|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On September 10 2012 17:00 Garmer wrote:
this doesn't change the fact that 2 supply, make no sense on an units that is supposed to control area map, it's against the concept of the mines itself.
it is as if they are treats mines like an a-move units
Also not only that, but if you get like 10 mines that's 20 supply not in your main army and if you don't have a high supply mech army, everything just rolls over it as tanks are so damned bad.
Make mines like 0.33 supply so you get 3 when you build them (like when you got a vulture) in the factory and nerf their single target damage but increase their splash by a little and they'd probably be fine. Single mines are useless to do the job they want them to do and also they don't "control areas" or "slow down the enemy".
|
On September 10 2012 18:20 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 17:00 Garmer wrote:
this doesn't change the fact that 2 supply, make no sense on an units that is supposed to control area map, it's against the concept of the mines itself.
it is as if they are treats mines like an a-move units Also not only that, but if you get like 10 mines that's 20 supply not in your main army and if you don't have a high supply mech army, everything just rolls over it as tanks are so damned bad. Make mines like 0.33 supply so you get 3 when you build them (like when you got a vulture) in the factory and nerf their single target damage but increase their splash by a little and they'd probably be fine. Single mines are useless to do the job they want them to do and also they don't "control areas" or "slow down the enemy".
Seriously? 0.33 supply? It would be worse than 1 supply Roaches... You realize that the whole point of Mines was to control space while reducing the Death Ball because it costs supply. I agree that 2 supply for a Mine is too much, but reduce it to 1, and pump the splash damage to be 50, and it would probably be fine.
|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
They'd be 1 supply but each mine would be 0.33 meaning that your mech army isn't destroyed by every other army in the game as you have too much supply in mines. Even having it at 1 supply per mine makes the mine useless. Nobody would ever make them as a single mine is pointless to have and to get a decent number (say 10) that'd be 10 supply not in other units meaning your mech army gets killed by whatever deathball protoss, zerg or terran bio sends at you.
|
On September 10 2012 18:32 Qikz wrote:
They'd be 1 supply but each mine would be 0.33 meaning that your mech army isn't destroyed by every other army in the game as you have too much supply in mines. Even having it at 1 supply per mine makes the mine useless. Nobody would ever make them as a single mine is pointless to have and to get a decent number (say 10) that'd be 10 supply not in other units meaning your mech army gets killed by whatever deathball protoss, zerg or terran bio sends at you.
a sieged up mech army with 10 less supply still owns every ground army. that IS how mech should be. the mech army shouldnt be a-move vs the other army. it should be about crawling your way forward with tanks, turrets and perhaps PFs while keeping you safe from runbys with mines, turrets and PFs.
best thing would be to make mines NO single target but 50-60 AoE damage while making them 0,5 or 1 supply and NOT hit air.
|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
I don't actually understand why the mines hit air. We have turrets for that, infact that's all turrets are good for minus detection 
|
On September 10 2012 18:40 Qikz wrote:I don't actually understand why the mines hit air. We have turrets for that, infact that's all turrets are good for minus detection
Turrets aren't good when 20+ Mutas enters your base, Mines are good for that, and Turrets still don't do anything vs. Drop, you can still drop units before Turret kills the dropship, while Mines will kill it instantly, and will negate the drop completely.
|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On September 10 2012 18:50 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 18:40 Qikz wrote:I don't actually understand why the mines hit air. We have turrets for that, infact that's all turrets are good for minus detection Turrets aren't good when 20+ Mutas enters your base, Mines are good for that, and Turrets still don't do anything vs. Drop, you can still drop units before Turret kills the dropship, while Mines will kill it instantly, and will negate the drop completely.
Is that fair though?
We should use turrets to attack dropships and then mines to attack the units that get out.
Also if you get enough turrets they do deter mutas. Even in larger numbers.
|
Even 1 supply is a bit much for something that takes away from your army.
0.5 or 0 supply (and from a unit) would be more ideal for static defense.
|
this will be the first 0.5 units for terran then, increase their splash to 50 and make them 1 supply would be enough, don't need to make them 0.5
|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
Meh the splash damage doesn't need to be better. If anything they'll never get a chance to do splash against good players. They just need to lower the supply to 0.5 per mine and have the same damage if they want that to happen.
The other problem with the mine right now is they don't really trade well against good players, especially against zerg.
1 mine for 1 zergling is a terrible trade for example.
|
On September 10 2012 19:43 Qikz wrote:
Meh the splash damage doesn't need to be better. If anything they'll never get a chance to do splash against good players. They just need to lower the supply to 0.5 per mine and have the same damage if they want that to happen.
The other problem with the mine right now is they don't really trade well against good players, especially against zerg.
1 mine for 1 zergling is a terrible trade for example.
Yes, but 1 Mine for 1 Mutalisk/Hydralisk/Swarm Host is excellent trade. You can't have mines that are strong as this be 0.5 supply. Supported by Tanks, nothing will come close to the Mines and situation where you will trade 1 Mine for 1 Zergling won't happen, and everything else will be traded a lot more cost-efficiently than it should with Mines that are 0.5.
Mines don't get killed easily like in BW, they have crazy 90 HP, from games I've seen for example, Roaches can't kill Mines, Mines will always attack first, before Roaches will be able to kill them.
And Widow Mines have big advantage over the Mines from SC BW, and that is that if you see enemy coming at you, and that you can't kill it with mines because they have more range/small units/whatever, you can just unburrow and retreat with them.
|
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear.
|
United Kingdom12027 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear.
But that isn't true. The thor is good enough against mutas alone and with everything else you will be pushing with turrets anyway. Having the mines have anti air makes them terrible for what their actual purpose is which is board control and ruins the entire concept of having the mine.
I'm all for saying mech vs air is really bad, but as you usually transition to sky terran late game, you get air upgrades so vikings are good for it.
|
On September 10 2012 23:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 22:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear. But that isn't true. The thor is good enough against mutas alone and with everything else you will be pushing with turrets anyway. Having the mines have anti air makes them terrible for what their actual purpose is which is board control and ruins the entire concept of having the mine. I'm all for saying mech vs air is really bad, but as you usually transition to sky terran late game, you get air upgrades so vikings are good for it.
Oh i'm not saying i agree with that, just that based on HOTS developmeant and interviews, that is what i think is their line of thought.
I wish we had mines for space control and stronger tanks and mini thors (they need AOE because of the unlimited unit selection---50 muta ball vs max 12 in BW). That's not going to happen though, even if it fixes what they want to fix and also brings a lot more depth to mech play. It's more important for Dustin Browder to distance himself from BW then to make good unit synergy and depth of play.
|
On September 10 2012 23:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 22:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear. But that isn't true. The thor is good enough against mutas alone and with everything else you will be pushing with turrets anyway. Having the mines have anti air makes them terrible for what their actual purpose is which is board control and ruins the entire concept of having the mine. I'm all for saying mech vs air is really bad, but as you usually transition to sky terran late game, you get air upgrades so vikings are good for it.
That then isn't mech, is it? Thors aren't good vs. Mutas as you think. Yes, 3-4 Thors would counter ~15 Mutas, but if enemy see you go for pure Mech, he can go for 25+ Mutalisks, that spread counter Thors easily. And if you get too many Thors, you use too much supply, so you lack Hellions and/or Siege Tanks, and in the end, simple mass of Roach/Ling/Infestor army will crush you. I feel that Mine will be great, just needs a little tweaking, and it will be awesome for new mech, while nerfing the Warhound to the ground, so we end up using Tanks the most, with Battle Hellions/Warhounds/Thors/Mines as support units, depending on what you play against and what you need.
|
On September 10 2012 23:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 23:25 Qikz wrote:On September 10 2012 22:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear. But that isn't true. The thor is good enough against mutas alone and with everything else you will be pushing with turrets anyway. Having the mines have anti air makes them terrible for what their actual purpose is which is board control and ruins the entire concept of having the mine. I'm all for saying mech vs air is really bad, but as you usually transition to sky terran late game, you get air upgrades so vikings are good for it. That then isn't mech, is it? Thors aren't good vs. Mutas as you think. Yes, 3-4 Thors would counter ~15 Mutas, but if enemy see you go for pure Mech, he can go for 25+ Mutalisks, that spread counter Thors easily. And if you get too many Thors, you use too much supply, so you lack Hellions and/or Siege Tanks, and in the end, simple mass of Roach/Ling/Infestor army will crush you. I feel that Mine will be great, just needs a little tweaking, and it will be awesome for new mech, while nerfing the Warhound to the ground, so we end up using Tanks the most, with Battle Hellions/Warhounds/Thors/Mines as support units, depending on what you play against and what you need.
well since mech is already viable with no battlehelions, warhounds and mines, what you say isnt right. if the zerg commits to supermass muta he wont be able to get roach ling infestor out 2 seconds later like you make it sound. thors with turrets + repair on both are superfine vs mass muta. making the mine hit air ist just bad and in the result the mine will be very weak since otherwise it is too good vs the very expensive air units while sucking on the ground.
|
On September 11 2012 01:02 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 23:40 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 10 2012 23:25 Qikz wrote:On September 10 2012 22:49 Sapphire.lux wrote:
They view them as anti air, that's why they need armory to build and why Thors are unchanged, even though at Blizzcon they identified them as a weakness for anti air.
As base defence, they kill medivacs, warp prisms, banshees, mutas, etc... You might be able to make them work in a tank, hellion army with very few Thors in TvZ: see mutas coming...use the mines.
To make them 0.5 supply to be used as proper map control they would probably need to loose the anti air aspect. This would bring back the "Thor problem" that is only solved by transforming the Worhound in to a Goliath/ mini Thor.
Think death ball, and a lot of Blizzard design decisions are made clear. But that isn't true. The thor is good enough against mutas alone and with everything else you will be pushing with turrets anyway. Having the mines have anti air makes them terrible for what their actual purpose is which is board control and ruins the entire concept of having the mine. I'm all for saying mech vs air is really bad, but as you usually transition to sky terran late game, you get air upgrades so vikings are good for it. That then isn't mech, is it? Thors aren't good vs. Mutas as you think. Yes, 3-4 Thors would counter ~15 Mutas, but if enemy see you go for pure Mech, he can go for 25+ Mutalisks, that spread counter Thors easily. And if you get too many Thors, you use too much supply, so you lack Hellions and/or Siege Tanks, and in the end, simple mass of Roach/Ling/Infestor army will crush you. I feel that Mine will be great, just needs a little tweaking, and it will be awesome for new mech, while nerfing the Warhound to the ground, so we end up using Tanks the most, with Battle Hellions/Warhounds/Thors/Mines as support units, depending on what you play against and what you need. well since mech is already viable with no battlehelions, warhounds and mines, what you say isnt right. if the zerg commits to supermass muta he wont be able to get roach ling infestor out 2 seconds later like you make it sound. thors with turrets + repair on both are superfine vs mass muta. making the mine hit air ist just bad and in the result the mine will be very weak since otherwise it is too good vs the very expensive air units while sucking on the ground.
It is viable in some situations, most of the time it get completely destroyed by Roach Drops and/or Muta play or you Roaches with Infestors. Yes, Zerg will be able to switch to mass units, that is like the trademark of the Zerg race in SC2, fastest tech switching? It won't be 2 seconds later, but it will definitely be a lot lot faster than what it takes for Terran to switch from mass Thors to mass Tanks and Hellions.
|
As P player, mines look really bad. First, if there are any early scouting giveaways for a mine terran, P could just 6 gate with hallucinate and win or pull 4 probes for the attack; mines are too fragile in that respect.
I feel for any matchup, mines should not be 2 supply, and should not require an armory. There's no reason at all for these things to take up factory time AND need an armory to be built. I don't think we'll get the .5 supply from the factory since that is too "un-Terran-like." What I think is the best solution for these things is to have them be 1 supply, have a radius of 1.5 or 2, and do a flat splash damage to every unit caught in the aoe. The damage would be appropriate at 25 I think, meaning combat shield marines will need 3 hits, marines without shields 2, lings 2, and the armored units of all races like stalkers, roaches, marauders will only be softened up by it. You can have interesting combos with it then, like EMP then mines for a situational but very powerful combo, or marine stim + mines to do a ton of burst damage to an unlucky opponent, as opposed to a pure marine stim attack which won't do as much damage in a certain amount of time but is more of a sure thing than counting on people running over mines the instant the marines attack.
TLDR: Mines with 1 supply, no armory requirement, 1.5 or 2 radius splash, and low damage (25) would be pretty fitting.
|
Would be pretty fitting with 25 damage? For what exactly? We would see Manner Mules a lot more often than Mines with 25 damage...
|
I like how all these Mine nerfs were supposed to be directed toward the Warhound (+supply, armory requirement, dps decrease). It's like they took Mech and assumed it was the Mine part of the Mine/Warhound/Seige Tank that was OP. The best thing that could happen to the Mine would be to put it on a fast, gas costing unit. The Spider Mine was already the perfect mechanic (watch the PvT video in the Warhound thread), it being gasless was the balance issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
