EPTThat's why I said if.
[D] Swarm host is bad - Page 9
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
That's why I said if. | ||
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YoungNV
Canada18 Posts
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On September 11 2012 06:39 oogieogie wrote: i see swarm hosts as something to widdle a army down or force engagements. Swarm hosts take a while to build up locust so once the locust die you can just go atk the hosts while they do nothing. What zerg should be doing is having zerglings/roachs or whatever defend them while locusts keep coming to help in a engagement or if the enemy doesn't atk then it forces them to move back. It just might take to many swarm hosts to make them seem worth it. This is more or less right IMO, the problem is Swarmhost is a new unit that can be easily massed, so everyone is easily massing them and Terran and Protoss think they have to find a direct counter to Swarmhosts or lose. The problem is that you can't direct counter the Swarmhost because you can just produce Swarmhosts and Queens and be safe vs more or less everything, you have to take advantage of Swarmhost and Queen immobility and force the opponent to answer your Medivac and Warp Prism drops with Zerglings etc. And even Zerglings don't always cut it, because Terrans can drop Blue Flame Hellions and micro the drop or Protoss can drop Sentries, Force Field your ramp and then just Warpgate in Zealots or float their Mothership Core to your base at the beginning of the game and Recall into your main. Once Terran/Protoss stop being dumb, I think Swarmhosts are going to kind of be a Lair Tech alternative to Broodlords, I pretty much Muta/Ling/Bling into Infestation Pit and Hive just so I can go Swarmhost and upgrade to 3/3 and Cracklings and build the free tech casters as needed, Greater Spire doesn't really feel necessary anymore fwiw. Swarmhosts are such a good follow up after Mutalisks, it's almost like Broodlords 200 seconds earlier. | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On September 11 2012 17:36 MoonCricket wrote: This is more or less right IMO, the problem is Swarmhost is a new unit that can be easily massed, so everyone is easily massing them and Terran and Protoss think they have to find a direct counter to Swarmhosts or lose. The problem is that you can't direct counter the Swarmhost because you can just produce Swarmhosts and Queens and be safe vs more or less everything, you have to take advantage of Swarmhost and Queen immobility and force the opponent to answer your Medivac and Warp Prism drops with Zerglings etc. And even Zerglings don't always cut it, because Terrans can drop Blue Flame Hellions and micro the drop or Protoss can drop Sentries, Force Field your ramp and then just Warpgate in Zealots or float their Mothership Core to your base at the beginning of the game and Recall into your main. Once Terran/Protoss stop being dumb, I think Swarmhosts are going to kind of be a Lair Tech alternative to Broodlords, I pretty much Muta/Ling/Bling into Infestation Pit and Hive just so I can go Swarmhost and upgrade to 3/3 and Cracklings and build the free tech casters as needed, Greater Spire doesn't really feel necessary anymore fwiw. Swarmhosts are such a good follow up after Mutalisks, it's almost like Broodlords 200 seconds earlier. In practice, swarm hosts can't break certain compositions, e.g., a critical mass of tanks, because the AE is too great. There, you need to transition into broods to break them down. Then you can rely on swarm hosts once their numbers are down. Related, host/brood/corruptor is all kinds of silly. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 11 2012 20:33 Kambing wrote: In practice, swarm hosts can't break certain compositions, e.g., a critical mass of tanks, because the AE is too great. There, you need to transition into broods to break them down. Then you can rely on swarm hosts once their numbers are down. Related, host/brood/corruptor is all kinds of silly. In an idea world, Z are played to be swarmed and T/P are suppose to be played with the method explained above. But the problem lies that both High Templars and Tanks are relatively weak units. And thus in this case, making SH to be a real OP unit as it simply overrun its warpath. | ||
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triforks
United States370 Posts
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BaDMannerS
Bulgaria57 Posts
The pressure SHs currently apply is to contain and starve the opponent to death until he GGs out :D Just a game winning unit it is, nothing more :D | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
Not a unit of 3-food worthy, I thought. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
I've seen Thorzain handling swarm hosts and they didn't seem to be threatening at all. Mid-sized marine/tank armies took no damage at all from 10 or so "seiging" swarm hosts. Once a wave passes, scan, stim and move in, kill all swarm hosts, and move back or pursue even further depending on what else does Z have. Not a unit of 3-food worthy, I thought. With viper's abduct it becomes a lot stronger. On creep too, because locusts moving 40% faster | ||
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On September 12 2012 06:27 usethis2 wrote: I've seen Thorzain handling swarm hosts and they didn't seem to be threatening at all. Mid-sized marine/tank armies took no damage at all from 10 or so "seiging" swarm hosts. Once a wave passes, scan, stim and move in, kill all swarm hosts, and move back or pursue even further depending on what else does Z have. Not a unit of 3-food worthy, I thought. It's a positioning thing. It sounds like the zerg was too close to Thorzain's army and/or didn't have any supporting units to protect the swarm hosts between waves. Also, the locust upgrade for swarm hosts really helps as it allows zerg to position the hosts farther away to keep their opponent from sniping them in between waves. | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
 Why blizzard??? Not to mention the WH... ugh | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On September 12 2012 07:19 baba1 wrote: And we had the lurker Why blizzard??? Not to mention the WH... ugh It would be really hard to fit the lurker into SC2, which is why we don't have it. | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:05 Xanbatou wrote: It would be really hard to fit the lurker into SC2, which is why we don't have it. How? We fit the freaking colossus and banelings in, but lurkers are too hard? Blizzard has all the resources you could reasonably have in this situation. It's their job to find a way to make these things work, but we get the warhound, marauder, colossus, sentry etc instead. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12041 Posts
On September 12 2012 07:19 baba1 wrote: And we had the lurker Why blizzard??? Not to mention the WH... ugh The lurker unless they changed the unit clumping in SC2 would be either the most overpowered unit in the game or completely useless. | ||
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Xanbatou
United States805 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:13 Serpico wrote: How? We fit the freaking colossus and banelings in, but lurkers are too hard? Blizzard has all the resources you could reasonably have in this situation. It's their job to find a way to make these things work, but we get the warhound, marauder, colossus, sentry etc instead. Because it can't have the same role it did in bw. Zerg already has plenty of counters to mass light units in the form of banelings and infestors. Giving the lurker the same role would be too much. If the lurker were to be introduced, it would have to function as a siege unit to break greedy turtles and/or push an advantage. This is basically what the swarm host already does. To make the lurker do this, you would have to give it enough range so that it could hit a protoss or terran wall without being able to be hit by tanks our colossi behind the wall. However, given the nature of the lurkers attack and when the unit would become available, having such a range would be really overpowered. | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On September 11 2012 20:33 Kambing wrote: In practice, swarm hosts can't break certain compositions, e.g., a critical mass of tanks, because the AE is too great. There, you need to transition into broods to break them down. Then you can rely on swarm hosts once their numbers are down. Related, host/brood/corruptor is all kinds of silly. Compare the time, tech, bases and resources necessary to support Broodlords over Swarmhosts, you're producing Broodlords 200 seconds later after investing in a Spire, Greater Spire and a Hive and you're paying 100 more minerals, 150 more gas and 1 more supply on at least 1 more base for a slower unit that doesn't force detection. Swarmhosts aren't meant to be used on their own, they're meant to be used in conjunction with other units in the same way Broodlords are meant to be used with Corrupters, Infestors and Queens, when you can lay down a swarm of Lochusts to cover for Banelings or combine them with Mutalisks then you can start breaking the opponent's position. They're also incredible at distracting your opponent's siege and long range units in order to neutralize the Lochusts, which you can utilize by dropping your enemies main with Roaches and wreaking havoc on his mineral line. I can't tell you how many games have basically come down to Swarmhosts, Queens and Spine/Spore Crawlers camping outside the opponent's natural while I Roach drop his main well before a Hive could ever go online. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
 This art was done by ArtMagix on deviantarthttp://fav.me/d5eb3tj ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aBTim.jpg) Full art (clickable) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5WC5L.jpg) | ||
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Cirqueenflex
499 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On September 12 2012 16:41 Existor wrote: Add this image as banner to 1st post? Full art (clickable) Uh, that must be the image of JackBlack. Simply amazing! Love that guy! His Zerg art is stunning. | ||
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
On September 12 2012 17:22 Cirqueenflex wrote: if you want it in a different position in the OP, just tell me Just post before the wall of text And not need to link to me. I've just contrasted/recolored a bit, but original artwork was done by ArtMagix (link in previous post) | ||
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