|
The widow mine is a unit that a lot of Terran players, and blizzard themselves were probably hopeing would help positional Terran play, maybe even bring back tank/mine pushes, along with things "away from the deathball" or that would "help break up deathballs."
The problem? Widow mines have been nerfed before being allowed to be tested in beta.
The quintuple nerf to the widow mine and why it's currently not good:
Keep in mind all of these nerfs were before the beta went live:
1) The widow mine requires an armory to build now
2) The widow mine damage was nerfed.
3) The widow mine's splash damage was nerfed.
4) The widow mine can no longer detect/kill cloaked/burrowed units.
5) The widow mine's supply was nerfed - it now costs 2 supply.
The reason this is not good? Well, first of all, in it's current form with these nerfs the widow mine is never worth building over a raw material army unit such as another warhound, another hellion, another tank, another raven, etc.
The widow mine does not kill cost efficiently vs really anything in the game. It's splash damage has been severely nerfed so even against Zerglings it's not something you would want say over a battle hellion.
The armory prerequisite is a nerf that makes it so mines come into the game at a point where all-ins, or other things could simply kill you or power through mines. You need the raw units.
The damage also is quite abysmal. I have seen and played with these against roaches some and the roaches laugh it off as if it's nothing. The splash is not enough, nor is the current damage to put in that "fear factor" that the opponent should NOT GO HERE. The opponent simply does not care the mines are there, and will plow through with their normal units.
The biggest reason why the widow mine is currently useless is the last pre-live beta nerf I mentioned - the 2 supply. Imagine building 16 widow mines, and placing them on the map...that is 32 supply no longer in your own army aka "deathball" that your opponent simply does not care about because now he can just be on his 3-4 bases and go kill you.
With a supply cost on the mine...simply put, you are punished for building them, and you are punished if you have them on the map essentially doing "nothing."
The other slight nerf I believe is the mine does not detect cloaked units such as DTS or burrowed roaches, meaning it's utility is even worse in the situations you would want it to detonate - it simply wont' unless you happened to insta-scan that area which defeats the purpose of having pre-placed mines to deal with threats.
The mine will have to be looked at imo, perhaps buffed back to pre-live beta status in some way in terms of splash/detection/damage/supply. I would argue the only attribute of the mine that will allow it to ever see the light of day in HOTS is removing the supply so that Terran has something they can control the map with that the opponent does have to fear (like spider mines).
Conclusion: With it's current stats/balance, the widow mine will not be used in the majority of competitive play because you are punished for building it over raw material army units, and it does not do what it's supposed to do for the costs associated with it.
edit: Also, if blizzard wants to make this unit work, than they are going to have to take a risk, and make it as strong as a spider mine in terms of damage output/no supply. Otherwise, just scrap it imo. Seeing as this is their beta, it would be awesome if they implemented a build with the mine actually being good, and if it's too good or doesn't work they could easily roll back the change / get rid of the unit. 
|
i was actualy hoping the widow mine would be useful against swarm hosts, but then they removed it affecting burrowed/cloaked.
maybe just burrowed units only in addition to the other stuff it currently detects right now?
i can understand not going after cloaked units, but from a "make sense " stance it would make sense if it can detect burrowed unit since its underground as well.
anyway i agree with this post, the mine is just bad in its current form . When you build them its more of a feeling of "hey i wonder how these will do into a meh what a waste", rather than, "fuck i really need these right now! "
In broodwar this was definately not the case, there was a reason to build the mines. To protect tanks, to cover flanks, to help against Recall . In sc2? these mines just seem like "hey you wanted a mine unit for HOTS?, take a mine with hardly any thought put into it.
and i think the reason it requires armory is because blizzard was scared of Really early mines going out on the field popping creep spreading queens.
|
wow it costs 2 supply now. damn man.
|
The two supply is dumb. No reason for this.
As for the other parts, I would say that you could revert all of it, as long as you change mines to only hit ground. That's basically what they did with the swarmhost. They made locusts only ground attack and super buffed them. They should do the same with mines.
|
wow, they really fucked up the widow mine. I knew that nerfed the damage a bit but I never knew about the supply nerf and armory. Blizzard seems to be fucking up considering the nerfed this into the ground but havent done anything to the warhound.
|
I think 2 supply is overkill. One supply is a good number.
Everything else about the Widow Mine is fine in my opinion.
|
On September 08 2012 13:02 Robotix wrote:
I think 2 supply is overkill. One supply is a good number.
Everything else about the Widow Mine is fine in my opinion.
I dont think 2 supply or the armory nerf was good either way. Think about if you are not going mech and want to incorporate widow mines + mmm. Around 13 minutes will probably be the time you get a armory and by that time you'd be better off getting ghosts with the resources rather than widow mines vs either zerg or protoss. And if you are going mech why not just make the warhound instead considering the supply inefficency of the mine. Not even considering the lackluster damage with these two points. It was a flawed concept from the beginning. Massive damage with 10 second detonation time? Anyone with above 150 apm would be able to seperate it from their army in that time. So they proceeded to change it to instant detonation but lower the damage so that one cant even oneshot a queen. Essentially making it a unit you wouldnt make into ANOTHER unit you wouldnt make.
|
I actually disagree with this post for a few reasons that I think the op didn't take into consideration.
1) The damage nerf was because they got rid of the 10 second timer and made it an instant attack. However it still kills units in one shot except units that shouldn't die with one shot like Thor's and brood lords, its cost effective against most of those units as well like the roach, stoker, marauder, spell casters and flying units.
2) The splash damage was actually buffed if you think about it because on the custom hots map most people would pull the unit away before it detonated and any splash is better then none. Also 35 splash damage is close to as much as a baneling and two shots marines and lings but maby the radius could use a buff I don't know enough about that.
3) As Johnny123 said the armoury requirement is probably because of creep spread and queens early game, as well as the fact that zerg dose not really have any way of killing a borrowed mine before lair as it has more range then all hatchery tech units. So basically completely imba.
4) As far as killing clocked units goes, well why should it. Bunkers, spines and auto cast burrowed banlings don't just magically kill clocked/burrowed units, detectors spot invisible units and non-detectors don't that is the game mechanic and it adds skill to the game so if you don't like it don't play.
5) I also think you missed the main point of the widow mine because you keep mentioning how core army units would be better to build because their stronger in fights. warhounds and helions and stuff just add to the death ball and wants units that are more effective outside the death ball. The widow mine is supposed to be used as a defensive unit against drops or behind your tanks while you make a push with your slow immobile mech army, and considering it kills medivacs, overlords and warp prisms instantly I would say it pretty effective (75 min and 25 gas for a 700 min and 100 gas more if marauders were in their). Plus if the units did drop the splash would make it much easier for your only mobile unit the helion to clean it up and also for spawning units to clean it up. So ya you could make army units instead but at a high level I hope you like to lose everything to drops because no one will want to engage your mech army.
6) The two supply might be overkill but I don't think we have enough data to determine that and will have to wait till the beta styles and balance develop.
Thanks for reading guys I know it was a long post but I had to get it out.
Edit: Oops forgot to mention only reason I think two supply might work is because of the efficiency of the mech army.
|
So basically the you think the mine should only be used for 1 purpose, defending drops? Talk about gimmick game design.
2 supply makes it worthless, your opponent will just get a bigger army due to the supply discrepancy and kill you if you ever get more than a couple mines.
|
On September 08 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote:
So basically the you think the mine should only be used for 1 purpose, defending drops? Talk about gimmick game design.
2 supply makes it worthless, your opponent will just get a bigger army due to the supply discrepancy and kill you if you ever get more than a couple mines.
Edited my post to say that 2 supply might (and notice I say might) work due to mech efficiency. Also I said it could be used behind your tank line while pushing to stop tank snipes or the enemy army going around yours and getting a better engagement.
|
Probably the least-seen unit on all the beta streams thus far.
Heart of the Warhound.
|
United States4883 Posts
Yeah...this is disconcerting. They tried to make the spider mine, but then decided not to make the spider mine. It's really dumb that they can't seem to find the place to balance these things out. I feel like all widow mines need is everything spider mines had in BW. Even with 2 supply, if they just worked like spider mines, I think they'd be worth it.
Hell, nerf their HP or increase their burrow time if you're worried about early game abuse.... Don't just delay them to the point where they're useless.
|
On September 08 2012 13:42 xyres wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote:
So basically the you think the mine should only be used for 1 purpose, defending drops? Talk about gimmick game design.
2 supply makes it worthless, your opponent will just get a bigger army due to the supply discrepancy and kill you if you ever get more than a couple mines. Edited my post to say that 2 supply might (and notice I say might) work due to mech efficiency. Also I said it could be used behind your tank line while pushing to stop tank snipes or the enemy army going around yours and getting a better engagement.
Meh, circumstantial.
Maybe they'll be good in tvt vs marines.
|
On September 08 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote:
So basically the you think the mine should only be used for 1 purpose, defending drops? Talk about gimmick game design.
2 supply makes it worthless, your opponent will just get a bigger army due to the supply discrepancy and kill you if you ever get more than a couple mines.
Exactly. Let's say you build 10 widow mines for whatever reason. What would you rather have?
Another 5 ravens?
Another 5 warhounds?
Another 3 tanks?
1 thor and some vikings?
The list goes on. If you are beta testing Terran right now in HOTS and using the mines you are putting yourself at a disadvantage vs every race, including in TvT.
They need to re-buff it so it can kill units. I just played trump and saw him trying to use the mines (oh how naive trump :D lol) and i walked like 3 warhounds and some hellions onto the mines and my warhounds were still in the high green health @_@.
Imo, why not give the mine to the warhound and make it not cost supply/stronger? That would add a bit more depth to the warhound and you'd see them going around the map laying mines.
As is, it's way too weak, and it's always worth it to build a raven/viking/warhound/tank/thor/hellion/marauder/marine/medivac (any other unit) over the widow mine. If you're looking to stop drop harrass, turrets are already more than enough and more effective than widow mines.
On September 08 2012 13:46 HoLe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 13:42 xyres wrote:On September 08 2012 13:36 Zombo Joe wrote:
So basically the you think the mine should only be used for 1 purpose, defending drops? Talk about gimmick game design.
2 supply makes it worthless, your opponent will just get a bigger army due to the supply discrepancy and kill you if you ever get more than a couple mines. Edited my post to say that 2 supply might (and notice I say might) work due to mech efficiency. Also I said it could be used behind your tank line while pushing to stop tank snipes or the enemy army going around yours and getting a better engagement. Meh, circumstantial. Maybe they'll be good in tvt vs marines.
They are not good at that or anything else. If you want to stop drops, build a permanent missile turret for zero gas cost with more range instead.
|
hmmm...
Remove the warhounds haywire missles since they are borderline OP, and give the warhound the ability to lay -two- widow mines, elaving the mines as they are currently, minus supply.
I like it!
|
Canada13405 Posts
2 supply is rough, but it really shouldn't be a detector. Let us be honest here, if it could detect and kill it would be a little much. It shouldnt replace a tank line or a defensive army, it should force someone to take their time giving you time to reposition mech. IMO, thats what the mine should really be used for in a defensive sense. Not as a widow mine at choke and now nothing cloaked on the ground will kill me 
|
Lol they cost the same supply as a warhound? Is this serious? I wonder how blizzard is justifying supply costs at the moment. With how shitty the damage is they shouldn't be any supply honestly. "oh but then you'll just cover the map in them." Uh, remember bw TvP? Fucking millions of spider mines. Made for good games. I'm still lol'ing at 2 supply. I'd much rather have an OPhound.
|
The fact that it costs supply just seems so stupid. Sure it gives you map control, but the fact that it takes up supply means that you could just have units there, which seems to defeat the point of the whole thing.
It seems like it could be difficult to balance what tier the unit is at due to the lack of zerg detection in the early game unlike in brood war, which would allow terran to be incredibly abusive with rushing the mines.
|
i honestly think the best solution is
1) dont remove the requirement for armory. It needs to stay that way to prevent abuse
2) 1 supply instead of 2, maybe even .5 supply just like zerglings. If it costed 0 supply it would be a big issue very late game, with the entire battlefield filled with these guys. At least in broodwar you were limited to 3 mines per vulture. So i think supply cost is justified, just needs to be way less food.
3) gets the ability to detect burrowed units as well. Not cloak.
4) a further price tweak . Basically it costs the same as a roach but only has the potential to kill a roach. With a unit that is risk to reward, its cost need to be favored towards the risk, because there is potential for zero damage or bigger units absorbing it instead thus resulting in waste. i'd say 50/25 instead of 75/25 . In broodwar you got the vulture for 75 minerals only + 3 mines. Thats basically 4 fucking units for 75 minerals....................
this mine is bad, really bad. expect blizzard to patch it really soon.
|
I feel like the widow mine shouldn't be created at the factory. Instead it should require the factory tech but at the same time, it should be constructed by SCVs as if they were mobile buildings. This way, it doesn't clutter factory units while at the same time provides the map control that mech play needs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
