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travdood
United States58 Posts
A couple things: your information is a little dated. Preordain is gone. Check the NOTE I originally put after #2 in Successful Strategies brah. Outside of that, yeah I'm starting to see the bigger argument. So thoughts? Scrap it? Give is AoE splash? Raise damage and lower range? What are people saying would be a proper fix? | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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travdood
United States58 Posts
As i said before, i'm not smart saying this, is pretty freaking obvious. But it pisses me off that some guy with no idea about the real game (the game where tempest suck, where we all knew the warhound was op even with the before beta stats and so on), talks like if he just discover the Americas. Whoa, mucho take it easy buddy. If this gets under your skin I'd hate to see how real problems make you feel... It pisses me off one thing is just discussing about the unit, but you are CLAIMING that you understand more than the average people! Whoa whoa whoa...first off I appreciate you thinking so highly of me, but I would not consider everyone as the "average" people. "Overall player base" I think is more accurate. No one is above anyone on BNet. No need to demean them now. I just felt that this type of unit is very similar to units in other RTS games I've played. Those games are not NEARLY as popular as SC2. So I would assume that most players haven't had as much exposure to those units because they haven't played or were not as into games like LOTR: BFME II or RA3. As someone with experience with these, I merely felt that I was seeing something that the general public in SC2 had not seen before. Without the other RTS games to give me that past exposure to these kind of units, I would have probably been in the same boat as everyone else. | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On September 20 2012 16:23 stard1n wrote: Considering it takes roughly about 30 seconds to kill 5 marines with a tempest, i would say those statements are just very wrong... If you're aiming at the marines, you're doing it wrong. Shoot the medivacs or the vikings. | ||
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travdood
United States58 Posts
On September 20 2012 17:10 gedatsu wrote: If you're aiming at the marines, you're doing it wrong. Shoot the medivacs or the vikings. OMG! THANK YOU! I was just about to respond to this one saying the same thing. | ||
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ItWhoSpeaks
United States362 Posts
On September 20 2012 16:09 Rabiator wrote: The Tempest is a terrible unit design, because it a) POTENTIALLY allows to be very destructive without any risk, b) forces an opponent to build a disproportionate amount of air units (depending on the map) and c) can totally suck if it is too expensive or too weak. The first argument alone is a terrible thing to have for a game such as Starcraft and Protoss can give vision very very easily (just use a hallucinated Phoenix) for free and thus risk nothing on their own side. If you have just a few Stalkers underneath the Tempests you can kill a pretty big number of flying units which are sent out to get rid of the Tempests and that is a terrible thing. Due to the super long range and the flying aspect of the unit it is required to send flyers after them on certain maps, because there will be ledges which can be used "cleverly" to defend them against ground units. Thus we get to the last point and thats the actual core of the problem (combined with the first), because you will get a balance of the unit to "make it fair" and this will result in it being either too weak or too strong with no middle ground, just like the Void Rays were balanced to be not used anymore nowadays. The game is made to be non-flying-armies and that sucks, but it practically requires any flyers to be nerfed to "not worth it" status. Hmmmm, I think that isn't entirely fair as you can say the same thing about the BW siege tank vs P or Z a. The siege tank can be retardedly powerful without any risk if you abuse cliffs chokes and other terrain features. b. you force your opponent to either attack, give ground, or risk over committing on key units to counter them (Like mutas or BW carriers). c. Tanks in WoL have been flirting with being bad for their cost for some time. The Tempest is not terrible unit design, because it is not that different from any long range, low mobility unit save for its lack of splash. The concerns of binary gameplay are largely reduced with its reduced range of 15 instead of 22 given that you can actually close with vikings and vipers now. Frankly, if it is made to be a bit more fragile, the Tempest should end up being a really fun and skillful unit. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On September 20 2012 19:12 []Phase[] wrote: hmph I still dont like the unit _AT ALL_, even if it becomes more efficient. It seems like a unit with the sole purpose of pissing people off AND motivating people to go deathball. If its used on top of some cliffs for long range harassment id like it, because then its not part of the deathball, but the OP obv sees it way more effective when put inside a deathball aswell. It's the Protoss version of a catapult. Why did our ancestors use the absurdly costly to build and maintain catapul that takes forever to fire? Simple. Unfair advantage. Lower tech armies (barbarians) couldn't reach with their javelins and arrows. Lowering casualties, while increasing the enemy's injuries. They were forced to engage on the Roman army's terms, not on theirs. | ||
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eMGmoG
Switzerland244 Posts
the poor gameplay design, with overpowered bio dps and therefore overpowered AE (colossus, fungals, storms) lead to such units, but it wont solve the problem. the problem is not the tempest, and its balance, its the core gameplay design, pathing, minerals per minute, mules, injects and all that fundamental stuff. | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On September 20 2012 21:23 eMGmoG wrote: the tempest is a boring, stupid unit. if you cant attack an army, because its stronger than yours, what sense does it make to put a unit in the game to force you to such an engagement?i dont get it. i mean in standard TvP, if your terran and you cant attack protoss directly or you will die and the protoss has tempest so you have to attack, how stupid is that? its and addition to the protoss deathball because the toss deathball is so damn strong and you want your enemy to attack you. it forces the deathball play. the poor gameplay design, with overpowered bio dps and therefore overpowered AE (colossus, fungals, storms) lead to such units, but it wont solve the problem. the problem is not the tempest, and its balance, its the core gameplay design, pathing, minerals per minute, mules, injects and all that fundamental stuff. You force him to engage in another position. A position where your army is stronger than his. | ||
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eMGmoG
Switzerland244 Posts
On September 20 2012 21:38 gedatsu wrote: You force him to engage in another position. A position where your army is stronger than his. sorry but this seems to me like RTS for 7 year olds. i do this, you have to do that. i do that, you have to do this. there should be always multiple options in most of the situations. thats where the skill of strong players shines; how they decide what when to do. thats what makes good RTS fun to watch and play. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
They should start by nerfing Protoss things that are too good overall and too easy to use before they can add other units. As it stands, in most situations more of something else (Collossi...) could do the same job better. The tempest might end up being a situational unit that people only use against broodlords. You give that unit to Terran or Zerg and I'm sure they would love it. But for Protoss it's just something that takes money out of the deathball. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On September 20 2012 22:03 eMGmoG wrote: sorry but this seems to me like RTS for 7 year olds. i do this, you have to do that. i do that, you have to do this. there should be always multiple options in most of the situations. thats where the skill of strong players shines; how they decide what when to do. thats what makes good RTS fun to watch and play. Forcing someone else to engage on your terms is RTS for 7 year olds? What the hell are you even talking about? "there should always be multiple options in most of the situations". There is. You can sit back and take the damage, you can attack knowing the risk you are taking a fight that doesn't favor you OR move your army around in a way that it ends up favoring you, or you do your own harass in order to gain ground. I really don't understand why people are saying tempests are skill-less boring deathball units when they are literally the absolute opposite and are exactly what sc2 needs in order to become a better spectator experience. | ||
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hocash
United States82 Posts
On September 20 2012 12:11 Belha wrote: Your analysis is totally low levelish, or you have no idea about toss play, anyways, low level toss. The cost of the Tempest and tempest tech is just too much for real competitive play. Cost in money, and tempo. If you go to tempest, and you in even foot with your opponent (in case you're ahead, the tempest then is irrelevant), the the cost and tempo to develop/fund the tech is just insanelly high (again, in a high level game, this is just freaking obvious for any serious toss player). And the last, but not the less important fact, is the total lack of punch, aka impact once it appears in the game. Ok you warped in 2 tempests, so you invested a lot in those 2 flagships, so what? Of curse that with such investment you have to play defensive. The tempest is just a weak unit for fights. Weak as fuck. For terrans, once medivacs come into play, then is a huge improve for infantry. Once stim comes into play, is a big hit. Once siege tanks are up, is very important. Same once protoss get the first collosus vs those infantry pushes, is "the wall" vs those attacks, same for storms, huge investment, big impact. Same for dts, same for those first 10-12 mutas, those infestors with fungal, those broods. What make them hit the board with such presence? You make a huge investment, survived, and now you have a turning weapon for any battle. Tempest? Nope. Not at all. Dps less than an hidra but at an insane cost (again, not talking about the 300/300 only). As i said before, i'm not smart saying this, is pretty freaking obvious. But it pisses me off that some guy with no idea about the real game (the game where tempest suck, where we all knew the warhound was op even with the before beta stats and so on), talks like if he just discover the Americas. It pisses me off one thing is just discussing about the unit, but you are CLAIMING that you understand more than the average people! TLDR: Tempest right now SUCKS. Due how protoss works, THERE IS NO TEMPO IN AN EVEN GAME TO USE THE TEMPEST. LOL you are a tool. First, the tone of your response is just idiotic. Let's start there. But on a substantive level, you don't know jack shit about how this unit will be balanced in the retail version. It could take up less supply (likely) or get it's range back. It's a fucking beta, moron. They put the unit out there so people will test it. As the OP said, it's great for forcing engagements. And even if your army is down 18 supply because you have 3 tempests doesn't mean you auto lose. If zerg attacks into a choke they are no favorite with force fields and splash damage. The bonus damage to massive means brood lords have to be very careful. The tempest is designed to force late game engagement instead of two deathballs jockeying for position and it actually does the trick. You're a fucking moron. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:46 travdood wrote: Advantages Gained 1. Reward Without Risk no unit should fall under this category. bad, bad game design. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
On September 20 2012 22:03 eMGmoG wrote: sorry but this seems to me like RTS for 7 year olds. i do this, you have to do that. i do that, you have to do this. there should be always multiple options in most of the situations. thats where the skill of strong players shines; how they decide what when to do. thats what makes good RTS fun to watch and play. dude what are you even talking about- there are multiple options for any given scenario at any time, tempests dont FORCE you to do anything the whole idea is to take advantage of positional advantages, which takes skill to do. dont really know where your going with your arguement | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On September 21 2012 00:53 a176 wrote: no unit should fall under this category. bad, bad game design. it's more like, very little reward with little risk, just like the oracle. | ||
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wchigo
China71 Posts
On September 20 2012 22:52 Fragile51 wrote: Forcing someone else to engage on your terms is RTS for 7 year olds? What the hell are you even talking about? "there should always be multiple options in most of the situations". There is. You can sit back and take the damage, you can attack knowing the risk you are taking a fight that doesn't favor you OR move your army around in a way that it ends up favoring you, or you do your own harass in order to gain ground. I really don't understand why people are saying tempests are skill-less boring deathball units when they are literally the absolute opposite and are exactly what sc2 needs in order to become a better spectator experience. Except that the entire usefulness of the unit is dependant on unreliable factors. I was originally going to say that it depends on other units to be useful, but that's not such a bad thing. Here's the thing: right now, with its current DPS, it won't really make your opponent sweat too much. Someone else did the math but just for a bit of reference it takes two Tempest (600/600/12!) in order to kill workers in one-shot and three Tempest (900/900/18!!) in order to kill HTs and Infestors in one-shot. That's a helluva lot of resources to invest and you could probably do a lot more with that same amount of resources in other units like Colossus, Blink Stalkers, Carriers, what have you. My other big problem is the vision requirement. It has a big range, of which I like the idea: super long-range sniping that should cause your opponent to react and slip up, which will end up giving you an advantage. However, the fact that it depends on other units to provide vision for it to reach maximum efficiency is impractical, as there is no 100% reliable way to obtain that vision. Yes, Siege Tanks also have an attack range that is outside of their vision range, so they require assistance. In basically all match-ups, Terran will have some kind of air presence (most commonly Medivacs and Vikings) which can provide the vision necessary. HOWEVER, in the event that the Terran player loses air dominance, they can still fall back on scans in order to provide vision that cannot be prevented or denied, with the drawback that the vision is temporary and takes away from their ability to call MULEs. Protoss lack such a tool in their arsenal. Gas is already at a premium for Protoss players in their end-game army, so generally speaking any Sentries that are lost will be less likely to be replaced in the late game. With one or two Sentries, you will not be able to cast many Hallucinations. Add to the fact that the fake units take more damage than real units, and you're likely to lose them real fast as any Terran or Zerg player with halfway decent knowledge of the game will have Vikings and Corruptors in their late-game army in order to deal with your Colossus. That, realistically, leaves you with two options: Observers and Revelation. I love Observers, I think they're the best scouting unit in the game as they are permanently cloaked and half decent speed, and can even be upgraded to be SUPER FAST. The drawback is that it is super fragile and will die pretty much immediately once it is detected. If I am a Terran player and I know you are firing at me from range, I will simply scan the area around my army and my Vikings will kill your Observer pretty much the moment I click to cast. As a Zerg, you can bet I will have Overseers with my army seeing as how you will most likely go for Mothership at some point (added bonus of being DT defence also!) and your Observers won't be able to get near my army. Revelation could possibly work as it just targets an area, but you still have to get fairly close. I'd say it's more feasible against Terran than Zerg because, depending on reaction time, I would be very willing to potentially sacrifice an Infestor in order to lock down and kill your Oracle. I then retreat to an area you don't have vision of until Revelation wears off, then I'm safe. OR, I could even just go and kill you since I know you have a bunch of resources and supply tied up in units that aren't very good in a direct confrontation. To paraphrase Day[9]: your opponent can be all cute and harass or whatever, just go fucking kill him. I'd be quite a bit more weary about engaging if you had three more Colossus or some mixture of High Templars and Gateway units instead of three Tempest, to be perfectly honest. Again, I like the idea of the unit and I'm not saying all of this because I want it to fail, but the huge range is just gimmicky. Siege Tanks don't have as much range but at least have splash, and even then I feel that they don't quite pack the punch that they should, especially in the larger maps that don't funnel units as much (Full disclosure for my Tank comment: I am a Protoss player, so I am not whining about my own unit being UP). It needs more to be really worth investing so much time, resources and supply in it, but of course this is all my opinion. I am not arguing that you are not allowed to be excited by the unit and feel that it has potential; I simply hope that you can understand why I, and others who share my view on the Tempest, don't feel that it is going to do much in its current incarnation. | ||
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Nosferatos
Norway783 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Forcing the Zerg to engage the Colossi/stalker/sentry deathball in WOL was next to impossible. In HOTS, tempests pretty much force Zerg to react or slowly chipped to death, Why there is still bitching I have no idea. | ||
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