v1. It can get across the map to the opponents base fast ish that it can hit with a 4 gate and warp gate. Recall has been changed so that the mothership core and units close to it get teleported back to a nexus rather than the old way where you recall to the mothership core.
All these changes make it so that the mothership core is an offensive unit with some defensive abilities. How it makes it more all in is because now its not only free dps for the all in but if you try punish it by attacking their base while they are away they can recall back, if you hold the push rather than get punished by losing all their units they can recall back too. Before Protoss players used to forge fe in HotS but now they don't even have to do that because they have a pretty much free cannon which does fuck tons of damage.
The old one was fine ish if you added the new attach to the nexus cannon thing which I find perfectly fine. The issue is the base attack, move speed, build time and the cost. If lets say the base speed is half of what it is now or the base attack was removed but they left the cannon or the build time was tripled or the cost was doubled I would be entirely fine with it. Its just the combo of everything that makes it stupid.
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EPT
