On September 08 2012 16:27 zoohairZ wrote: I've been saying the same thing.. I think the design of the Swarm Host is pretty flawed. It's overpowered in some cases where it shouldn't be yet it still sucks at what it's meant to do...which is be a siege unit.
Really? Wondering how you came to that conclusion that they suck at being a Siege Unit, when all of the top Zerg players are destroying with Swarm Host because of their Siege range.
Well, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't exactly mean that it sucks at being a siege unit itself, I meant the time window where it can be used to lay siege in each matchup is very short, which ultimately makes it feel like a rather gimmicky unit that can either end up working really well or really bad depending on what build the opponent is doing. Refer to the OP's post where he mentions these timing windows.
On September 08 2012 07:00 IPA wrote: I think the Swarm Host is borderline OP (masters zerg here).
When pros begin using it properly (like Stephano) with dancing / timed burrows when a new cycle is up / etc, they will be seen as fairly OP I think. What about something like...
- lower DPS (possibly substantially) - increase burrow speed - increase locus speed - Leave the locust upgrade or make it 5 seconds of additional life instead of 10
I love the unit and would like it to remain strong but balanced.
i think ppl are just not finding counters to hosts yet... i mean its been like 1 or 2 days beta has been out? and ppl are already crying OP before trying out all possible counters to it. ive been watching a fair amount of streams and ravent with hunter seeker missles on the terran mech side just tears swarm hosts apart. carfully placed widow mines are also a good ticket to get rid of them or prevent set up.
on the protoss side storm with other splash units is by far the best option. the problem for protoss tho is that 2 base hosts come way to fast so getting the proper deathball for them is hard, but it can be done if scouted, and 2 base hosts are pretty easy to scout... get an observer early and just prevent them from setting up outside of ur base while preparing ur tech. stargate tech is also very good to get rid of them especially with oracles revealing all burrowed units.
that being said if they do nerf hosts then i really hope they increase movement speed of locusts and the hosts themselves. right now there only useful if u have a certain critical mass of them and anything less than that would render them useless.
i find it so painful that ppl, protoss players in particular, are crying imbalance when they are still in WoL strategy mode... i mean no shit ur going to get stomped if ur massing immortals expecting roaches and instead u get 10 hosts that u cant kill because immortals are useless against them. most players that get stomped from hosts that ive seen have like 2-4 immortals sitting there trying to kill locusts (with no observers i might add)... i mean srsly, its beta. trying something new to counter new emerging strats...
this is especially true when ppl match up against stephano. clearly ppl think he is going to roach all in and when he doesnt they blame the swarm hosts instead of there bad decision to make blind immortals.
its funny tho because the irony of all this is that pre beta everyone was saying how sucky swarm hosts were going to be and how lurkers would be better. beta hits, swarm hosts are now OP. i find that hilarious tbh. ppl honestly need to start thinking outside of the box for once.
Well, people haven't found a counter yet, but I have to say I was really surprised when in between the "Custom HotS Map" and then closed beta start, they buffed Swarm Hosts stats even more, as it was one of the best units on the Custom Map imo. But with the AA gone... a voidray + an oracle(or an observer) should destroy any Host strategy that isn't played with massive anti air support (what you need a 3base economy for).
On September 08 2012 16:27 zoohairZ wrote: I've been saying the same thing.. I think the design of the Swarm Host is pretty flawed. It's overpowered in some cases where it shouldn't be yet it still sucks at what it's meant to do...which is be a siege unit.
Really? Wondering how you came to that conclusion that they suck at being a Siege Unit, when all of the top Zerg players are destroying with Swarm Host because of their Siege range.
Well, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't exactly mean that it sucks at being a siege unit itself, I meant the time window where it can be used to lay siege in each matchup is very short, which ultimately makes it feel like a rather gimmicky unit that can either end up working really well or really bad depending on what build the opponent is doing. Refer to the OP's post where he mentions these timing windows.
I dunno I am seeing zergs like idra/stephano (those are the only 2 i'm really watching as they use the swarmhost good) make swarmhosts and use them for the whole game and not really once do I ever feel the swarmhost looks like a bad decision to keep making. Swarmhost with hydra/viper support is incredibly powerful from what I have seen :D.
they just need to make the locusts an underground unit. maybe a weaker baneling that has burrow move. that way you need detection to deal with swarm hosts or you're helpless.
On September 08 2012 17:34 TheDraken wrote: they just need to make the locusts an underground unit. maybe a weaker baneling that has burrow move. that way you need detection to deal with swarm hosts or you're helpless.
I was thinking about something like that the first time I saw Swarm Host in HotS alpha. But not to make them banelings, Zerg already has enough AoE, since it is supposed to be the swarming race. Make it like in Alpha, have around 100 hp, do same damage as now, but have them be melee, and let them go underground and pop-up when they reach the enemy. That way, enemy is forced to have detection, since right now if enemy has high firepower, Locusts alone can't reach them, but with that change, Firepower won't be enough when the Locusts will already be in melee range of your units.
But to be honest, even if they leave Swarm Host as it is, I am quite happy about it. My new favorite unit, really like how it is played.
I think Locusts should consistently be able to do damage (and not just die on their way), but should do way less damage.
This could be achieved by making them a) faster or b) tankier (and of course nerfing their damage).
My favourite approach would probably be to make them move faster and spawn more (and make them smaller if possible).
So the Swarm Host would spawn 3-4 Locusts with HP scaled accordingly, movement speed slightly faster than Stalker and like 6 or 7 damage. Basically Stim-Marines with more HP and less attack speed and range.
Would also feel Zergier with more but weaker and faster units.
On September 08 2012 16:27 zoohairZ wrote: I've been saying the same thing.. I think the design of the Swarm Host is pretty flawed. It's overpowered in some cases where it shouldn't be yet it still sucks at what it's meant to do...which is be a siege unit.
Really? Wondering how you came to that conclusion that they suck at being a Siege Unit, when all of the top Zerg players are destroying with Swarm Host because of their Siege range.
Well, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't exactly mean that it sucks at being a siege unit itself, I meant the time window where it can be used to lay siege in each matchup is very short, which ultimately makes it feel like a rather gimmicky unit that can either end up working really well or really bad depending on what build the opponent is doing. Refer to the OP's post where he mentions these timing windows.
I dunno I am seeing zergs like idra/stephano (those are the only 2 i'm really watching as they use the swarmhost good) make swarmhosts and use them for the whole game and not really once do I ever feel the swarmhost looks like a bad decision to keep making. Swarmhost with hydra/viper support is incredibly powerful from what I have seen :D.
Swarm host/corruptor is also really good. I was originally aiming for infestor/swarm host but it turns out that you simply need more swarm hosts. -_-
My favorite thing about swarm hosts is that they cost 200/100. It makes the infestation pit very versatile. From a spending perspective, you can make swarm hosts and bank gas for tech or you can make infestors and bank minerals for drones.
On September 08 2012 16:27 zoohairZ wrote: I've been saying the same thing.. I think the design of the Swarm Host is pretty flawed. It's overpowered in some cases where it shouldn't be yet it still sucks at what it's meant to do...which is be a siege unit.
Really? Wondering how you came to that conclusion that they suck at being a Siege Unit, when all of the top Zerg players are destroying with Swarm Host because of their Siege range.
Well, I didn't make myself very clear. I didn't exactly mean that it sucks at being a siege unit itself, I meant the time window where it can be used to lay siege in each matchup is very short, which ultimately makes it feel like a rather gimmicky unit that can either end up working really well or really bad depending on what build the opponent is doing. Refer to the OP's post where he mentions these timing windows.
I dunno I am seeing zergs like idra/stephano (those are the only 2 i'm really watching as they use the swarmhost good) make swarmhosts and use them for the whole game and not really once do I ever feel the swarmhost looks like a bad decision to keep making. Swarmhost with hydra/viper support is incredibly powerful from what I have seen :D.
i have watched quite some Stephano streaming lately. And especially in his ZvZ, it feels like he is just toying with his opponent, rather than seriously playing, as his opponents are usually of rather small caliber. He sits on two bases, get swarm hosts, takes his third, turtles further up until he has a mass of spines/spores, some swarm hosts and then vipers (plus Brood Lords maybe). But it is not the swarm host that makes him win those games, it is his macro, combined with roach aggression if the opponent takes an early third, plus ling runbys. At which point he could make any unit he wants, and he wins the fights convincingly even without swarm hosts by just using Vipers to pull in important units into his spinecrawlers.
Stephano made mass Queens troll builds look like a viable strategy BEFORE they got the range buff, and against better opponents than what he is playing now against (at least most of the time). So take anything you see on his stream with a grain of salt, as it is hardly ever representative of the true strength of what he is using.
Also, as someone pointed out, people are not used to countering the swarm host yet. You do not even need a void ray to completely crush it, basically anything used in a smart way will do. Colossi can defend against it forever, blink stalker can blink on top of it, i have seen iNcontroL laughing at them while crushing a swarm host contain with sentry immortal. Sure, he lost a few Zealots to the initial waves, but then he just forcefielded the locusts to death (as in defensive forcefield, and once he had an observer ready he just moved out, forcefielded around the swarm hosts so they could neither run nor locusts attack, then his immortals killed the swarm hosts absurdly fast)
So don't measure the units strength just based on the stream of the very top zerg players
I've played with Swarmhost some more and I don't think it's OP from a usage perspective, if they reduce the DPS and the range of the Lochusts I think it'll balance out. From a design perspective, I'm really worred that we wont see Hydralisk Dens (I know, I know) Spires and Ultralisk Caverns at this rate because you can just stay on Infestation Pit and Hive for Infestors, Swarmhosts, Vipers and whatever your tier 1 unit of choice is. I mean I don't really have any reason not to just 18 Gas for Zergling Speed, Lair, Baneline Nest and then take 3 more Gas for Baneling Speed, Infestation Pit, Swarmhosts and then tech up to Hive for Adrenal Glands, 3/3 upgrades and just produce Infestors and Vipers as required unless my opponent goes mass air, which I can still pretty much destroy with just Queens, Spore Crawlers and the odd Infestor.
The army composition just feels really flaky, because you just spend all of your Gas on Swarmhosts, build Queens non-stop, dump all of your minerals into Zerglings (I like getting Drops too) and any time they get cute with mass air you just start adding on Spore Crawlers to repel air and be a wall for your Swarm Hosts, it's pretty faceroll.
On September 08 2012 20:27 FakeDeath wrote: SH is okay. I think.
But what happened to the Hydralisk??? No one is using them at all?????
Why would they? Nothing changed, their speed upgrade doesn't provide anything that good creepspread didn't do better in WoL already in defensive situations. For offensive situations you still need siege/high dps units, what the hydralisk is not. For reinforcing (=issue of costefficiency), roaches and zerglings are still better, unless the opponent has a lot of anti air.
How about making the locusts it spawns an untimed locust, so it can live past 30seconds and fight on, once the locusts finally die the swarm hosts make another. perhaps nerf the the health/damage if going this route? I don't know
I think there are a few things you can change for the SH to make it a more viable siege unit and some of the ideas stated are pretty good.
1 - make locusts be able to climb cliffs, protoss and terran have the options and its a harass/siege-ing option that i think zerg are missing out on. 2 - leave the host as it is for the most part, the move speed and HP seem to be fine. 3 - leave the upgrade for life span the same (10 seconds) as 5 would be too short and not worth it, plus the cost more then compensates for the added time. (200+200) 4 - leave the locusts with ground only attack, as zerg has pretty good options for AA in the mid game (queens, spores that are mobile, infested terran and relatively fast air options) 5 - leave locusts as light units, with a 10% speed boost and its misley 2 or 3 range and a 20% damage reduction (from 16 to 12, up to 15 with +3s)
I think if locusts would be able to climb cliffs it would make the unit a much better option, as then instead of rushing with your full army head on, you could take a handfull of SHs off to the side and harass those high ground positions that are otherwise not possible without overlords/seers or air support. It would open up more avenues of strategy for the locusts to be used with including siege-ing opponents into their own base and forcing them to move off their high ground to deal with the hosts. also the locusts having the poor range they do should keep the extended life upgrade as it makes them more viable to be useful as units. Their health seems to be legit at 65 as too much and its more then a hydra or roach...it should be in line with a ling or broodling. I think the 20% damage reduction is enough of a level to make it still be a force to be reckoned but not one to be an ultimatum. The Hosts should of course remain invisible while burrowed as that goes along with all the other units, you can easily change the animation of the unit to make the locusts unburrow or come out of the ground from within the host instead of its egg sacs exposed to make it more in line with the burrow theme.
Its not a bad unit concept, the zerg are a swarm that throw heavy numbers at you to overpower and outnumber you, they are still small and weak as individuals. just like in war3, though not much of a comparsion, the undead relied on summoned units to outnumber you as well, its like the scourge and the swarm, its a numbers game... I do see a future in this unit, much more then some of the other ones so far.
I would rather have the lurker. But from what I've seen, the swarm host actually isn't AS bad as I expected. I've been seeing some cute rushes with them versus protoss combined with the creep drop from overlords and even spines to assist them (sheth game).
I think if they don't overnerf them they could provide for some interesting play. They're a lot better than the other units like the war hound and oracle (two abominations).
That said I'd rather have the lurker, it's better in almost every way.
On September 08 2012 21:48 wcr.4fun wrote: I would rather have the lurker. But from what I've seen, the swarm host actually isn't AS bad as I expected. I've been seeing some cute rushes with them versus protoss combined with the creep drop from overlords and even spines to assist them (sheth game).
I think if they don't overnerf them they could provide for some interesting play. They're a lot better than the other units like the war hound and oracle (two abominations).
That said I'd rather have the lurker, it's better in almost every way.
well as good as the lurker is, its a complete different unit concept. swarm host is able to attack safely into midgame T and P lines with the huge range while lurker with range 7 (?) would just be killed if they tried to attack into tanks/collosi. lurker are much better in defending drops and choke points though. best would be blizzard gives zerg both perhaps in LOTV.
EPT
perhaps in LOTV. 
