On September 09 2012 03:32 Beef Noodles wrote: I couldn't disagree more with some of the OP's points. The swarm host does control space (which in my opinion makes it awesome). The "hit me here" sign that you claim it brings is another way of saying it controls space, because you can either "hit the zerg there" or you have to back up your army. That's the definition of controlling space.
Also, I feel that the swarm host is a fantastic siege line breaker, but only in large numbers. The fact that the locusts sometimes die before doing any damage is usually because you don't have enough swarm hosts, and isn't bad for game design at all.
I love the swarm host, and it's units like these that made me come back from a year of quitting sc2 because it's getting to be a little more like sc:bw. IMO the swarm host is conceptually like if you took the lurker, made it better for offense and worse for defense -- but still viable for both.
I think you're wrong. I don't look at it as controlling space because when you control space with siege tanks it creates a line where the enemy has their own safe zone but if they come out of it or try to break out they're gonna have to deal with the tanks. The swarm host constantly sends locusts so there is no real "safe zone" and it kinda forces the enemy to break out ASAP so instead of controlling space it's almost like it forces them to be aggressive instead of keeping them in their base.
That is if you are using it offensively. It does control space in a defensive position.
You're right, it does, but it's getting boring to keep giving zerg stuff to have them play defensive T_T
But they won't play it defensively... Swarm Hosts are definitely better at offense than at defense. That is the whole point of the unit, a Lair tier unit that can be used for offense, and not just for harass, but for real offense and not making your attack an all-in.
This unit seems almost perfect to me, it does exactly what it is made for, and positional play/burrow attack than unburrow and move is pretty funny and interesting to watch. If any unit from all new units make SC2 grow, than it is this unit.
On September 09 2012 03:32 Beef Noodles wrote: I couldn't disagree more with some of the OP's points. The swarm host does control space (which in my opinion makes it awesome). The "hit me here" sign that you claim it brings is another way of saying it controls space, because you can either "hit the zerg there" or you have to back up your army. That's the definition of controlling space.
Also, I feel that the swarm host is a fantastic siege line breaker, but only in large numbers. The fact that the locusts sometimes die before doing any damage is usually because you don't have enough swarm hosts, and isn't bad for game design at all.
I love the swarm host, and it's units like these that made me come back from a year of quitting sc2 because it's getting to be a little more like sc:bw. IMO the swarm host is conceptually like if you took the lurker, made it better for offense and worse for defense -- but still viable for both.
I think you're wrong. I don't look at it as controlling space because when you control space with siege tanks it creates a line where the enemy has their own safe zone but if they come out of it or try to break out they're gonna have to deal with the tanks. The swarm host constantly sends locusts so there is no real "safe zone" and it kinda forces the enemy to break out ASAP so instead of controlling space it's almost like it forces them to be aggressive instead of keeping them in their base.
That is if you are using it offensively. It does control space in a defensive position.
You're right, it does, but it's getting boring to keep giving zerg stuff to have them play defensive T_T
But they won't play it defensively... Swarm Hosts are definitely better at offense than at defense. That is the whole point of the unit, a Lair tier unit that can be used for offense, and not just for harass, but for real offense and not making your attack an all-in.
This unit seems almost perfect to me, it does exactly what it is made for, and positional play/burrow attack than unburrow and move is pretty funny and interesting to watch. If any unit from all new units make SC2 grow, than it is this unit.
Well, a week ago I would have agreed with you. But since Hosts can't attack air anymore... Standard hellion banshee into third for Terran should beat host strategies as you can just go and hunt them down. (not to mention that with the new ravens... there might be banshee openings into bio/raven popping up and the first ravens just hunt down the hosts if you go for such a 2base rush) Void ray openings with oracle for detection sounds like it could beat it as well. Immortal + obs + prism at least forces you to protect the hosts and therefore get at least close to all-in. Or just drops. If you happen to see them on the open, you attack them, so he has to burrow, so the locusts spawn, Terran picks up and unloads before the next locusts spawn.
Of course I can't tell you if that stuff is going to play out like that, but basically you have your rather immobile units in the open and no anti air and all your gas spend on nonantiair tech, so I believe that if in such a scenario the swarm hosts still can do enough damage to put you in a good spot, the unit is just imbalanced, as your opponent plays a perfect counter but can't beat it.
Void ray openings with oracle for detection sounds like it could beat it as well.
More air means less ground, right? So it means that Hydralisk becomes more viable and effective. And mutalisks probably too
And it's ok if there are no anti-air atack for locusts, or there will be no counter to them in ZvZ, TvZ and PvZ
Just a question of stats. Right now Hosts are crazily powerful antiground units with a lot of "range". In the HotS Custom, they were nice pushing tools that could be used in a lot of situations, but could be beaten with a good ground army or by abusing their down time. And if it doesn't work out, just add more downtime until it's balanced. A unit really does not need to straight up suck against something to be balanced. Blink Stalkers don't have a real counter in WoL PvZ, but they also don't really counter anything hardcore. Immortals are straight up overpowered statswise vs ground, but Terran/Zerg can deal with them without air because of the long production time etc.
Also I'm not gonna talk about the viability of Hydralisks based upon some stream experiments. Right now, I don't see a reason why HotS Hydralisk should be better than WoL Hydralisk. Against airbuilds Zergs best reaction was Infestors or mutas or corruptors in WoL, Hydralisks are not better vs airrushes than in WoL and not better against lategame air, as you will have creep anyways so the speed upgrade won't make a difference, unless your opponent was crazy good with creep denying.
Just watched a match on Huskys youtube page with Stephano against some other Zerg. Wow the swam host just completely changes the game for Zergs. It was almost a TvT.
Wow, it's hysterical to me that the OP was arguing Hosts were too weak. Hahahahah. I thought I was actually going to read an argument to the effect that the design was just uninteresting.
People are actually debating them being too strong, based on real beta experience. They are strong-ass units.
On September 08 2012 20:27 FakeDeath wrote: SH is okay. I think.
But what happened to the Hydralisk??? No one is using them at all?????
Why would they? Nothing changed, their speed upgrade doesn't provide anything that good creepspread didn't do better in WoL already in defensive situations. For offensive situations you still need siege/high dps units, what the hydralisk is not. For reinforcing (=issue of costefficiency), roaches and zerglings are still better, unless the opponent has a lot of anti air.
So basically Hydralisk is still the shitty unit as it is in WoL. How sad such an iconic unit fallen when it was such a mainstay unit in BW.
hydras wasnt good in BW. ppl used them in builds purely because of lurkers.
On September 09 2012 08:03 suejak wrote: Wow, it's hysterical to me that the OP was arguing Hosts were too weak. Hahahahah. I thought I was actually going to read an argument to the effect that the design was just uninteresting.
People are actually debating them being too strong, based on real beta experience. They are strong-ass units.
there strong yes, but ONLY when u have mor than 20 of them.
On September 09 2012 00:27 Existor wrote: I think, in ZvZ there will be no mass SH+festor battles, because Banelings are official counter to swarmhosts!
lol. Let's put all the swarm hosts in a big ball? Perhaps you could spread them out? Just like in bw where you had to spread out lurkers or they'd get owned by one storm.
On September 08 2012 20:27 FakeDeath wrote: SH is okay. I think.
But what happened to the Hydralisk??? No one is using them at all?????
Why would they? Nothing changed, their speed upgrade doesn't provide anything that good creepspread didn't do better in WoL already in defensive situations. For offensive situations you still need siege/high dps units, what the hydralisk is not. For reinforcing (=issue of costefficiency), roaches and zerglings are still better, unless the opponent has a lot of anti air.
So basically Hydralisk is still the shitty unit as it is in WoL. How sad such an iconic unit fallen when it was such a mainstay unit in BW.
hydras wasnt good in BW. ppl used them in builds purely because of lurkers.
On September 09 2012 08:03 suejak wrote: Wow, it's hysterical to me that the OP was arguing Hosts were too weak. Hahahahah. I thought I was actually going to read an argument to the effect that the design was just uninteresting.
People are actually debating them being too strong, based on real beta experience. They are strong-ass units.
there strong yes, but ONLY when u have mor than 20 of them.
Hydra's are shit strong LOL. That's why you could just mass hydra's in zvp (with a control group of muta's) and be fine versus anything the toss throws at you.
Hydra's are also the core unit versus mech in zvt. Hydra's rocked.
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
On September 09 2012 08:03 suejak wrote: Wow, it's hysterical to me that the OP was arguing Hosts were too weak. Hahahahah. I thought I was actually going to read an argument to the effect that the design was just uninteresting.
People are actually debating them being too strong, based on real beta experience. They are strong-ass units.
i never argued that they were too weak, i argued that their design was complete and utter failure that cannot be balanced. I also stated that depending on the situation, they are either way overpowered or way underpowered, and due to the design cannot be balanced, they will always feel balanced badly either way. And they have to be overpowered stats-wise to try make up for all the other fatal design flaws to not make them utterly useless. I also feel like the constant need of Blizzard to change them from when they first introduced them to where we are now (they got changed a third time now, at least for the changes the public can see, in the Beta Patch) seems to prove me right. Thank you for not reading the OP or not understanding it, you might want to read it (again) before you post here again.
I basically agree with the OP, but I like the concept of the unit. It feels very "zergy".
Imho, they should either swarm and spawn lots of small/fast units continuously, or spawn some big ass sturdy units that could actually tank tank-shots. Then they could fill a siege role. Now they're basically buffed infested terrans: slow, low hp high damage units. The best way to use them now is probably for harass/hit'n'run. Burrow them close to an expo, spawn the units and then get out of there.
I think they should be hive tech, melee and have a longer burrow time to compensate for higher HP.
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
hosts are not meant to control space in the same way colos and broodlords are not meant to control space. hosts are meant to force a reaction from ur opponent the way it is currently designed and it is mean as a push type unit or a defensive unit.
the way i see swarm host is you either push with it, defend with it, or harass with it. its not meant to control space since it has no area of effect to do so with.
also i highly dissagree with swarm host not being able to contain someone. they can contain very well actually as long as u SUPPORT them. this is best done with some infestors as back up to stop kiting.
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
hosts are not meant to control space in the same way colos and broodlords are not meant to control space. hosts are meant to force a reaction from ur opponent the way it is currently designed and it is mean as a push type unit or a defensive unit.
the way i see swarm host is you either push with it, defend with it, or harass with it. its not meant to control space since it has no area of effect to do so with.
also i highly dissagree with swarm host not being able to contain someone. they can contain very well actually as long as u SUPPORT them. this is best done with some infestors as back up to stop kiting.
It can control space, unit doesn't have to have AoE attack to be able to control the space... Blizzards intention with Swarm Hosts is exactly what you listed + space control. What happened if you come in a area where Swarm Hosts spawns Locusts? Your units gonna get damaged a lot before they can get to the Swarm Hosts and kill them, same as Tanks, they control the space, but doing it a little bit different.
On September 09 2012 00:27 Existor wrote: I think, in ZvZ there will be no mass SH+festor battles, because Banelings are official counter to swarmhosts!
lol. Let's put all the swarm hosts in a big ball? Perhaps you could spread them out? Just like in bw where you had to spread out lurkers or they'd get owned by one storm.
On September 08 2012 20:27 FakeDeath wrote: SH is okay. I think.
But what happened to the Hydralisk??? No one is using them at all?????
Why would they? Nothing changed, their speed upgrade doesn't provide anything that good creepspread didn't do better in WoL already in defensive situations. For offensive situations you still need siege/high dps units, what the hydralisk is not. For reinforcing (=issue of costefficiency), roaches and zerglings are still better, unless the opponent has a lot of anti air.
So basically Hydralisk is still the shitty unit as it is in WoL. How sad such an iconic unit fallen when it was such a mainstay unit in BW.
hydras wasnt good in BW. ppl used them in builds purely because of lurkers.
On September 09 2012 08:03 suejak wrote: Wow, it's hysterical to me that the OP was arguing Hosts were too weak. Hahahahah. I thought I was actually going to read an argument to the effect that the design was just uninteresting.
People are actually debating them being too strong, based on real beta experience. They are strong-ass units.
there strong yes, but ONLY when u have mor than 20 of them.
Hydra's are shit strong LOL. That's why you could just mass hydra's in zvp (with a control group of muta's) and be fine versus anything the toss throws at you.
Hydra's are also the core unit versus mech in zvt. Hydra's rocked.
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
hosts are not meant to control space in the same way colos and broodlords are not meant to control space. hosts are meant to force a reaction from ur opponent the way it is currently designed and it is mean as a push type unit or a defensive unit.
the way i see swarm host is you either push with it, defend with it, or harass with it. its not meant to control space since it has no area of effect to do so with.
also i highly dissagree with swarm host not being able to contain someone. they can contain very well actually as long as u SUPPORT them. this is best done with some infestors as back up to stop kiting.
It can control space, unit doesn't have to have AoE attack to be able to control the space... Blizzards intention with Swarm Hosts is exactly what you listed + space control. What happened if you come in a area where Swarm Hosts spawns Locusts? Your units gonna get damaged a lot before they can get to the Swarm Hosts and kill them, same as Tanks, they control the space, but doing it a little bit different.
Whats normally happening if an army gets near my Swarmhosts? A few volleys of Colossus/Hellion/random AE fire and the Locusts are dead before they even damagen one single unit. Then I need to run my little Mushrooms away. No... you dont need AE damage to control space. But you need GUARANTEED damage and not locust based damage which is mitigated by deathballing.
Swarm host can't control space. I've seen thors run away from the locusts. How are the hosts going to hold space? They can't hold space in small numbers and would even fail versus mildly mobile units, unless you'd put the locusts on hold position above your swarm hosts, but even then, there's a window of 2-3 seconds to just go for it and run past them.
They can't hold ramps like lurkers could, they can't 'contain' someone at all. Again you can just run past it if you wanted too, locusts are so slow...
But they're ridiculously strong, but what'd you expect from a unit with 55 (?) dps. LOL
hosts are not meant to control space in the same way colos and broodlords are not meant to control space. hosts are meant to force a reaction from ur opponent the way it is currently designed and it is mean as a push type unit or a defensive unit.
the way i see swarm host is you either push with it, defend with it, or harass with it. its not meant to control space since it has no area of effect to do so with.
also i highly dissagree with swarm host not being able to contain someone. they can contain very well actually as long as u SUPPORT them. this is best done with some infestors as back up to stop kiting.
It can control space, unit doesn't have to have AoE attack to be able to control the space... Blizzards intention with Swarm Hosts is exactly what you listed + space control. What happened if you come in a area where Swarm Hosts spawns Locusts? Your units gonna get damaged a lot before they can get to the Swarm Hosts and kill them, same as Tanks, they control the space, but doing it a little bit different.
Whats normally happening if an army gets near my Swarmhosts? A few volleys of Colossus/Hellion/random AE fire and the Locusts are dead before they even damagen one single unit. Then I need to run my little Mushrooms away. No... you dont need AE damage to control space. But you need GUARANTEED damage and not locust based damage which is mitigated by deathballing.
well thats the thing. he needs to bring his whole army if he really wants to engage your say 10 hosts. thats 120-130 army supply to 30 army supply. so IF he decides to kill your 10 hosts (and you can even safe most of them if you unburrow fast enough) you can counter with the rest of your army and kill an expo or something.
...while he proceeds to kill you, as you now have useless 30 army supply hanging around. Thats not what they wanted the swarmhost fo be. They wanted a siege unit capable to push an advantage and break a bunkering enemy instead of "ohm... just expand more and kill him with broodlords". Thats not what it does.
And the Ponit here is: The opponent does not need to "go out and kill the swarmhosts" but just leave a few minor AE units behind to deal with the locusts behind your cannon/depot wall. If you are under siege by 5 Tanks, you HAVE to leave your base or the Tanks will slowly kill off your base (not to mention that you can really abuse positional play). If you are under siege from 5 Hosts it just doesnt matter as they are no thread at all.
The only MU where Swarhosts work as intended is ZvZ as there is no AE/long Range units to prevent locusts from doing some damage. And ZvZ will become swarmhost vs swarmhost.
On September 09 2012 17:45 Charon1979 wrote: ...while he proceeds to kill you, as you now have useless 30 army supply hanging around. Thats not what they wanted the swarmhost fo be. They wanted a siege unit capable to push an advantage and break a bunkering enemy instead of "ohm... just expand more and kill him with broodlords". Thats not what it does.
And the Ponit here is: The opponent does not need to "go out and kill the swarmhosts" but just leave a few minor AE units behind to deal with the locusts behind your cannon/depot wall. If you are under siege by 5 Tanks, you HAVE to leave your base or the Tanks will slowly kill off your base (not to mention that you can really abuse positional play). If you are under siege from 5 Hosts it just doesnt matter as they are no thread at all.
The only MU where Swarhosts work as intended is ZvZ as there is no AE/long Range units to prevent locusts from doing some damage. And ZvZ will become swarmhost vs swarmhost.
You don't just leave "a few minor AE units", if 20 3-3 stimmed/shielded marines with adrenalin glands keep on knocking on your door. Hosts are a serious threat, the locusts stats are borderline broken.
Your arguement is based upon locusts not being able to do damage, but the truth is that they do so much damage so fast that you absolutly need to deal with the swarm hosts, because every wave of locusts is guaranteed damage, unless you have a huge defensive deathball with extreme amounts of firepower.
On September 09 2012 17:45 Charon1979 wrote: ...while he proceeds to kill you, as you now have useless 30 army supply hanging around. Thats not what they wanted the swarmhost fo be. They wanted a siege unit capable to push an advantage and break a bunkering enemy instead of "ohm... just expand more and kill him with broodlords". Thats not what it does.
And the Ponit here is: The opponent does not need to "go out and kill the swarmhosts" but just leave a few minor AE units behind to deal with the locusts behind your cannon/depot wall. If you are under siege by 5 Tanks, you HAVE to leave your base or the Tanks will slowly kill off your base (not to mention that you can really abuse positional play). If you are under siege from 5 Hosts it just doesnt matter as they are no thread at all.
The only MU where Swarhosts work as intended is ZvZ as there is no AE/long Range units to prevent locusts from doing some damage. And ZvZ will become swarmhost vs swarmhost.
Swarm Hosts aren't meant to break down a bunkerline by themselves. They're meant to help your other units break it down. It is completely fine if 5 SHs don't do any damage at all, because they still suck up tank shots and you should be capitalizing on that.
EPT
