EPTEdit: It might be even worth it to keep the price (or increase it even), lower the supply cost to 1 and make two of them come out of the factory at the same time. Merge their single and AOE target damage so it's the same (I don't know the exact number for the aoe right now but I believe it's pretty low like 30 something?) - of course this is where the biggest adjustments would be. But to make it different that a baneling make it hit air so it servers multiple purposes (defending your base from air raids and carpeting your flanks/siege fronts with them) while NOT taking up so much supply.
[D] The widow mine's quintuple nerf before beta - Page 4
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CikaZombi
Serbia630 Posts
Edit: It might be even worth it to keep the price (or increase it even), lower the supply cost to 1 and make two of them come out of the factory at the same time. Merge their single and AOE target damage so it's the same (I don't know the exact number for the aoe right now but I believe it's pretty low like 30 something?) - of course this is where the biggest adjustments would be. But to make it different that a baneling make it hit air so it servers multiple purposes (defending your base from air raids and carpeting your flanks/siege fronts with them) while NOT taking up so much supply. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
2 tanks would even hold and control space better than the 2 spider mines due to the reduced splash. I feel that even 1 supply is a little too much as in BW you could get a mine for 2/3 supply and then still have a unit which can be used for damage. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
It's a bit too easy to get to 200/200 in this game though, which plays into the problem. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 08 2012 21:09 DemigodcelpH wrote: False. Static defense doesn't need to cost supply. PFs cost signifcant gas and 4-5x as much as spores/spines/cannons so that's not a valid argument on why mines can't cost supply. It worked fine in BW, so it can work with the right damage numbers. and the mine isnt static defense like spores/cannons/PF are build to protect buildings/mineral lines. area control units like tanks/swarm host etc. are used to prevent frontal engagements in these areas or neglect basetrades while the main army is somewhere else. and thats exactly what terran mech needs. to control space, so that the slowmoving mech army isnt just basetraded etc. against. there isnt a supply problem anyway, just make them 0,5 or 1 supply. for zero supply they would need to nerf the damage too hard. | ||
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Incomplet
United Kingdom1419 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On September 08 2012 21:48 Grumbels wrote: I'm not sure if I mind the armory requirement. If you can rush out mines then early game contains really become quite easy. I guess the armory basically takes the place of the upgrade that you needed in BW (and armory actually builds faster), so it makes some sense on that level. But the supply cost is way too high, and I've started to agree that you should basically get two-for one like you do with zerglings. If mines don't come as an ability on another unit, they should be 0.5 supply units | ||
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Maghetti
United States2429 Posts
First off, Mines are suicide units by definition that also come with no guarantee they will hit an enemy unit and do the damage to make up for the cost, which requires them to be much cheaper than the units they will actually kill. An expensive mine, or even a slightly too expensive mine is a useless mine. I think any sensible person would agree that 2 supply per mine makes mines utterly useless investments. Mines 'must' be low supply to be of use, otherwise your main army will be too small and you will just die straight up. The thing is, if you give mines no supply and do not link them to a unit(like the spider mine was with the vulture) terran can mass the hell out of them and it can get out of hand. Having 0.5 supply per mine allows the usage of mines while restricting them to reasonable numbers. Having them come out 2 at a time make sense because of how their supply works and making one 0.5 supply unit at a time doesn't really make sense. Plus it would be way too taxing on peoples production to have to make more mines every 10 seconds or so. Having them come out of the factory as is makes sense because blizzard obviously wants to bring a sort of spider mine back while making it unique from the spider mine. If you make them come from a unit they'd basically be spider mines 2.0. The mines need to have enough range to pose a real threat(not just where they activate when walked on top of) while also allowing counter micro. If you have a range of say, 4 for example, then if mines pop up during a battle the enemy has the chance to pick them off if they are fast and skilled enough. This sort of range also prevents them from being too powerful that they can't just attack themselves to any units that ever try to take them out detection or not. These mines need to have splash damage to truely effectively control range. If these mines simply kill one unit at a time a few cheap units like lings can be sent in and the mines would never be cost efficient. Plus it looks dumb to have a bomb blow up in a clomp of units but only damage one. As for damage, these mines are supposed to be fairly easy to avoid as long as the enemy is safe(hence controlling the map) so they should do a lot of damage to the targeted unit with a fairly powerful amount of splash. Also, i don't care if mines damage flying units or not, but I guess I'd prefer that they didn't else you will have mines killing drop ships and banshees and stuff way too easily. | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:17 avilo wrote: Exactly. Let's say you build 10 widow mines for whatever reason. What would you rather have? Another 5 ravens? Another 5 warhounds? Another 3 tanks? 1 thor and some vikings? The list goes on. If you are beta testing Terran right now in HOTS and using the mines you are putting yourself at a disadvantage vs every race, including in TvT. They need to re-buff it so it can kill units. I just played trump and saw him trying to use the mines (oh how naive trump :D lol) and i walked like 3 warhounds and some hellions onto the mines and my warhounds were still in the high green health @_@. Imo, why not give the mine to the warhound and make it not cost supply/stronger? That would add a bit more depth to the warhound and you'd see them going around the map laying mines. As is, it's way too weak, and it's always worth it to build a raven/viking/warhound/tank/thor/hellion/marauder/marine/medivac (any other unit) over the widow mine. If you're looking to stop drop harrass, turrets are already more than enough and more effective than widow mines. They are not good at that or anything else. If you want to stop drops, build a permanent missile turret for zero gas cost with more range instead. Thats actually a really good idea. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
Otherwise the mine is completely useless. Which is sad because its my favorite concept. Its basically a 2 supply baneling that does less splash radius and more single target damage. The only thing I can see it being use for is drop denial in TVT. it can one shot a medivac so it might be worth having 1 or two in the back of your base. edit. Avilo beat me to the suggestion =P | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
1) We have turrets to deal with drops, mines help clean up the units that actually get out, not kill the dropships as that's actually kind of OP. 2) Mines were used to slow enemy armies down and make it dangerous for them to not blindly walk around your army to go base trade you. Currently you can't use them for this. 3) The main issue is the cost and the fact they're 2 supply. It means to get any decent number of mines you have to give up tanks/thors/hellions in your main army and that means your main army will just melt to any attack into it. 4) Why is it not possible to just give them as an ability to either the hellion or the warhound and make them cost energy? They were free in BW and people never really complained about them as they were easily countered by just having detection. Their place in the game should be to slow down the enemy to make it possible to move your tanks safely. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5771 Posts
On September 10 2012 02:57 Qikz wrote: The issue I have with the mines are as follows 1) We have turrets to deal with drops, mines help clean up the units that actually get out, not kill the dropships as that's actually kind of OP. 2) Mines were used to slow enemy armies down and make it dangerous for them to not blindly walk around your army to go base trade you. Currently you can't use them for this. 3) The main issue is the cost and the fact they're 2 supply. It means to get any decent number of mines you have to give up tanks/thors/hellions in your main army and that means your main army will just melt to any attack into it. 4) Why is it not possible to just give them as an ability to either the hellion or the warhound and make them cost energy? They were free in BW and people never really complained about them as they were easily countered by just having detection. Their place in the game should be to slow down the enemy to make it possible to move your tanks safely. The answer might not please you: Blizzard wanted to change something about mines so that people could not say they copied the idea from BW. Because of that, in order to reuse a perfectly valid concept from BW, they have to break it in some way. Sad but true. T____T | ||
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Inkstorm
United States10 Posts
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To put it bluntly, I believe the Widow Mine (WM for short) is conceptually broken and should have either been scrapped or remade after its introduction. It simply has too many drawbacks and fails to perform the role it was designed to fill. The Drawbacks + Show Spoiler +
Interaction With Other HotS Units + Show Spoiler + The Warhound - The Warhound counters WMs so dominantly that it's disheartening. It really is ironic that Warhounds not only counter siege lines but also the units that are supposed to protect them.
The Swarm Host - Zerg’s new siege unit makes a mockery out of WMs. The combination of Swarm Hosts and a single Overseer allow for the ability to painlessly clear any area with ease. The Oracle - a second, mobile version of detection if Protoss chooses not to tech into the robotics bay. The Tempest - I doubt WMs will deter the movement of a unit with 22 range. Micro + Show Spoiler + Burrow and Stealth can both be used to avoid the WM’s direct damage while Blink escapes it entirely. These abilities seem to cause the WM to lose sight of its target so they detonate at the location it was last seen (hence burrow and stealth taking splash). While this might seem extreme, consider the other possibility of Protoss sending stalkers to collect WMs and then blinking them into Terran’s army. | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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johnny123
521 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:16 Inkstorm wrote: Was about to start a thread detailing the Widow Mine and just saw this one. I'll post what I have so far on my outlook regarding the unit. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To put it bluntly, I believe the Widow Mine (WM for short) is conceptually broken and should have either been scrapped or remade after its introduction. It simply has too many drawbacks and fails to perform the role it was designed to fill. The Drawbacks + Show Spoiler +
Interaction With Other HotS Units + Show Spoiler + The Warhound - The Warhound counters WMs so dominantly that it's disheartening. It really is ironic that Warhounds not only counter siege lines but also the units that are supposed to protect them.
The Swarm Host - Zerg’s new siege unit makes a mockery out of WMs. The combination of Swarm Hosts and a single Overseer allow for the ability to painlessly clear any area with ease. The Oracle - a second, mobile version of detection if Protoss chooses not to tech into the robotics bay. The Tempest - I doubt WMs will deter the movement of a unit with 22 range. Micro + Show Spoiler + Burrow and Stealth can both be used to avoid the WM’s direct damage while Blink escapes it entirely. These abilities seem to cause the WM to lose sight of its target so they detonate at the location it was last seen (hence burrow and stealth taking splash). While this might seem extreme, consider the other possibility of Protoss sending stalkers to collect WMs and then blinking them into Terran’s army. extremely good post and i agree 100% i would also like to say that, with any mine laying ability. A number of the problems you mentioned will always be the case no matter what. BUT , in broodwar these things were literally spammable. So the so called flaws of the unit didnt really matter as they almost came for free. (you got vulture and 3 mines for 75 mineral) In sc2 however, these mines come with heavy cost. Which makes the unit a pointless one. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
Two supply. TWO SUPPLY? Who the hell would ever build one of these? Two supply is the better part of a Siege Tank! Spider Mines were ZERO supply and slaughtered enemy units, and THEY were considered beautifully balanced. What did they screw up on so hard that they had to make the Widow Mine worth two more supply than the Spider Mine? | ||
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Inkstorm
United States10 Posts
On September 10 2012 10:13 johnny123 wrote: extremely good post and i agree 100% i would also like to say that, with any mine laying ability. A number of the problems you mentioned will always be the case no matter what. BUT , in broodwar these things were literally spammable. So the so called flaws of the unit didnt really matter as they almost came for free. (you got vulture and 3 mines for 75 mineral) In sc2 however, these mines come with heavy cost. Which makes the unit a pointless one. It's almost funny how different the two could be which is ironic by how badly Blizzard butchered this unit. 1. The Supply: Both units currently cost 2 supply, but in BW the supply was tied to the unit rather than the mine. 2. The Cost: Vultures were purely mineral based whereas Widow Mines also cost gas. 3. The Role: Vultures had the versatility to harass, sacrifice themselves as meat shields, and defend key positions while the Widow Mine is pigeon holed into a bad burrowed baneling. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On September 08 2012 14:54 johnny123 wrote: 3) gets the ability to detect burrowed units as well. Not cloak. Wait, so it can detect invisible units, but not... invisible units? | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
Spider Mines worked in BW because they were dumb. They were strong enough to be useful, but awkward enough that a good player could take advantage of their unreliable attacks to just kill them. In SC2, you have two options. They're either so strong that they're guaranteed to kill things, or so weak that a good player just needs to press Stop in time so that their army can auto-target them. That's why they're tied to supply, because letting a unit simply drop 2-3 of them with no cost means a minefield of death or yet another useless ability. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
it is as if they are treats mines like an a-move units | ||
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