On September 08 2012 19:24 Quotidian wrote: OP's point is spot on.. it's so weird that they changed the mine so much before beta, because it's not like they had a good grasp on how thing would actually function when the beta went live anyway. Their surprise at the overall strength of the Warhound is an example of that. They should've been more willing to experiment with it along the way, instead of launching with a unit there's no good reason to make
Also, Avilo please don't take this the wrong way but this has been bothering me with your posts for a while + Show Spoiler +
It's
It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."
It's time to go.
Do you think it's ready?
I read your article - it's very good.
Do you know where my purse is? It's on the table.
It's been a long time.
Its
Its is the possessive form of "it."
That's an interesting device - what is its purpose?
On September 08 2012 16:23 Alexj wrote: I like how terrans suddenly discover that they need to sacrifice supply for map control.
That said, 2 supply is actually stupid
there's nothing "sudden" about it. Terrans have been building bunkers with marines at distant expansion to control areas of the map since forever.
Woooow what? Wtf? It is such a rare occasion that u place random bunkers as Terran. And yes, terran never before needed to invest supply into mapcontrol. Protoss? Observer. Zerg? Lings, burrowed blings, mutas.
Oh lol just noticed it's an Avilo thread so ... yea, guess it doesn't help what useful arugments you bring up
or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
EDIT: the idea with warhounds with minds is also interesting, basically volture from bw, they should make appropriate changes to dmg and so on, and that would make warhounds a good unit for being a support to a tank, and not a main unit
On September 08 2012 19:57 thOr6136 wrote: or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
Why in the name of god should it detect ANYTHING? Do burrowed banes detect stuff? No! Is it somewhere written on the mine "Detetector". No! Do Zergs need to manually detonate to kill ghosts/DTs? Yes!
On September 08 2012 19:24 Quotidian wrote: OP's point is spot on.. it's so weird that they changed the mine so much before beta, because it's not like they had a good grasp on how thing would actually function when the beta went live anyway. Their surprise at the overall strength of the Warhound is an example of that. They should've been more willing to experiment with it along the way, instead of launching with a unit there's no good reason to make
Also, Avilo please don't take this the wrong way but this has been bothering me with your posts for a while + Show Spoiler +
It's
It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."
It's time to go.
Do you think it's ready?
I read your article - it's very good.
Do you know where my purse is? It's on the table.
It's been a long time.
Its
Its is the possessive form of "it."
That's an interesting device - what is its purpose?
I saw Les Misérables during its initial run.
This stove has its own timer.
The bird lost some of its feathers.
Where is its head office?
On September 08 2012 16:23 Alexj wrote: I like how terrans suddenly discover that they need to sacrifice supply for map control.
That said, 2 supply is actually stupid
there's nothing "sudden" about it. Terrans have been building bunkers with marines at distant expansion to control areas of the map since forever.
Woooow what? Wtf? It is such a rare occasion that u place random bunkers as Terran.
it's so rare that it's standard to get a bunker at the third against zerg...
On September 08 2012 19:57 thOr6136 wrote: or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
Why in the name of god should it detect ANYTHING? Do burrowed banes detect stuff? No! Is it somewhere written on the mine "Detetector". No! Do Zergs need to manually detonate to kill ghosts/DTs? Yes!
well it wouldn't be like detect = you see the invisible unit but more like mine would attach to invisible unit and dmg it
or make an option to auto destroy mines like banelings
On September 08 2012 19:57 thOr6136 wrote: or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
Why in the name of god should it detect ANYTHING? Do burrowed banes detect stuff? No! Is it somewhere written on the mine "Detetector". No! Do Zergs need to manually detonate to kill ghosts/DTs? Yes!
well it wouldn't be like detect = you see the invisible unit but more like mine would attach to invisible unit and dmg it
or make an option to auto destroy mines like banelings
and your arguments are stupid -,.- no offense
yeah just make the mine be manually explodable like burrowed baneling and it would be fine. but no autoexplode if burrowed/cloaked unit walks by. just handle them as banelings.
On September 08 2012 19:57 thOr6136 wrote: or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
Why in the name of god should it detect ANYTHING? Do burrowed banes detect stuff? No! Is it somewhere written on the mine "Detetector". No! Do Zergs need to manually detonate to kill ghosts/DTs? Yes!
well it wouldn't be like detect = you see the invisible unit but more like mine would attach to invisible unit and dmg it
or make an option to auto destroy mines like banelings
and your arguments are stupid -,.- no offense
yeah just make the mine be manually explodable like burrowed baneling and it would be fine. but no autoexplode if burrowed/cloaked unit walks by. just handle them as banelings.
Okay so from the conclusion you want a mine with 1 supply that costs 75/25 that can be triggered to explode? Hell why not give even MORE splash damage to Terran, it is not like they allready got the most AoE.
On September 08 2012 19:24 Quotidian wrote: OP's point is spot on.. it's so weird that they changed the mine so much before beta, because it's not like they had a good grasp on how thing would actually function when the beta went live anyway. Their surprise at the overall strength of the Warhound is an example of that. They should've been more willing to experiment with it along the way, instead of launching with a unit there's no good reason to make
Also, Avilo please don't take this the wrong way but this has been bothering me with your posts for a while + Show Spoiler +
It's
It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."
It's time to go.
Do you think it's ready?
I read your article - it's very good.
Do you know where my purse is? It's on the table.
It's been a long time.
Its
Its is the possessive form of "it."
That's an interesting device - what is its purpose?
I saw Les Misérables during its initial run.
This stove has its own timer.
The bird lost some of its feathers.
Where is its head office?
On September 08 2012 16:23 Alexj wrote: I like how terrans suddenly discover that they need to sacrifice supply for map control.
That said, 2 supply is actually stupid
there's nothing "sudden" about it. Terrans have been building bunkers with marines at distant expansion to control areas of the map since forever.
Woooow what? Wtf? It is such a rare occasion that u place random bunkers as Terran. And yes, terran never before needed to invest supply into mapcontrol. Protoss? Observer. Zerg? Lings, burrowed blings, mutas.
Oh lol just noticed it's an Avilo thread so ... yea, guess it doesn't help what useful arugments you bring up
Wow, you really don't know what you're talking about. I'd like to hear your definition of map control, just for the laughs. I think you made your point, you hate Terran and it should get nerfed. That's pretty much everything you have to add.
On September 08 2012 19:57 thOr6136 wrote: or maybe mines should come in pairs like zerglings - 1 mine 0.5 supply and yes i agree it should detect invis/burrowed units
Why in the name of god should it detect ANYTHING? Do burrowed banes detect stuff? No! Is it somewhere written on the mine "Detetector". No! Do Zergs need to manually detonate to kill ghosts/DTs? Yes!
well it wouldn't be like detect = you see the invisible unit but more like mine would attach to invisible unit and dmg it
or make an option to auto destroy mines like banelings
and your arguments are stupid -,.- no offense
yeah just make the mine be manually explodable like burrowed baneling and it would be fine. but no autoexplode if burrowed/cloaked unit walks by. just handle them as banelings.
Okay so from the conclusion you want a mine with 1 supply that costs 75/25 that can be triggered to explode? Hell why not give even MORE splash damage to Terran, it is not like they allready got the most AoE.
first of all i am a zerg player. and yes i am fine with that. but the mine shouldnt attack air. the mine attacking air is pretty retarded since turrets + marines/thors are already really good vs mutas/banshees/phoenix and like they removed air from swarm host they should remove it from mine also.
On September 08 2012 20:54 Atlan___ wrote: make the mine buildable in the warhound for same cost but without supply and with bigger damage (and splash) then it will be fine.
On September 08 2012 20:54 Atlan___ wrote: make the mine buildable in the warhound for same cost but without supply and with bigger damage (and splash) then it will be fine.
no supply would be superduper imba.
Why ? all other races do have static deffense which also don't cost supply + it does not suicide on the attack.
On September 08 2012 20:54 Atlan___ wrote: make the mine buildable in the warhound for same cost but without supply and with bigger damage (and splash) then it will be fine.
no supply would be superduper imba.
Why ? all other races do have static deffense which also don't cost supply + it does not suicide on the attack.
terran has the BEST static defense that doesnt cost supply: PF. it even does splash damage and can be repaired. spines/spores/cannons dont and do A LOT less damage, do NO AoE damage and arent movable on the whole map. mines are basically like banelings (which cost supply) so its fine they have supply. but 2 supply is too much so make them 1 supply.
I hope Blizzard don't mess this up. Terran needs some defensive unit/ buildings (as P have cannons and Z have spine crawlers). Having that kind of defence would make Terrans less turtle-y I feel.
I wouldn't be opposed to removing the burrow (invisible) aspect of the mine as long as it does effective damage. It needs to be a deterrent against Marine runbys, Zergling runbys and mass zealot/ stalker walk ins/ warp ins. Note; I say deterrent, not hard counter. It needs to slow the opponent down and/ or make the opponent think twice about attacking, just like a few cannons or a few spines would make a Terran think twice about dropping.
So yeah, some decent damage, maybe some splash. I think it should be cost efficient against small groups of units (6 marines, 12 zerglings, a warp in of zealots) but it can't be imba and rough up a full army. Just like a few stalkers have difficulty with spine crawlers, but 20+ stalkers almost don't notice them. Just like a few zerglings can't fight cannons but a huge runby isn't slowed down.
I think Blizzard need to balance the widow mine with cannons/ spines (note: both of these cost no supply). Seems like the fairest and most balanced way. I'm not sure what the best method would be. Perhaps make them quite expensive (75/25 is expensive for a self destruct unit), but cost 0.5 supply and do decent splash damage (I think I'd prefer wide splash, but low damage). Or forget the splash but make them do more direct damage. I think splash is a better way to go though, because otherwise they really have almost no use at all...
Factory constructs 2 widow mines as standard for 1 supply. Reactor factory constructs 4 widow mines for 2 supply. Keep everything else as is.
Half the cost, 1/4 the supply and it'll be fine.
Main difference between this and the BW vulture mine is you can relocate the mines here. After they're done nerfing the warhound, I hope they take a look at the Widow mine.
On September 08 2012 20:54 Atlan___ wrote: make the mine buildable in the warhound for same cost but without supply and with bigger damage (and splash) then it will be fine.
no supply would be superduper imba.
False. Static defense doesn't need to cost supply.
PFs cost signifcant gas and 4-5x as much as spores/spines/cannons so that's not a valid argument on why mines can't cost supply. It worked fine in BW, so it can work with the right damage numbers.
Just make it exactly like the spider mine. There's no shame in taking something from one of the best and most succesful games ever. You're already taking the concept of a mine. A mine shouldn't cost supply and shouldn't be able to move on it's own. It would add so much for entertainment and e-sports in general to add the old BW mine.
The spider mine could be focused down before it attacks your units, meaning your opponent has potential to micro against it effectively. The fact that it gets dropped by units, makes it a lot less fragile (to be used in straight up battles), more massable and more mobile. Vultures were really fast, could quickly place 3 mines each and then go harrass something else. The fact that it got placed by vultures means it's also a lot more interesting and dynamic in straight up battles. Vulture's could quickly go behind an opponent or even straight up versus armies (in smaller skirmishes) and start dropping mines (see epic Bisu micro).
The mines shouldn't be contrallable if they ever get dropped by a unit (if they are quickly available in the game, which they should be to make them actually useful and worth getting) because this would make them way too strong in small skirmishes and this way people won't be able to lure them with a single zergling or zealot (which was important in the balancing aspect of it).
They should definitely not work versus air units. It's pretty ridiculous that an entire medivac would get destroyed by a mine you don't even have to micro. At least scourges required a lot of attention and sick multitasking and control to counter a drop.
If the mines can't target air, you can still use them to counter drops. And atleast mutalisk play won't be entirely destroyed by the mine...
EPT
