EPTOn September 09 2012 18:31 Charon1979 wrote:
Thats exactly what zerglings do at no cost of gas and a lower supply count.
Thats exactly what zerglings do at no cost of gas and a lower supply count.
But they also do it for minerals and larvae.
[D] Swarm host is bad - Page 8
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
But they also do it for minerals and larvae. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
You don't just leave "a few minor AE units", if 20 3-3 stimmed/shielded marines with adrenalin glands keep on knocking on your door. Hosts are a serious threat, the locusts stats are borderline broken. no? a few tanks are more than enough to deal with this before you take serious damage. Also your example is flawed as there is a range advantage, a speed advantage and a huge dmg advantage (more marines can shoot, missile vs instant,...) Your 20 Marine force could even be enough to power through the waves of 10 swarmhosts. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
lol. Let's put all the swarm hosts in a big ball? Perhaps you could spread them out? Just like in bw where you had to spread out lurkers or they'd get owned by one storm. Okay, Swarm Hosts are spreaded and splitted. But Banelings counters EASILY all locusts, allowing you to atack FASTER defenceless Swarm Hosts without fighting with Locusts. I mean, you can avoid time wasting when fighting against Locusts, and kill them with 2-3 seconds, and then walk directly to Swarm Hosts and kill them with minimal losing units. Because it's all about killing Locusts before Swarm Hosts spawn more of them. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:09 Garmer wrote: this could be fixed by lowering the time of the locust respawn and also their life-time in my opinion, this cannot, as the design of the swarm host requires it to cost a lot (of gas) to prevent just massing them. And they are about as bad as the Tempest in direct combat, just without guaranteed damage, less range and stuff. The reason you see the swarm host currently in ZvZ is because the Top Zerg players stream, and they can use whatever they want to win, basically, as a few Roach pokes and Ling attacks give them enough economic advantage that they might as well just bunker up, wait for Viper/Brood Lords and then proceed to collect easy wins. The swarm host has to be a huge investment, which means in a ZvZ where (when equally skilled players fight) every single unit advantage counts, your opponent will have 3-4 more Roaches than you for every swarm host you get. Which means, as soon as he sees the swarm hosts and you don't turtle with a ton of spine crawlers (and even then) he can just decide to go kill you. This gets even worse if your opponent is smart enough to get infestors or banelings for your swarm hosts. So besides the trolling going on in current ZvZ by top players, i see no viable position to play swarm hosts and not die in any matchup. And that investment does not even pay off offense-wise | ||
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Juustokalle
Finland31 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
If you send Swarm Hosts alone with some spines - they OF COURSE will die, same as Siege Tanks alone with a very small support. Why many players sending them alone and losing them? Because they don't understand, that those "Siege Mushrooms" are siege support unit, not a main core damage dealer. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:30 Juustokalle wrote: I completely agree with u Cirqueenflex. I dont know how it would work but what if swarm hosts would have energy pool and zerg could manually choose when to send locusts to the battle. For example u could save energy for 4 locust spawns so u could spawn a mass of locusts to break a siege line or defend ur base. Anyways atm its imo pretty useless unit. ROFL, I love the people that says how Swarm Host is useless unit when it is almost overpowered. People have no clue what they are talking about. If you have 10+ Swarm Hosts, only way to counter those waves of Locusts that are doing so much damage is if you have huge army, so that they get destroyed quickly, or if you have at least 6+ Siege Tanks. If anyone states differently, you didn't see good player using Swarm Hosts, simple as that. Try watching streams of Stephano, Dimaga, Ret and Sheth, to see how useless they are. Even when you first few Swarm Hosts come into play, they are tough to handle because usually you don't have enough firepower to take the Locusts down before they kill some of your stuff. And they are free, so every wave, you kill the Locusts, but they take down few of your units, and that is when you have only 3-4 Swarm Hosts. And no, they aren't as bad as Tempests in direct combat, if they have Locusts they are crazy good, if they don't, they are defenseless, unlike Tempest, that is in direct engagement low DPS units no matter how you look at it. Seriously people, try watching some streams or test your stuff before jumping to conclusions. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:14 Ramiz1989 wrote: ROFL, I love the people that says how Swarm Host is useless unit when it is almost overpowered. People have no clue what they are talking about. If you have 10+ Swarm Hosts, only way to counter those waves of Locusts that are doing so much damage is if you have huge army, so that they get destroyed quickly, or if you have at least 6+ Siege Tanks. If anyone states differently, you did see good player using Swarm Hosts, simple as that. Try watching streams of Stephano, Dimaga, Ret and Sheth, to see how useless they are. Even when you first few Swarm Hosts come into play, they are though to handle because usually you don't have enough firepower to take the Locusts down before they kill some of your stuff. And they are free, so every wave, you kill the Locusts, but they take down few of your units, and that is when you have only 3-4 Swarm Hosts. And no, they aren't as bad as Tempests in direct combat, if they have Locusts they are crazy good, if they don't, they are defenseless, unlike Tempest, that is in direct engagement low DPS units no matter how you look at it. Seriously people, try watching some streams or test your stuff before jumping to conclusions. +1 Swarm hosts are not meant to be burrowed and then just win/lose the game with one wave like banelings do. If you control them properly (reburrow, protect them, focus fire with locusts just to take whatever you can get), they are going to be around and do damage for a very long time. | ||
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Elldar
Sweden287 Posts
Siege tanks is the only things I've seen kill all spawned locusts from 15ish swarm hosts with no damage beeing dealt. However the terran had to match the swarm host count in tanks and pushing forward is volatile. You can not unsiege all tanks and go that will leave you vulnerable against the next wave of locusts. They do give board control. Your opponent has to deal with the swarm hosts to gain that ground they are covering, in other words he must commit his main army in doing so or risk losing units for free. Unless you get caught of guard you can always retreat with your swarm hosts while the opponent is dealing with your locusts. Then burrow again and repeat. Delaying your opponent while still dealing damage and without losing much if you are good at it. Board control means that your opponent can't move freely around the map with small set of units. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 09 2012 22:07 cerebralz wrote: I would like to see the locust attack, instead of a regular ranged attack, leap and attach themselves onto either an enemy unit or building, doing damage over time until the timer runs out or the unit dies. I think that would make it sufficiently different from broodlings to have a seperate role. It also lends itself to more of a zergy, body snatchers, alien type feel where your opponent would rather run away than deal with the locusts. They are sufficently different from broodlings. | ||
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gedatsu
1286 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:02 Charon1979 wrote: As do the swarmhosts... as you cant pool locusts so you have just one wave to tank fire for you. You are entirely missing the point. SH costs one larva and then it can attack indefinitely. Zerglings cost a new larva each time they die. It's like saying that banelings and storm do the same thing. They are very different. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
On September 09 2012 17:45 Charon1979 wrote: ...while he proceeds to kill you, as you now have useless 30 army supply hanging around. Thats not what they wanted the swarmhost fo be. They wanted a siege unit capable to push an advantage and break a bunkering enemy instead of "ohm... just expand more and kill him with broodlords". Thats not what it does. And the Ponit here is: The opponent does not need to "go out and kill the swarmhosts" but just leave a few minor AE units behind to deal with the locusts behind your cannon/depot wall. If you are under siege by 5 Tanks, you HAVE to leave your base or the Tanks will slowly kill off your base (not to mention that you can really abuse positional play). If you are under siege from 5 Hosts it just doesnt matter as they are no thread at all. The only MU where Swarhosts work as intended is ZvZ as there is no AE/long Range units to prevent locusts from doing some damage. And ZvZ will become swarmhost vs swarmhost. under siege by 5 hosts, no threat? is this a joke? do you guys even play beta? swarm host is still super imbalanced, even after nerf | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
There's a lot of gosu micro potential to crush that push, e.g., wipe out a locust wave, dart in with your fast units to snipe hosts, then back out. But it's very hard to get those kinds of timings down without extensive practice against the style. | ||
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BaDMannerS
Bulgaria57 Posts
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
It's a mid-game siege unit, people -_-. The whole point of the unit was to allow zerg to be able to pressure the opponent instead of being forced into a long macro game and rushing to brood lord/infestor. You have no right to complain about it if you are just going to be doing the same greedy opening. I feel the only reasonable nerfs to the swarm host should be to cost or something, if it turns out that it's too easy for the zerg to get swarm hosts to apply heavy pressure while taking 2 additional bases and putting the opponent impossibly behind. That and maybe a reduction in how much benefit upgrades give to locusts, because its pretty hilarious that they get +2. It's still really early guys. The swarm host was designed to significantly change the metagame. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
I feel the only reasonable nerfs to the swarm host should be to cost or something, if it turns out that it's too easy for the zerg to get swarm hosts to apply heavy pressure while taking 2 additional bases and putting the opponent impossibly behind. That and maybe a reduction in how much benefit upgrades give to locusts, because its pretty hilarious that they get +2. Heavy pressure? Really? | ||
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
It just might take to many swarm hosts to make them seem worth it. | ||
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